I hope this is "in bounds" as a question

[dustandbreath]

Last night I came across a site that showed you how to make vegan dishes. I started watching, mistaking vegan with "raw." It obviously was not a raw site. But I heard the chef/doctor explain that there are benefits to some steamed veggies over raw. NOT that it is better, and NOT that they don't lose some nutritional value (and enzymes), but that there were certain helpful properties (don't remember the specifics) that are magnified when cooked that we don't get when raw. Is there truth in that? I didn't get the drift he was knocking raw/living. Again, I am not trying to promote another plan, just trying to understand truth. If this is not eligible for this site, and the post is squashed, no biggie. But if I can get a balanced answer, that would be even nicer.;)

[muse]

Maybe phyto chemicals are emphasised in heating? What is it about tomatoes when they are cooked, that so many Western docs say they are excellent for health? Can't remember now.

Even wise teachers such as David Wolfe acknowledge raw vegan is not optimal for every person. It would be ridiculous to assert it is.

But with 85% or more of the enzymes lost upon cooking something, I can't afford that.

[RawChicky]

Very few nutrients become more available to the body when cooked, but PLENTY of nutrients become less available or at least that's what I've heard

[Rawkinlocs]

Hey,

Well, that's said a lot of certain veggies, mainly the cruciferous veggies such as cabbage, broccoli, cauliflower, etc. But the thing is, the nutrients are available in raw form, but some of those foods are more difficult to digest in raw form and therefore, are said to be more beneficial when cooked or steamed. Some have even stated as much as if a particular food is THAT difficult to digest in raw form, perhaps it was never intended for human consumption (something to consider) but rather for other vegetarian animals who CAN digest them more properly! It could be a case of all things God created are good, but not all things are expedient for us, so to speak!

But with raw, you can marinate them and/or dehydrate the marinated veggies for a very similar effect to steaming. For example, kale or collard greens...if you take a leaf and massage sea salt and a little olive oil (or even just the salt) into the leaf...after a while, you will see the leaf begin to slightly wilt and break down...the longer/more you do that, the more it will break down and it will look just like it was steamed. So, there are still alternatives to cooking.

I also know with tomatoes they say you get lyprocene (sp?) from COOKED tomatoes...but it's still present in raw ones but you can get even MORE out of it simply by blending/pureeing them into a sauce of some sort - like the raw marinara sauces for example. I also read recently that lyprocene is present in watermelon especially when allowed to sit out on the counter a bit before cutting it.

Hope that was balanced enough for ya! ;)

[dustandbreath]

Some have even stated as much as if a particular food is THAT difficult to digest in raw form, perhaps it was never intended for human consumption (something to consider)

But with raw, you can marinate them and/or dehydrate the marinated veggies for a very similar effect to steaming. For example, kale or collard greens...if you take a leaf and massage sea salt and a little olive oil (or even just the salt) into the leaf...after a while, you will see the leaf begin to slightly wilt and break down...the longer/more you do that, the more it will break down and it will look just like it was steamed. So, there are still alternatives to cooking.

I also know with tomatoes they say you get lyprocene (sp?) from COOKED tomatoes...but it's still present in raw ones but you can get even MORE out of it simply by blending/pureeing them into a sauce of some sort - like the raw marinara sauces for example. I also read recently that lyprocene is present in watermelon especially when allowed to sit out on the counter a bit before cutting it.

Hope that was balanced enough for ya! ;)

Hey, that was a terrific post! And you crack me up ("If it is THAT difficult . . ." i really did laugh!:D ). As for the other stuff, it gave me some good leads on thinking in different ways. I do wish there was a resource that looked at all of this and had a kind of "interplay" without all the hippity hoppity posturing of 'my way is best' you get sometimes. For that matter, this forum has been pretty great, and the next best thing. Just the treatment of different issues isn't all laid out as fully as a book might be.

Just drives me to the site more!

[RawVegan4Health]

A lot of nutrients in greens are not available for digestion because they are encased in the cell walls of the plant, and this cellulose is a very strong substance that normal chewing does not break through properly to get enough of the nutrients out. Think of it in terms of chewing a bit of salad until it is a creamy paste. If you think you have done this, spit it out and see if you actually did it. Chances are you have not gotten there yet. Cooking breaks down these cell walls, but it is far too easy to overcook these greens and then the nutrients are themselves broken down and actually become harmful chemicals. This is why a pot of stewed greens sometimes smells bad, this is the "bad stuff". The proper window of opportunity when cooking between not cooked greens and overcooked greens is extremely small, and few people hit it right unless they really know how to cook greens (think trained chef). This is where the magic of Green Smoothies really happens, because well blended greens release these nutrients from the cells walls with a strong enough blender, and these nutrients are in their raw state and not broken down by cooking and converted into nasty stuff.

Thus greens are a common food you hear "HAVE" to be cooked, but this is not true. The people saying that simply aren't drinking green smoothies. They probably never even heard of them.

ETA - Tomatoes were already mentioned, and the fact that if blended well enough (strong blender) then the lycopene is also released without cooking. About the only case I can think of for strongly recommending cooking an item is for things like beans or grains. these items are indigestible in raw form, and would cause some discomfort if eaten raw. They can be sprouted, but then they are more of a plant in a baby "green" form if you ask me, and not the beans or grains they once were (my opinion). My question is, why are we eating beans and grains in the first place if you can't eat them naturally? Sure, they have fiber, so do other plants that can be eaten in raw form. Protein, same goes for other plants that can be eaten raw. The thing to cinsider when someone says you HAVE to cook to eat to live, find out from them exactly WHAT they think you are missing. you will easily find an alternative food that is known to contain whatever they say is missing, or find another alternative (like blending for example).

[Chickadee]

I agree with Rawkinlocs & RawVegan4Health and only want to add that fermenting things like cabbage, broccoli and cauliflower is an alternative method of making the enzymes available without cooking.

[dustandbreath]

Very enlightening, Chick and RV4H, I appreciate your input. RawVegan, is there something in print to back your excellent explanation up? Not that I disbelieve at all, I just like to look at sources. Chickadee, is fermenting those items worth while? Do they taste all right?

I have noticed a few people mention "is it worth eating if it has to be cooked." While I have committed to raw (who knows for how long, but I am there right now), I can't help but have little questions in my head like: "if we have enzymes already stored in our body, maybe they are there FOR eating cooked food." Not that you go overboard and load up on McFatty Burgers and Oil Fries, etc, but balancing some cooked with raw would seem to be a possibility. People have been cooking for millenia. As to the nutritional needs being met with raw, is it possible that your body can't possibly use every single bit of vitamin and nutrient it gets, and flushes it out, kind of like when you take vitamin supplements. So that with nutrition still being IN cooked food (especially steamed) along with the raw you eat, you get what you need? Just wondering.

As for raw food, man, I love coming home with a big haul of fresh produce and putting it away in fridge and cabinets, and not worrying about meat blood dripping and rotting and . . . GROSS! Rreally, I LOVE seeing all them veggies and fruit, etc. We have no dehydrator, but do have a champion juicer and basic blender and processor and grinder and chopper, so that keeps us busy.

But I do miss some of the flavors of cooking things (even meaning purely vegan dishes. We are still cooking for our children and they are not vegan. Actually, my DW is struggling quite a bit going 100%. She hasn't since about the first week (almost a month ago). She wakes up each day thinking she will, though. She is just not a veggie person like me. But is trying the green smoothies (ours never look green, though, are they supposed to?)

[dreamrawalwz]

Very enlightening, Chick and RV4H, I appreciate your input. RawVegan, is there something in print to back your excellent explanation up? Not that I disbelieve at all, I just like to look at sources. Chickadee, is fermenting those items worth while? Do they taste all right?

I have noticed a few people mention "is it worth eating if it has to be cooked." While I have committed to raw (who knows for how long, but I am there right now), I can't help but have little questions in my head like: "if we have enzymes already stored in our body, maybe they are there FOR eating cooked food." Not that you go overboard and load up on McFatty Burgers and Oil Fries, etc, but balancing some cooked with raw would seem to be a possibility. People have been cooking for millenia. As to the nutritional needs being met with raw, is it possible that your body can't possibly use every single bit of vitamin and nutrient it gets, and flushes it out, kind of like when you take vitamin supplements. So that with nutrition still being IN cooked food (especially steamed) along with the raw you eat, you get what you need? Just wondering.

As for raw food, man, I love coming home with a big haul of fresh produce and putting it away in fridge and cabinets, and not worrying about meat blood dripping and rotting and . . . GROSS! Rreally, I LOVE seeing all them veggies and fruit, etc. We have no dehydrator, but do have a champion juicer and basic blender and processor and grinder and chopper, so that keeps us busy.

But I do miss some of the flavors of cooking things (even meaning purely vegan dishes. We are still cooking for our children and they are not vegan. Actually, my DW is struggling quite a bit going 100%. She hasn't since about the first week (almost a month ago). She wakes up each day thinking she will, though. She is just not a veggie person like me. But is trying the green smoothies (ours never look green, though, are they supposed to?)

This may be a little OT, but I wanted to comment on your enzyme part. Our bodies do store the enzymes. Enzymes are LIFE. If you eat cooked food you will use up the reserve and thus degeneration. Better to have raw living foods that already have the enzymes you need to digest so you can keep those reserves and stay young. That's my basic, brieft, general explination.

[muse]

I do think green smoothies should be green. Maybe add more greens? Mine are packed with kale...no way could they be anything but green.

[Rednurseceo]

Thanx for ideas y'all.

What about sweet potatoes? Is that OK to eat raw? haven't tried it, but used to love it cooked.

[RawVegan4Health]

A good source for the Greens info is Victoria Boutenko's book Green For Life. In there she provides a ton of information about greens, and even lists nutritional information for raw greens that are hard to find. As for the alternative fiber sources for grains and beans, the USDA lists fiber contents for raw fruits and vegetables, listing their fiber content. If you like the TV show Good Eats with Alton Brown, there is a show dedicated to cooking greens where he goes into pretty good detail about the delicate nature of cooking greens and how they tend to get overcooked. Just mentioning it in case you may have already seen it. I just remember that he talked about how the nutrients break down into some foul smelling not so healthy stuff on there. So I guess that's my reference for that!:p

[Chickadee]

Chickadee, is fermenting those items worth while? Do they taste all right?

Think sauerkraut or kimchee, that's the general taste of most fermented vegetables. If you like the taste of those things now, then yes, it tastes alright. If not, then either you won't like them or you may develop a taste for them as time goes on.

Regarding enzymes, in The Blending Book by Ann Wigmore, she says:


Enzymes are divided into two main groups: metabolic and digestive. Metabolic enzymes act as catalysts, promoting or speeding up the numerous chemical reactions in the body. They are also responsible for the building and repairing of cells, among other functions. Digestive enzymes are present in the digestive tract, and are responsible for breaking down food.

Humans are born with certain amount of enzymes; we can also get them from food. Enzymes obtained this way help to digest what we eat. If we don't get enough enzymes from our food, we must draw on our supply of metabolic enzymes to aid in digestion. This mean there are fewer enzymes available for other functions in the body, such as cleansing and repair. This enzyme imbalance eventually leads to illness, including allergies, obesity, heart disease, and some forms of cancer.

Just food for thought. :D