View Full Version : soy
03-23-2005, 12:47 PM
a friend just send this to me and I thought you guys may want to read it. i havent even read it yet...
03-23-2005, 01:17 PM
wow! i have never heard of this guy but I LIKE HIM!! very informative. Thank you for sharing Alissa!
03-23-2005, 01:54 PM
Oh, Heather, you've got to get to know John Robbins (as in Baskin & Robbins 31 Flavors ice cream fame -- but he's definitely balanced the karma of the harm his family's legacy has done to American health). His book, Diet for a New America has become a classic, and he's a great speaker.
I'm confused, though, about soy in a raw food diet. Alissa? Or can someone explain how we would eat it? I can find frozen edamame (Trader Joe's) and, sometimes, TJs has fresh edemame, but I was under the impression that it had been cooked. Somehow, I thought I'd read somewhere that it can't be digested. Is it just the dried that's indigestible? Help!!
03-23-2005, 03:02 PM
soy has to be cooked to make it consumable -personally I still like SOME soy products-like miso,tempeh, and shoyu-and I think that soy "meats" and "ice cream" and "dairy products" are helpful to the meat eaters out there -but I am still suspicious of processed anything -especially soy -so I stick to the 3 fermented varieties (mainly miso and nama shoyu because of my raw diet),but also MAKE SURE that its not gmo!!!
Sharon in Colorado
03-23-2005, 03:11 PM
I've read somewhere about isolated soy protein being bad, and Rebecca Wood, a whole food author and chef confirmed it in her book. I used to use isolated soy protein a lot several years ago. I have a feeling that it's the processed stuff that is a lot more dangerous. Surely, the Chinese are mostly eating the whole beans and the sauce, and not much else.
All the talk about the dangers of soy has made me stay away from lecithin, something I used to help lower my cholesterol. Now I wonder if it's okay. However, I did notice that when I had my fruit shakes with lecithin, my stomach hurt, and it doesn't hurt without the lecithin.
Helen Of Tennessee
03-23-2005, 05:32 PM
Since I already have thyroid disease I avoid soy. On a rare, rare occasion I will get a little in a dish that someone has made at our raw potluck dinner.
Thyroid Disease: The Dangerous Downside of Soy Products
Phytoestrogens Anti-thyroid agents
I have 11 more articles pertaining to this. So to play it safe, I'm staying away from soy. My body won't be missing any nutrient, that I can get in another food, if I don't eat it.
<>< Helen of Tennessee
03-23-2005, 05:50 PM
the potential GMO factor, that I get more hot flashes, not less when I eat it ~ and the fact that it has to be cooked I'm not much into soy. ALTHOUGH! now that I'm writing this, I'm remembering I have sprouted soy beans. Hmmm. Sprouted, organic soybeans might be good for. Glad Alissa brought this up so I'd remember what I "use" to do. :)
03-23-2005, 09:50 PM
But ... what about the fact that edamame (the fresh beans that are served in the pod in Japanese restaurants/sushi bars) isn't cooked - or is it? I guess I'll have to research it. (I was lazy today and thought someone else might know the answer to this ;) ). I do use miso and Nama Shoyu.
I didn't think soy was very big in Chinese diets. In Japan, of course, lots of tofu is eaten and, as I mentioned, fresh beans. I think it's just us Westerners that went the SAD way with soy and created strange combinations in order to simulate meat products.
03-23-2005, 11:01 PM
the edamame is cooked -it HAS to be cooked or fermented and the only fermented items are miso ,nama shoyu,and tempeh -and thats if theyre UN-PATURIZED!
I think that soy has been a good intro to the world of healthfood for saders ,it GETS PPL OFF THE DAIRY AND ANIMAL PRODUCTS -which are slowly killing the nation,HOWEVER no one yet knows if it is a "wonderfood" or a "badfood"
It is hard to say-the japanese have lived on it wonderfully and it has been proven to lower cholesterol, help pms ,menopause symtoms,and breast cancer risks,but on the other hand there are ?'s about its thyroid effects ,memory and digestive problems -I belive its too soon to find out and that there is a theory out there that the cattle industry is behind the bad press---so I consume the lesser prossesd fermented soy products
although my mom (who still wants her dairy and meat ) I suggest to get soy milk, cheese,meats and ice cream instead of the dairy counterparts
I just say no more than 20 grms of soy protein a day -enough to help and probably not hurt-its better than animal products ,she is increasing her raw percentage too!
03-23-2005, 11:40 PM
I agree with John Robbins on a lot of things but one thing I think he's way off on is soy. Soy is a food is not meant to be in the human diet. Especially since it everywhere in food nowadays. The estrogen levels in it are dangerous for women and can cause breast cancer. Another misconception about soy is that the Orient has been eating soy forever and in large amounts when in fact they had eaten very little and usually only in fermented form like miso. The GMO issue is also another added problem. Virtually every soybean plant on the planet, with the exception of some isolated areas, have been contimated by GMO due to cross polination.
03-24-2005, 09:12 PM
Im sorry, i thought this article was AGAINST soy and that it told how bad it was. i still have not had the chance to read it and i love john Robbins so i posted it here thinking that it would be helpful. ill read it later when i get a minute, but no raw truth there is no good way to eat soy in the raw diet.
Sorry for posting something i didnt fully read...
03-24-2005, 11:39 PM
what about miso and nama shoyu? -Im still deciding ,Im not really sure if its good or evil ,so Im waiting for more studies,Im not saying I dont agree w/you -its really to soon for me to agree to either side -but usually when something is meant to be eaten it DOESNT have to be cooked ,so that keeps me away from consuming alot of soy ,but I LOVE unpasturised miso soup ,it keeps me from consuming "lessraw" things ...........
03-24-2005, 11:49 PM
Miso and Nama Shoyu are really the only good types of soy. In fermented form in small amounts, it can be very beneficial.
03-25-2005, 10:33 PM
Yeah, but ... they're still cooked, right? Just not pasteurized afterward. :eek:
03-25-2005, 10:45 PM
I really dont know.....but I still think that they have enzymes ,if not then It will be a "guilty pleasure" because I dont think I will be ready to give miso up for a long time.
03-25-2005, 11:08 PM
Nama Shoyu is raw and some miso is also raw. Alot of raw restaurants serve both.
03-26-2005, 12:25 AM
The fact that Nama Shoyu and miso are included in so many gourmet raw recipes and served in raw restaurants didn't convince me that they're raw, and ... noting that Alissa very clearly said in her post: there is no good way to eat soy in the raw diet ... I decided to go ahead and do the research.
Excuse the length of this, but I think it's important enough to include it all here. Be aware that the emphases (italics) are mine.
Click here if you want to go to the original site (http://www.rawbc.org/articles/whatsraw.html)
When making the change to a raw plant based diet, it can often become confusing as to what foods are really in a natural, unheated state. Obviously fruits and vegetables in their natural state are usually no problem, but when it comes to nuts and any dried (processed) items, everything is not always as it seems! Many so-called raw food recipe books use ingredients that are not raw at all. Ideally, everything should be eaten in a whole, unrefined, unprocessed state, but especially for those of us making the transition, this is not always practical or very much fun. Therefore we present this informal guide to what is really raw in the world of raw foods. This is certainly not the final word on the subject, but will be changed and added to as new information becomes apparent. To that end your comments and information (please quote your sources) are always welcome!
Braggs or Bronners Liquid Aminos - this is one of the worst substances touted in raw recipes. It is definitely not raw! Avoid soybeans completely, they are not or never have been intended for human consumption. All soybean crops are now genetically modified (GMO), even the so-called 'organic' ones (There is much controversy as to whether such a thing actually exists). The soybeans must be cooked (boiled) for these concoctions, and much salt is added. Still think this stuff is benign? Drink a glassful of it and let us know how you feel! For more info about soy check out this link.
Nama Shoyu (natural soy sauce) - Same as above, the soybeans are boiled to make this condiment, and although fermentation makes soy products into a somewhat digestible food, it is still cooked and salted.
Miso - another fermented soy product, made with boiled beans.
Honey - Whether you are completely Vegan or not will determine your use of honey, since it is an animal product. If you decide to use honey, it is important to note that this product can still be labeled raw even though it is often heated up to 160 degrees F. However there is true raw honey, generally sold by local farmers. Know your source!
Dried Fruit - Most commercially sold dried fruit (including raisins) has been heated to temperatures ranging from 150 to 180 degrees F. Ideally you should dehydrate your own fresh fruit or seek out a source for naturally sun dried items. Plus, you should be eating as much fresh fruit as possible; any dried or dehydrated food is going to dehydrate you.
Dates - Not only are commercially grown dates heat dried, they are also often steamed afterwards to plump them up. These dates have a shiny appearance and smooth texture. It is difficult to get information on specific growing techniques but it would appear that some organic dates from North America and those from the Middle East are still grown in a traditional way, i.e. sun dried and not steamed.
Sun-dried Tomatoes - Same as dried fruit, most commercial varieties have been heated. Make your own, if you can't use sun power then put them in the dehydrator.
Nuts - Once nuts are out of the shell, they start to decompose; yellowing of the meat indicates rancidity, don't eat them. Nuts are usually harvested in the fall, try and get them in the shell or from a reliable source that can guarantee their freshness.
Cashews - these are a special problem, because they require heat to be removed from their shells. There is now a mechanical process for shelling cashews, but these are definitely a specialty item and need to be purchased from a reliable source.
Spices - Same as dried fruit, most dried spices have been heated and irradiated if imported. Try to use fresh spices as much as possible - grow your own!
Nut Butters - Most of these are made with roasted nuts, but even when they say they're raw, they're usually not. (e.g. Marantha Raw Tahini is heated to 170 degrees F). Make your own in a food processor or a Vitamix using soaked nuts.
Salt - This stuff is addictive! Table salt is much worse than Celtic sea salt, since it is usually baked and bleached with other substances (sugar, iodine) added afterwards. It is in fact indigestible by the human body, and is an intestinal irritant. I don't feel that any kind of dried salt is good for humans, our cells need to maintain a crucial balance of sodium and potassium and consuming dried salt upsets that ratio. Whenever I consume any of these salts now, my eyes are sore and swollen the next day. Surprisingly, many raw food 'gurus' are still addicted to this stuff! Get your salt from sodium rich vegetables like celery, tomatoes, and seaweed. Iodine? On the West Coast we don¹t need to worry about it, it's in the air here (evaporated from the ocean) and absorbed through the skin.
Oils - Most oils are heated during processing, and any made from nuts or seeds quickly becomes rancid. Olive oil is the best choice but make sure you use organic cold pressed extra virgin oil. And use sparingly, it is still a processed, unnatural foodstuff.
Seaweeds - Most Japanese seaweeds are pastuerized, especially hijiki and arame. Whole dulse is usually unprocessed, but dulse flakes tend to be floor scraps with lots of extraneous material (like shells) mixed in. Green Nori is cooked, the black variety is raw.
Maple Syrup - Again, often called for in raw recipes, but unfortunately this one is boiled, often in pots greased with pig fat. It is a very nutritious food, and works amazingly well in the Master Cleanse fast, but there's no way around the fact that it's cooked...
Vinegar - It can be raw (usually the apple cider variety) but it contains acetic acid, a toxic chemical (that is used as a pesticide). Use lemon or lime juice instead.
Olives - There are raw (green) olives around, but it requires some searching to find them. Occasionally, R.F.S.B.C. members offer them on the mailing list. Otherwise, commercial olives are boiled and/or soaked in vinegar or lactic acid brine. Not good for raw food tummies!
Green powders and nutritional supplements - Most of them are heat dried or freeze dried. If you feel the need to take supplements you should thoroughly investigate their source and means of production.
Mangos - There is rumour that all commercial mangos are being boiled before being brought to North America, but I have not yet had this information verified. Also, it has been suggested that all fruit traveling to or through the U.S. is irradiated. If anyone has substantiated facts regarding this, let us know...
Papayas - All commercial Hawaiian crops are now genetically modified , organic ones are not...
This list was researched and compiled with many thanks for contributions from John Kohler, and the Eugene Raw Foods Community Bulletin Board.
Submitted by Thomas Keenliside
03-26-2005, 12:59 AM
what about the heirloom soybean varieties and the ones that say non-gmo?
Im not trying to be confrontasional but my miso brand says its organic unpasturized non-gmo.
I am still going to enjoy my miso soup,its the only non-raw thing that I eat.
03-26-2005, 01:12 AM
Hiya VV -- looks like we're the only ones up this late!!
Yep, mine is also organic and unpasteurized ... but there's no getting around the fact that those little beans have been boiled -- no matter whether they're non-GMO or have twisted frankeinstein (sp!) genetics!
I've considered myself 100% -- even though I've used Nama Shoyu and miso in my recipes. But that's maybe 2 or 3 times a week, if I had to average it out.
I haven't drunk bowls of miso soup like I did when I was non-raw vegan (well, once, actually I did), so that's not something I need to give up (I love Alissa's cream of broccoli soup, so that's what I make -- though I'm now trying to eat few to no nuts, so that soup'll prolly go, too!!).
For me, raw means 100%, so this is important to me. But, I absolutely understand that others have taken a different path.
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