Tanglewood Wellness Center for fasting

[lydias]

Anyone attend this fasting Center or know of someone who had sucess?
They are in Panama now but used to be in Maryland

[lydias]

I know I have read some good stories about this water fasting center but also keep finding more that are disturbing.

I called Doug Graham's website and they do not recommend this place at all. Said they have heard way too many bad stories and bad recovery program.

Then I asked a natural hygenist who's really experienced and I didnt tell her what I already knew. She just gasped for air and said no way , not there.

It was the most affordable place to go so I dont know where to go for water fasting now.

Dont mean to be negative but thought I would pass it on.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I second the above, have heard quite the same...

[SchoolOfRAWk]

and water fasting is SERIOUS.

[dreamrawalwz]

What have you heard? Could I see some information? I'm just wondering because I know someone personally that has been there and said it was WONDERFUL and the best experience and plans to go back.

[kralcx]

check out my reply under the thread titled,

Fasting in Panama at Tanglewood

[lydias]

Did the one with the success story go to Panama?

I read on the other threads that his Maryland one was shut down cause someone died.

but anyway, I am sure out of a bunch of people that go there, there are ones that have a good experience. But I am really sick and I wouldn't want to take a chance in another country by myself.

This was written by one raw foodist:
I do not recommend Loren Lockman for a wide variety of reasons including but not limited to irresponsible fasting procedures, sexual harassment of women fasters, theft and poor recovery services. There have been far too many people to come forward with horrendous fasting experiences at Tanglewood for us to ever suggest you fast there

But if things have changed, I'd love to hear some good stories and go! I thought someone on his thread was going to internship there but not back yet.

[lavendarJ]

I have no input to give here because I'd never heard of the place; just adding this thread here for anyone who may not have seen it:

http://rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=27101&highlight=fasting+in+panama

[lydias]

to:kralcx
I read your post.
Thank you so much for the information. I cannot believe it!

I was communicating with Loren through email and some of the things said just kind of got me thinking....He didn't like me questioning him on anything, acted like everyone could fast, and I with chronic fatigue could go right back to work after a 6 week stay which I highly doubt, and when he found out I
am not coming next week he ended the email pretty much. Also, I asked him about a girl who he helped loose like 100 lbs and asked him how is she doing now that she is home....He ignored that question.

Anyways, I have chronic fatigue and have bad candida too. I've been told fasting will help me. I've been eating raw but it has not turned it around yet and its been a year. Can you tell me if you feel better after fasting and what you are able to eat now. How much weight did you gain back? (I would not like to loose) How hard was it for the 21 day fast and refeeding as far as symptoms?

I have tried a primarily fruit diet and I blow up like crazy and blood sugar goes buzurk. The more I research an all fruit diet is not good. I like a little fruit.

So sorry you had to go through all that but I am thankful for your information.

Lydia

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I have heard he has no business at ALL running fasts, and should not be doing it. From other professional water fasting doctors who have met him.... I did know a guy interning there who was liking it, but he was also having an affair and was really a fringe-type, and I only emailed him a few times.

I would never ever send anybody to Creative Health Institute either, and a few "love" their experience. Usually really new agey types who just accept it all as God's wishes. I however saw dying people not get the care they need, and far too much negativity and disorganization, etc. And the groups did too. Never go there unless it's a total last resort, I swear.

[road2raw]

The only thing anyone would ever hear (or read on an institution's website) are the glowing testimonies. And I'm sure there are plenty of them. But it is also only fair and right that the negative ones get some publicity, too. Even though you don't want to 'bash' anyone, I think it's important to always get ALL the information you need; the good, the bad and the ugly. Only then can people make truly informed decisions about what is best for them personally. If someone wants to try out a place, for whatever reason, it's wise and judicious to go armed with all the facts.

[kralcx]

lydias,

When I arrived at the Tanglewood Wellness Center I weight 162. My

lowest weight was 134. Before I left the Center last Saturday it was

up to 138. I still am at 138 a week later. My appetite is still not

back to normal yet.

I can't say that I 'felt' better after the fast, because I didn't

'feel' bad before the fast. However my foliculitus (which is a scalp

condition) did improve greatly during the fast.

The hardest part for me(and most frustrating) was the refeeding.

Eating the sweet fruits made my face break out and my vitiligo (skin

condition) worst. It was frustrating because I told Loren of this, and

yet I still had to eat the sweet fruits (or don't eat at all).

After doing this 21 day water fast and having no bowel movement; also

feeling the plaque matter in my body. In the future I will do either

colonics or take some type of Herbal Fiberblend to keep the toxic

eliminations moving OUT of my body rather than letting it stay in my

body and suffer.

There was a few days of extreme weakness and some heart palapatations,

however overall the 21 days went rather smoothly.

As to your comment about Loren not liking to answer questions, let me

share some of my insights about this with you. When Loren gets

questioned and he feels like he is being boxed in, he will often call

over an intern (putting the intern on the spot) and have the intern

defend Loren's position. For example during one of Loren's lecture a

guest questioned Loren about his refeeding program. When Loren felt

cornered he called over the intern in the room to help him win his

case. He had the intern sit down next to him and then Loren asked her

how old she was. The intern is a beautiful woman near 50 with not one

grey hair. She looks easily 10 years younger (I also most add that she

is older than Loren and looks much younger than Loren). Loren was

trying to make the point that, he is right, and if you follow his

program you too can look this good. However the fact is (I saw this

intern's before fasting photos) this intern was a beautiful, older,

heavier set woman before she started her fast. So after the fast she

remained an older, beautiful, woman who looked great because she lost

about 20 pounds. EVERYBODY looses some weight while fasting. Loren

used this intern to try and jusify his position without once answering

the guest's question. Just yesterday after I posted my comments about

Tanglewood on this forum I receive an email from one of the interns at

Tanglewood. This intern wants to know why I am so antagonistic toward

Tanglewood; why do I criticize the staff. This intern is telling me

that I should stay on a raw fruit diet, etc., etc. This particular

intern and I didn't talk much during my time at Tanglewood. I

certainly didn't complain to him. What would be the point, all the

interns just follow Loren's orders anyway. There would be no point in

complaining to an intern. I find it very strange that this intern

would email about things that are none of his concern with me the same

day I make a post on this forum about Tanglewood?? Could it be that

Loren is hiding behind his interns again?? Could it be that Loren told

his intern to write me that email?? Just something for everyone to

think about.

I just want anyone thinking about going to Tanglewood to hear both

sides of the story.

[lavendarJ]

I just want to say that I really really am glad that you survived that experience kralcx...

[lydias]

to:kralc

Those are some strange things!! and scary
Thanks again and I hope you recover well!

[lydias]

School of Rawk-
Which Creative Health Institute are you referring to?

[SchoolOfRAWk]

The raw one: www.creativehealthinstitute.com

[durianrider]

as someone whom suffered with candida and blood sugar problems for years..i finally ditched em after adopting dougie militant normal fat intake of 10% calories. i eat up to 40 pounds of sweet fruit flesh a day now. ive seen so many people get rid of candida when they ditch the fat intake. never seen anyone not succeed.
on skin conditions..i aint no expert but stress is a big skin irritant no? if we are stressing out about doubts of fruit value etc..then we will break out..i aint seen anyone have issues from a diet of juicy fruits and greens. rather ive seen people overcome mega hurdles if they remain strong and persist.


fasting attracts people of all walks of life. some dont have great health to start with. if someone has a problem on the fast, the fast is often blamed. like a diabetic that didnt tell the interns that they were insulin dependent..serious business. or a faster that has a problem and gets really paranoid and works themselves into a frenzy..

i applaude the fasting professionals. even if loren has a bad rep, its still a big responsibility.

i can recomend dr dougs annual fasts in costa rica. its a blast to fast there!
my only complaint is that its too far from australia! we need to kidnap dougie and stick him outback!

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I agree that the lower fat helps health.

I honestly don't think "Dr." Graham looks healthy and I think his ideas are kind of ridiculous and unfounded. To assume that people can assimmilate all their DHA from greens is dangerous, imho. That is like saying everybody on earth will assimmilate B12 from eating an unwashed carrot. They just won't. It's irresponsible. And that sea vegetables and green smoothies are not good? I just honestly think he has issues, like Loren, wierdly enough. Anybody going largely fruitarian from any diet will experience benefits. When I sweet juice fast, candida and all, I feel awesome. Doesn't mean the candida is totally gone. Fruits are pretty much a cleanse. I'd love to see the long term results of his diet, honestly. Going from raw brownies and decadence to his diet you WILL feel better. It doesn't mean it's healthy, long term, and definitely not for all. I know that he has NOT been all raw 27 years, like he says he has been in his book, though. Why must people do stuff like that?

That said, we can all learn from everybody.

[durianrider]

great points schooly.

has anyone been all raw for 27 years? lol! does dougy recomend cooked food?

like many raw leaders, dougy had shoddy health to start with. raw buys us time and improves what we have..but if your bring me a beaten up bicycle frame..there is only so much i can do to it..

just like victoria aint marathon thin..but look at her before she went raw...

doug is 54..i reckon he looks great. ive trained with him..he has the intensity of a gymnast on steriods! hardcore steroids! lol!

we all have issues..i have plenty! lol!

you give talks worldwide for 30 years and see what dougy see's...its heartbraking stuff! he deals with it well. stress is a killer and dougy faces it everyday with his writings and convictions..but i dont know anyone getting the results he does..he does fasting retreats and coaches world class athletes..

b12 is produced and absorbed in a healthy body..have you read 811?

how can we eliminate candida if we continue to eat the cause of it?

we ate green soups at fasting camp regularly...
i hear where your coming from though...

[LightLover]

Durianrider, how is your bloodsugar/insuline now?

LL

[durianrider]

i ran 50km from 900m to 3820m and return solo on 5 mangoes for breakfast..drank water from streams and didnt eat anything the whole 8.5 hours it took me.

it was the highest peak in central america. mt chirripo. the guide book says allow 3 days. i did up and back in time for a 30 banana late lunch smoothy! lol!

yeah my blood sugar levels are pretty good id say! lol! from someone that had to eat every hour! lol!

even dougie has a slice of raw vegan pizza now and then. he is a gun gourmet raw chef. yet lives off bananas and lettuce leaves...i think its great to have raw prep skills..cos then if we feel like a nut pate or veg pate or pizza, lasagne etc we can make it. and for our family and friends..you wont convert many by serving up chopped bananas or manoges and tomatoes...lol! but over time thats what long term raw fooder lean towards. every raw plant food has its place in our raw journies..

cooked rancid oils and toasted acid grains
gave us digestive pains and brain drains
all the animal products we got sold
from years of lies we got told
we've overdone em and now overcome em.
they served their purpose
and now we know they are worthless

juicy fruits n greens
will get us back into our tightest jeans!
add some exercise
and your highschool friends wont believe thier eyes!
they will ask 'what is your secret to avoiding super size thighs!'
its easy you say, exercise powered by fruit highs!

the skeptics will never get it
them open to improvement? forget it!
we cant convince those that dont want it
best we just be the example and live it.
youll be suprised by how many dont give a ...

dr d, he got the facts
he did a backflip over the drug push'n quacks.
they are still floundering on their backs
saying ' eat 5 food groups and jump thru the system hoops'
'be a good consumer, rather than a radical 811 raw fooder!'
waiting for science?
that aint defiance!
on no text book should we have reliance
nature gives us all the clues
and in all the colour hues
fruits and greens
aint eatn no refried beans
we all ready have enough damaged genes
for future generations plant some trees
mega fruit mono meals..say YES PLEASE!
vote with your dollar
and become a nature lov'n scholar
yet still blend in with ya ralph lauren polo collar
now ive gone off topic
time to visit a nation that is tropic
expand your fruit knowledge
and learn how to forage
the best food is free
straight off the tree
and athletic raw vegan low fat...
thats where its at!

[LightLover]

Hmm I guess your rest heart rate must be 50 or lower?

So, when will there be a raw Tour de France winner.... No doping, just
raw-doping. Raw food. Tree food.

I am wondering if you ever meet people doing the same extreme sports as you
(in the same timespan) that are cooked, or are the most raw?

I have to say it is a good argument from you against grains: that there is not so much life in grainfields as there is in forrests/bushes.

ll

[SchoolOfRAWk]

great points schooly.

has anyone been all raw for 27 years? lol! does dougy recomend cooked food?

like many raw leaders, dougy had shoddy health to start with. raw buys us time and improves what we have..but if your bring me a beaten up bicycle frame..there is only so much i can do to it..

just like victoria aint marathon thin..but look at her before she went raw...

doug is 54..i reckon he looks great. ive trained with him..he has the intensity of a gymnast on steriods! hardcore steroids! lol!

we all have issues..i have plenty! lol!

you give talks worldwide for 30 years and see what dougy see's...its heartbraking stuff! he deals with it well. stress is a killer and dougy faces it everyday with his writings and convictions..but i dont know anyone getting the results he does..he does fasting retreats and coaches world class athletes..

b12 is produced and absorbed in a healthy body..have you read 811?

how can we eliminate candida if we continue to eat the cause of it?

we ate green soups at fasting camp regularly...
i hear where your coming from though...

B12 is produced and absorbed in an ideal body, yes. Many also become deficient in it, raw or not. It is totally irresponsible to just assume everybody is getting it from apples or 8/1/1 and not supplements and more. I know Lymes Disease patients who are using raw and natural resources; they take supplements, shots, eat high nutrition low fat raw and still their levels don't improve. On shots. This is due to the Lymes. It is truly irresponsible to assume B12 and DHA are converted always from fruits. That is outrageous and disastrous, sorry. Completely miseducated advice that can cause permanent damage in others.

Ann Wigmore got the results Doug did. So are many others.....

Don't get me wrong: I am glad Doug is helping people, and that's all I am going to say. And if he hasn't been all raw 27 years, why does he insist he has in his writings? I know people who have met him, and they know he hasn't been. He said so. He writes he has. He's also very very insecure, I think, if he does things like not appear when other raw foodists talk about the benefits of smoothies or green drinks, etc, because he won't share a forum with them at all. That is strange, sorry.

[durianrider]

you dont have to apoligise..

he wont share a forum of people dont want to hear 811? lol! he has his own forums anyway..
i would really like to interview those people that lived dougies advice and didnt succeed..please get em to email me at veganbobster@gmail.com

how should dougy look anyway? lol!
i help people reach their goal body health and id like to help dougy..what do you think he could improve. i reckon he's super fit and good look'n. what you reckon? maybe some plastic surgery on that gymnast finger he broke..yeah it can scare little kids..

doug has been on the vegan raw warpath for decades. i reckon he could do with more sleep. and his immigration hassles with roz..i dont reckon that adds to health..maybe doug should tell immigration that the added stress is affecting his beauty sleep...

fruits and greens..want seeds? eat seeded fruit. then your not eating rancid fats..if that is a concern for anyone. to some it aint.
no one is saying just eat fruit forever..
its fruits 'n' tender shoots as the mainstay. soothing food.
soothy smoothy schooly!

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I don't look ideal and I'm not saying he should be perfect. Victoria doesn't. Kulvinskas doesn't. They still have great information. I just hear Doug held up as the vision of health is all. That is different, and I wouldn't immediately run up to him and say, "Hey what are you doing?" because I think he looks like he's missing something is all.

I know plenty who aren't getting their B12 and omegas from greens. They are not following his diet 100% because when you read that that is only his "source" for them and that everyone gets it from them, it is scary and you don't want to follow his program because that sounds ridiculous and is totally inaccurate and potentially quite damaging.

However, a high fruit, low fat diet will totally cleanse anyone, and of course is safe for periods. Like juice fasting, etc.

By forum I mean the raw conferences. Where many share the stage and each is given their time. Many who don't 100% agree will get up there and have respect for each other --- some are pro-supplement, others aren't, etc --- and they are all raw vegan. But Doug won't do this. It really looks like he's threatened by so much as a green smoothie, and totally insecure. It's ridiculous that they are frowned upon by him, it is all just greens and fruit!?

[LightLover]

I can only repeat what I said in another thread. And I am gonna add to this,
that the discussion like the one between schoolofrawk and rawdurianrider,
are caused by the fact that they are not being executed on a top-down level.
The fact that the opposite rawfood leaders (Cousins, Graham, Clement)
are NOT discussing their different religions openly, is causing
the effect that this needed discussion is taking place on a lower level
a multiplied times. By us.

What a waste if time! Thousends of people discussing 80/10/10 against low sugar diets , and it could all be replaced by the discussion of a few men!
Or we could wait what they have to discuss, and then biuld upon that.
But they won't. Only preaching for the own religion and the own money.
If you exceed a certian amount of followers you have a moral obligation
to defend your theories against opposites.

So this gives me a very bad taste in the mouth, nevertheless the work they all have done (I am not denying that, but it is not my topic).

But you can't do your work without referring to or discussing the work of another. That is a seperation strategy, and it is not the direction we should choose in this splintered world.
The other is your limit, and you will only be defined by discovering him/her.

Earlier comment from LL:

---
Durianrider, I think the "rawfoodleaders" (cousins, Graham) really should speak openly with eachother about their big differences in dietapproach. As long as they are only publishing about their own church, and not interview eachother about the big differences (Cousins & Clement: low sugar / Graham: high sugar)
it is not good for the rawfood community. We don't want to become like religion.
---

LL

[LightLover]

Also read my earlier thread, this item has touched me from the beginning
of my appearence in the raw world:


http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=17642&highlight=young+graham


LL ;)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I can only repeat what I said in another thread. And I am gonna add to this,
that the discussion like the one between schoolofrawk and rawdurianrider,
are caused by the fact that they are not being executed on a top-down level.
The fact that the opposite rawfood leaders (Cousins, Graham, Clement)
are NOT discussing their different religions openly, is causing
the effect that this needed discussion is taking place on a lower level
a multiplied times. By us.

What a waste if time! Thousends of people discussing 80/10/10 against low sugar diets , and it could all be replaced by the discussion of a few men!
Or we could wait what they have to discuss, and then biuld upon that.
But they won't. Only preaching for the own religion and the own money.
If you exceed a certian amount of followers you have a moral obligation
to defend your theories against opposites.

So this gives me a very bad taste in the mouth, nevertheless the work they all have done (I am not denying that, but it is not my topic).

But you can't do your work without referring to or discussing the work of another. That is a seperation strategy, and it is not the direction we should choose in this splintered world.
The other is your limit, and you will only be defined by discovering him/her.

Earlier comment from LL:

---
Durianrider, I think the "rawfoodleaders" (cousins, Graham) really should speak openly with eachother about their big differences in dietapproach. As long as they are only publishing about their own church, and not interview eachother about the big differences (Cousins & Clement: low sugar / Graham: high sugar)
it is not good for the rawfood community. We don't want to become like religion.
---

LL


They actually have done this, though. I have a huge video of Clements, Graham and Wolfe all sitting down and talking on a panel. It's pretty neat. They actually, at the time (of course), demonstrate respect for each other. They all look good, respectively, but Wolfe shines and glows the best. Of course, he's younger and darker (olive skin) and all that, too, so it doesn't mean we should all chow on cacao butter all day..... Maybe it's because of that that Graham refuses to talk to others as long as they present their views that energy soup is healthy and other such "nonsense" to him, I don't know.

I think honestly that there's no way for all to come together on it. Animal Rights goes through this, regular nutrition goes through this, feminism goes through this, and I think raw foods is going to. Obviously, many are into low sugar. And yet I would agree with Graham in that freakin natural sugar is not the same as other kinds. I mean, sugar feeds cancer. How are Norman Walker's cancer patients, not to mention Dr. Lorraine Day, curing cancer with tons of carrot juice, then, which is "high sugar"? I just don't agree it's the same as white sugar, and the proof is in the cancer reversal, to me.....

It's all fascinating. Most agree on raw vegan, but I guess if they all had the same shtick, we'd only know about one of them, and not all the different people. God bless them for promoting raw vegan. I don't think Doug's diet is awful and I can stand to learn from it. BUT long term and in terms of deficiencies and even strictness (agave nectar or a green superfood are not the devil, sorry!), I think a lot of it is scary, as I've already written about. Likewise, the amount of mac nuts some people eat on raw is scary, too. Not one thing works for everyone, so it's great that there are more avenues to ponder. I mean, if my friends husband did 8/1/1 he would be under 100 lbs in a month. He could never ever do it. It would speak more to me, than him, but I would definitely 100% supplement if I did the 8/1/1.....

But I don't think it's necessary they all agree on one way of being raw. Even MLK, Jr and Malcolm X didn't agree.....

[LightLover]

Great answer school.o.r;

It's maybe the best we pick our mental food from all places, likes birds.

LL

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Yeah, I think it's cool we can all kind of hash it out on our "lower" level (LOL!)

I was so ticked when another feminist told me she thought it was cool that feminists all didn't agree (like about porn and all that stuff), and were divided. Boy did she upset me! And I still am tired of it. Animal rights conferences are all divided, but like here's me, total AR activist and anti-PETA, and stuff like that. So, s**t happens. I LIKE thinking for myself, ultimately, it just stinks it divides us.

I think people will do what speaks to them most. And when they don't lose weight or become B12 deficient in 4 years, etc, they will take it from there. We all kind of go that route. We just have to remain open. :-)

[durianrider]

tour de france winner without drugs? never! lol!
ever heard an olympic gold medalist at medal ceramony talk about world issues? me either..amazing athletes but chemically powered.

im the only one i know im my sport of ultra cycling that is 100%rv. the rest do rice, coffee and pills.

schooly..you still didnt answer my question on your statement..
how should dougy look? if you could airbrush a photo, what would you do to him?

someone goes under a 100lb if that they are a gun runner, fasting or thats just how they are naturally. doug went to 95 after a 52 day fast..he is 160lb now. yeah 811 gets people to thin...lol! cant build muscle on it or be a super athlete..
if it works for super athletes, supports enough nutriton and calories for someone like me that can train 20 hours in a day and burn 16000 calories...then how come it wouldnt work for a sedentary person longterm?

oh those people you mentioned with problems, they werent even follow the program? yet they had problems if they did?

here is an anology..
here is a map. this is how to get to san diego on the 1. people are sending you postcards that the trip was awsome and they are having a ball. yet there is a bunch of people saying that its a scam and youll get mugged or eaten by penguins if you ride your bike that far..
we have 2 groups to listen too. those that are getting the results and those that are chasing their tales and waiting for a superherb like the medical model.

dougy has the thousands of testiomonials. he has the fitness and the physique. his program can be done by anyone on any budget. same with allissa's. eat fruit and greens. keep everything else raw. use your body for transport more often. become an athlete..etc. doug hasnt got society obtaining the raw lifestyle. its the raw chef's and chocolate priests that have. and im grateful for em. cos its spreading worldwide. my opinion is that the raw marketers get society to obtain the raw idea. and the raw athletes help people sustain it.

put all the raw guru's out in the desert and give em bikes. who you reckon is gonna make it out? the fruit bats will! alissa will be leading the female charge i reckon!

read the book and answer your questions. we know how to make yummy foods for our family and friends. thats cool, thats fantastic! and when it comes to succeeding on raw long term and looking and fealing our best what are we doing about that. what is our action plan?

as i feel we are all in this for the long haul.
everyone has the ablitity and option to look absolutely stunning. whatever that is to that individual.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

schooly..you still didnt answer my question on your statement..
how should dougy look? if you could airbrush a photo, what would you do to him?
I already responded to this, I feel. I really don't want to pick apart someone's appearance. I pointed out that overall, he doesn't strike me as overly healthy looking, that is all. Sometimes that is genetics, so it makes me uncomfortable to pick someone apart.


then how come it wouldnt work for a sedentary person longterm?
The issue isn't whether someone is active or not, it's whether they will get everything they need. On greens and fruit and no supplements, you have a very very strong chance of become DHA and B12 deficient over time. Both are very difficult for most to convert, even from straight B12 and omegas. Monkeys don't have this problem, generally, so to say that WE will get DHA from greens like bonobos is totally irresponsible and outlandish.

when it comes to succeeding on raw long term and looking and fealing our best what are we doing about that. what is our action plan?
A wise raw vegan diet, of course! ;)

[durianrider]

oh so now its a genetic possibility that dougies appearance doesnt win you over..and maybe not his lifestyle..ahh! maybe we shouldnt bag someone if we aint prepared to explain it..what you reckon?

i aint no bonobo..i ride a carbon fiber bike and chat on forums..:)
personally i dont believe in supplements. i believe in treating the cause over the symptom..ie if someone is pale and weak,,get em some sun and rest and better eating and thinking habits.

i believe in living as close to mother nature as i choose and getting everything from her i need. and for me thats 100% raw plant foods. i aint into pills and magic potions and the hype that the raw vegan diet aint enough and we have to do injections etc or that the fruit demons are out to demineralise us..lol!

ive come from chronic fatigue, catching a bus 1 mile to school to riding 321 miles in a day, solo.

my 5 year goal is to become the leading ultra athlete in australia. im already the leading ultra cyclist..but that aint hard..cos the competition is small..its too much effort to get someone to ride for 2 days on 40 minutes sleep.

you say greens and fruits aint enough? whats better than that?
we need products from plastic bottles that sacrifice freshness for shelf life and marketing ability?
what other animal reaches for pills etc. or gets a jab in the arm each month..
biologically adapted whole, ripe raw plant food..thats all we need.

so i reckon id be going backwards if my diet wasnt enough. yet im just moving forward and looking healthier. been vegan for 6 years and 100% rv for coming up 2 years. so something is working for me and lets me power thru 1000 mile weeks..

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I don't think it's necessarily bagging him. Or genetic. I think he looks like he's malnourished. Like I said before, I wouldn't run up and ask what he's doing. I would for some others. That is all I meant and all I said, the rest is your putting words in my mouth. I know others who agree, too. That is all.

I think you are well on your way to meeting your goal, and I think it's awesome you are on a raw vegan diet and excelling. We need athletes like you!! :-) I would be curious to see what your B12 and omega levels are in 10 years on this same diet is all.

you say greens and fruits aint enough? whats better than that?
we need products from plastic bottles that sacrifice freshness for shelf life and marketing ability?
what other animal reaches for pills etc. or gets a jab in the arm each month..
biologically adapted whole, ripe raw plant food..thats all we need.
We are not monkeys. We have been domesticated. Just like how you can't really release a golden retreiver in the woods without any problems, supplements are not evil. Most are whole foods, in fact. Our soils are NOT what they were. You canNOT get the same things as you could 50 yrs ago. I'm not saying raw organic greens and fruits aren't a superior diet. I'm saying that not everybody can just live on those and not grow deficient.

Are you saying people like my best friend Peggy should lay around going paralyzed, not taking B12 supplements and shots, because she's more loyal to "pure raw" than she is to her own health? There are raw foodists like that. The goal is HEALTH. That is a sick mentality, honestly. I'm *not* saying you have that or are suggesting it, but certainly some raw leaders/hygienists say to never ever take anything in a bottle because monkeys don't. That is ridiculous. People think raw is strange enough. Raw with no common sense just gives them more to criticize, kind of like religions that won't get blood transfusions for their dying children, even if it means saving their life. Stuff like that.

[durianrider]

malnourished? what is a sign of malnourished? you can see someone bicep veins and their 8 pack? lol!
cos i was watching the sprinter on tv tonight, both female and male and you could see all their abs and bicep veins...just like dougy. he is an athlete.

you never hear athletes saying other athletes look to lean. its more like 'wow you bitch/bastard! how did you get your abs so cut!'

i like the fact that dougy wears as little clothing as possible. what other raw male speaker could appear as a sports model?

my gran tells me im malnourished too. she says' oh i can see all the muscles in your stomach and your ribs too!' lol! yeah im malnourished too.
its the common thing..non athletes saying athletes look to thin and vice versa. whom is right? whom is fittest..

feel free to get patty to get in contact with me. id love to meet someone that is 'doing all the right things' and still having issues.

what is the b12 level for a raw vegan? and how do we test for it? what other factors do we have to consider?
i did a national tv show and they announced my b12 'deficiency' nationwide! lol! ive got a stomach fat deficiency too. you can see my abs! what is normal? society normal? no thanks.

sure the soils aint the best. neither is the air. thats why we need to keep fat levels down to ensure max o2 transfer and delivery into the cells. we need to eat as close to nature and as organic as possible. every bit helps.

supplements have their place. imho they are for people that arent prepared to take their health in their own hands and have time out. what person is willing to sleep 16 hours a day for a month. or forage wild food or fast for 30 days? we dont live in a health focused society, i understand that. and thats where pills and magic potions can come into play. but personally i put my health first. i aint a slave for the system that offers us nothing in the end but subsidised chemo etc.

dougy recomends pills to keep the person going till they find out the cause. personally i think finding the cause today is better. leave the pills on the shelf and pick up something from nature. dehydrated aint whole. lets get that straight. you cant put a whole food in a bottle. you can put a raw food in a bottle but it aint whole. unless you can think of one. cos i cant.

plenty of stray cats and dogs out bush in australia....the biggest strongest cat i ever saw was out bush. maybe 5th generation raw cat. no cans of whiskys and frisky's. just biologically adapted raw food.

today i was hunting durian in the organic orchard. saw gold plated dragonflies, spiders mak'n love and purple and blue butterflies.
ate durian from under the tree it fell. gobbled longons off the branches.
i have a perspective of nature that few have, so i can understand the doubts. ive slept naked on a boulder in a river all night once. layed naked in the rain on the bare earth..

maybe im wrong. but i cant help believe that 'mother nature never broke the heart that loved her'

[Conscious Midwife]

Maybe a rule of thumb regarding fasting should be that if it requires supervision then maybe it's too extreme to be doing. But I don't know:confused:

I'll be doing a Ramadan fast in late September. It a no food and water fast all day for a month, but the fast is broken every evening. No supervision required, just a lot of prayer;)

[durianrider]

i used to think the same..until i saw average people become supermodels in their own right...

just like an intense exercise program...its helps to be supervised to get the best out of it and answer any quesitons that will arise during the program/fast.

dr doug has fasted thousands..
does anyone know any other raw leader done that?
is dougy the only one fasting people for 20-35 days?

[Conscious Midwife]

My above post is in the wrong forum. I meant to put it in the spot where the getleman was talking about the incidents at Tanglewood.


Anyway

Now I just wanna ride a BIKE

GONNA MANIFEST A COOL ONE TOO, and get me a snazzy green and fuscia helmet to wear. Riding a bike is on my 40x40 list but now I'm thinking I wanna be a rider. I remember feeling awesome when riding as a teen, and we would ride for miles on everyday Sears variety ten speeds that we didn't have to lock up, no helmets no fancy clothes no water bottles. (But we did refuel at the 7-11:eek: )

[LightLover]

i used to think the same..until i saw average people become supermodels in their own right...

just like an intense exercise program...its helps to be supervised to get the best out of it and answer any quesitons that will arise during the program/fast.

dr doug has fasted thousands..
does anyone know any other raw leader done that?
is dougy the only one fasting people for 20-35 days?

I think Gabriel Cousins has fasted a lot of people. Also Brian Clement in the Hippocrates institute.

LL

[durianrider]

raw leader..brian is cool but he aint raw and doesnt recommend it...

just checked to tol website. juice fasting is available.

does dougy stand as the only fasting raw leader?

[LightLover]

raw leader..brian is cool but he aint raw and doesnt recommend it...

just checked to tol website. juice fasting is available.

does dougy stand as the only fasting raw leader?
---
I think Gabriel Cousins has fasted a lot of people. Also Brian Clement in the Hippocrates institute.
---
LL

[Yammy]

Hi All, I'm at Tanglewood right now actually....

I have been fasting for 23 days and have 8 more to go...

It's no secret that I don't like Loren, and cannot wait to get out of here and back to Toronto.

Hey Kralcx!

How are you doing now that you've been home for awhile? I've lost 23 lbs so far, putting me at 142 lbs, and am starting to feel pretty tired/weak when it's hot, but other than that I'm ok. I'm scared about how eating will be when I get home, although I intend on staying 100% raw.

[kralcx]

Hey Kralcx!

How are you doing now that you've been home for awhile? I've lost 23 lbs so far, putting me at 142 lbs, and am starting to feel pretty tired/weak when it's hot, but other than that I'm ok. I'm scared about how eating will be when I get home, although I intend on staying 100% raw.


Hey Yammy! Hang in there; congratulations on the weight loss. I think you'll be fine once you get home. I actually went to Toronto and wanted to try out the Butler's Pantry, however I had a colonic earlier in the day so I couldn't go.

When I got back home it took me a while to get my appetite back to normal, however I'm doing well now and starting to put back on weight.

I'll be starting the Purification Program soon.

Take care, Yammy.:)

[RawChicky]

schooly..you still didnt answer my question on your statement..
how should dougy look? if you could airbrush a photo, what would you do to him?
I already responded to this, I feel. I really don't want to pick apart someone's appearance. I pointed out that overall, he doesn't strike me as overly healthy looking, that is all. Sometimes that is genetics, so it makes me uncomfortable to pick someone apart.


then how come it wouldnt work for a sedentary person longterm?
The issue isn't whether someone is active or not, it's whether they will get everything they need. On greens and fruit and no supplements, you have a very very strong chance of become DHA and B12 deficient over time. Both are very difficult for most to convert, even from straight B12 and omegas. Monkeys don't have this problem, generally, so to say that WE will get DHA from greens like bonobos is totally irresponsible and outlandish.

when it comes to succeeding on raw long term and looking and fealing our best what are we doing about that. what is our action plan?
A wise raw vegan diet, of course! ;)


IMHO a diet of pure fruit and greens is not going to make one more deficient in B12 than a diet of high fat or fancy raw vegan foods. Neither diet provides b12. Just sayin

[durianrider]

im a 100% raw vegan. im believe thats all we need..ie raw plant food.
i believe that a clean body produces and absorbs sufficient b12 etc.

im riding 321 miles solo in a day for fun. this aint normal..
my b12 'levels' are lower than the 'norm'. but so is my stress, body fat and ageing..lol!

lots of ways to live.
pick one and go with it.

[treetopsjen]

Hi there All! :)
I have just returned to the UK from Panama, where I did an internship at Tanglewood with Loren.

I also had read all the extremely 'dodgy' things before going....and due to this I very nearly did not go!.....However, I am so very glad I still did go as I will treasure the experience forever and have learnt so much without having one single even hint of negative experience there.

I have no idea what it would have been like to do an internship there in the past but that is what it was like for me and the 3 fellow interners and other guests there at the same time as me also loved their experiences as far as I know, with quite a few wishing to return or stay on.

This is coming from someone who is not even 100% committed to raw foodism/what Loren recommends for various philosophical reasons, so I do not think I am someone who is just being 'taken in' by it all.....however, I still have complete respect for what he taught, whilst I was there and Loren's approach.

Erm - maybe those having negative experiences there are louder than those having positive? I don't know - can only speak for myself. :))

Well - any of you out there who are thinking of going there and would like to know more....please feel free to message me :)))
Good Luck!
Jenny :)

[emilia]

Everything I say here is true to my own mouth and my own experience...
Tanglewood is an ideal place for becoming conscious and harnessing authenticity and well-being!

True water fasting is the first step toward complete health, & an ideal way to become truly raw!