Blatant ABUSE of the word 'RAW' by Larabar!

[andypdx]

Eight weeks ago today, I decided to switch to a 100.00% raw vegan diet. Unfortunately, I have not been able to maintain such a lofty goal. My plan was not scuttled by my own weakness or lack of self control, but rather by the outright misrepresentation (lies) perpetrated by a company that I once held in high regard.

Before I went raw, I was a big fan of the several commercially available vegan food 'bars' from companies such as Clifbar (http://www.clifbar.com), OrganicFoodBar (http://www.organicfoodbar.com/), Larabar (http://www.larabar.com), etc...

It was Larabar that kept my interest after going raw. If you read a Larabar label, it will brag about the fact that the product is "RAW". I thought this was great, and I decided to continue my consumption of these bars after going raw. My favorite was the chocolate coconut flavor.

Then today, I decided to visit their website (http://www.larabar.com). If you navigate to Food > Larabar > About > Frequently Asked Questions, you will see this interesting tidbit...


Does LÄRABAR use raw cocoa?
LÄRABAR does not use raw cocoa powder at this time. Because of LÄRABAR's unique flavor profile as well as the challenge of finding a quality and consistent supply, we have chosen to use cocoa powder from a roasted cocoa bean. We feel the health benefits, including high antioxidant content, far outweigh the fact that the cocoa has been heated.

Gee. Isn't that nice of them to bury this fact DEEP within their website? :mad:

The statement in the quoted paragraph conflicts directly with the labeling on the package that shows the word RAW in big, bold letters!

To tell you the truth, I am more than a bit peeved about this. There I was, thinking that I was doing really good, only to find out that I had been deceived by a company I should have been able to trust. Needless to say, they have lost my business forever (even though may may sell products that ARE technically raw.)

Now, one can make the argument that this was a simple mistake on their part. Perhaps they were "confused" about the meaning of the word "raw". Sadly, this is not the case, either. On the very same page as the text quoted above, you will find...


What is meant by raw?
Raw means uncooked food in its real, most natural form. At LÄRABAR, we use ingredients dehydrated below 118 degrees, which we consider to be raw. In addition, our ingredients do not exceed 118 degrees in the production of LÄRABAR.

As for the rest of you trying to maintain a 100% raw lifestyle, be warned! I'd also wager to bet that they are not the only company trying to pull this crap. Have you personally found any other cases like this? I think it would be a good idea to call out and identify these offensive companies who would think nothing about lying to us. Being a vegan for many years, I have witnessed several similar cases where companies decided to lie about the (non-vegan) ingredients in their products labeled as "vegan". It's sad to see that this disgusting practice has followed me to the RAW world.

Now, I know it's not the end of the world, and I guess I'll survive, but I really do feel violated...it's really disheartening. I guess the only people we can trust is ourselves! :(

[Zella Juice]

:eek: what the fudge?

[eatyourbroccoli]

it indeed is disheartening, no doubt there.

its similar to how something is legally allowed to be marked organic, even if the product contains only half organic ingredients.

look on the bright side: the past 8 weeks have still been healthier than the years before. VEGA bars are 100%, if looking for a replacement bar. or, put together something of your own? keep it up :)

[spicyfull]

Now what are WE Going to do? What about just not buying any more..........

[misslinda]

Well you tried your best that's all that matters.

Nothing beats makig your own where the ingredients are fresh and certainly raw. A step up from that, nothing beats fresh period--fresh foods.

Those labels are not any different from any other product out there.....I bought a coat thinking it was 100% cahsmere b/c the style tag read Cashmere coat but if you look at the fabric label, it's only 10% chasmere but there are so many loops holes in labeling from clothes to food.

In my experience, always contact the customer service and question them but call two or three times to ge consistent answers.

tis true what EYB said prob much healthier than how you ate before! definately not a snickers bar ;)

[Solace]

Ya, I kinda thought that might be the case about Lara and her cocao. The same goes for Vega and their chocolate supplement- but it does state that on the Vega package. Its VERY rare to find true Raw cocao in anything. I was sticking with the other Lara bars like Pecan pie. I also questioned this about the MANA bread available in most freezer sections. Victoria Boutenko inquired straight from the company if it was 100% raw and they said YES. Victoria still said " you are far better off making it yourself then relying on anyone".

[misslinda]

if the cacoa or cocoa says "processed with alkai" than that means it is not raw by definition.

I lost my interest and respect for Larabar over a year ago when I contacted them twice about their specific processing........NEVER got a repsonse--that speaks for itself.

I have doubts about their heating levels --that's a personal opinion

:)

[dreamrawalwz]

I also think that if the manufacturing company aka Lara bars doesn't cook or heat the food above 118 degrees THEY can say it's raw, but what about the distributors that give them the ingredients? They could heat their ingredients before Lara bars even get them. The chocolate in their bars is just normal chocolate, not even cocoa nibs, so not raw. I think the date/cashew one would be the most raw, but then again both those items are questionable sometimes.

[eatyourbroccoli]

I also think that if the manufacturing company aka Lara bars doesn't cook or heat the food above 118 degrees THEY can say it's raw, but what about the distributors that give them the ingredients? They could heat their ingredients before Lara bars even get them. The chocolate in their bars is just normal chocolate, not even cocoa nibs, so not raw. I think the date/cashew one would be the most raw, but then again both those items are questionable sometimes.

good call

[Elizabeth]

Eight weeks ago today, I decided to switch to a 100.00% raw vegan diet. Unfortunately, I have not been able to maintain such a lofty goal. My plan was not scuttled by my own weakness or lack of self control, but rather by the outright misrepresentation (lies) perpetrated by a company that I once held in high regard.


Now, I know it's not the end of the world, and I guess I'll survive, but I really do feel violated...it's really disheartening. I guess the only people we can trust is ourselves! :(

I empathize.. :-) It seems so arrogant of them to assume that for other people that the antioxidant value of the cacao outwieghs the fact that it is cooked. Imagine the people who are asserting that consumers do not have the right to refuse the "protection" of irradiation and the "benefits??" of genetic modification..LOL..

I am absolutely FOR complete disclosure in food labelling. It IS especially horrid when someone catering to a RAW consumer base, would intentionally deceive them, thus interfering with their dietary autonomy.

How about a class action law suit..LOL...:eek:

[RawFoodieMom]

Have you personally found any other cases like this?

Yes. The Maranatha Company is another GREAT example. Their "raw" almond butter and tahini is not raw. They state on their website that they use "raw" almonds, but the product is heated when making the butter, so they continue to claim the product as "raw" on their packaging, but state on the website that the products are "not suitable for raw foodists" or some similar ridiculous statement, can't remember the exact wording, I'll try to find the quote on their site and update this post...

Edited to add: Here's the quote from the Maranatha website:
-----------
http://www.worldpantry.com/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/ExecMacro/nspired/maranatha/faq.d2w/report#raw

What temperature are your raw nut butters produced at?

During the grinding process for all of our products (and for most any commercially made nut butter), there is considerable heat generated by the friction of the ingredients inside the grinder. We do not specifically monitor this temperature, but we know by our Quality Assurance tests and product safety standards that it is sufficient to eliminate any harmful or opportunistic bacteria

Can I eat your raw products as part of a raw foods diet?

Different raw food diets use different temperature thresholds to define what is "raw" by that diet's standards. The term "raw" is not regulated and we do not wish to mislead any consumer who is following a strict raw eating plan.

With over 20 years of producing nut butters, our professional suggestion for any strict raw food eater is this: Purchase a high quality food mill or food processor and conduct your own grinding trials to monitor the temperature of the finished product. With a smaller batch you may be able to better control the friction and heat produced during the grinding. We wish you every success in this process as this was how our business began over 20 years ago.
------------

They're basically telling us they heat it too high during processing so we should make our nut butters ourselves. Sheesh.

What we really need is a raw food society, to work on getting the term "raw" regulated...

Debra

[Conscious Midwife]

I was having similiar issue swith THINK BARS

their packaging and wording has recently changed and I'm awaiting my own dehydrator so Ican make my own stuff!:)

[RawFoodieMom]

I was having similiar issue swith THINK BARS

their packaging and wording has recently changed and I'm awaiting my own dehydrator so Ican make my own stuff!:)

Oh no... Are you talking about the "Think Organic" bars??? Are they not raw either? I've never bought them, but I've thought about it, for "emergencies".

I really should just make some, can't be that hard, there's very few ingredients in these things!! Let's ban together and come up with some amounts for recipes and abandon all these questionable products all together... :D

Debra

[Conscious Midwife]

Yeh THINK ORGANIC

i use to buy them like 10 at a time

I'm going to experiment with a date, nut, cacao and banana version as soon as my dehydrator arrives.

Some of their ingredients are organic and some are raw:confused:

The Think Slim bar has soy abd the Green and Pink are promotional bars with other stuff

[RawFoodieMom]

lifeAgift, I'm so excited for you that you're getting a dehydrator, which one are you getting? :)

Yeah, there's not much info at all on the Think Organics website (www.thinkorganicbars.com)... I think they probably use raw and organic ingredients, but who knows about the processing temperatures... If I decide I ever want to buy some I'll call them, the number's on that page...

Anyway, I'm going to revive the thread about making homemade Larabars and maybe we can generate some recipes... :)

Debra

[Conscious Midwife]

I ordered the 9 tray Excalibur with a timer.

The Caddilac version.

I wanted to try and waitt for Alissa's to come out, but my well being is totally depending on me getting this RAW VEgan thing down pat now!

[RawFoodieMom]

I ordered the 9 tray Excalibur with a timer.

The Caddilac version.

I wanted to try and waitt for Alissa's to come out, but my well being is totally depending on me getting this RAW VEgan thing down pat now!

Ohhh... I have the 9-tray too! I bought a timer thingee at the hardware store... You're going to looooove it. :)

I totally agree, just get it going on now.. :D And you know what? I've just been convincing myself that when Alissa's comes out, I'm going to need a 2nd dehydrator anyway... LOL! You know, to heat things up in when this one is full... Or if I'm making onion bread and want to make cookies at the same time but don't want my cookies to have any onion undertones... :rolleyes:

Deb

[Sharon in Colorado]

You know, Larabar isn't the only one "blatantly" misusing raw. What about all of the (well, yes, US) folks saying they (or WE) are raw yet using extracted oils, powders, spices, extracts, teas, herbs and supplements that were processed and likely heated. How is that any different?

If you are raw, you don't have to buy packaged and processed food. Or frozen food. Or dried/dehydrated food. Or anything that wasn't recently picked off a plant. It's your personal choice and risk.

Like a vegetarian ordering fries or onion rings in a fast food joint, they are making that personal choice taking that risk as well. They might accidentally get a chicken finger in there and might accidentally eat it as well.

As I recall, Larabar does indicate that the cocoa powder isn't raw on their packaging. I don't purchase them anymore as they are too dry and dense for me, but I do remember something about this.

If you want to be absolutely positively sure that you are all raw, the fresh stuff is what you want to look for. The produce section or the garden or orchard is going to be your best bet.

[Stina]

Sharon- oh yeah! Love the Hardcores! - must now go put vanilla extract in my smoothie.......

[Conscious Midwife]

You know, Larabar isn't the only one "blatantly" misusing raw. What about all of the (well, yes, US) folks saying they (or WE) are raw yet using extracted oils, powders, spices, extracts, teas, herbs and supplements that were processed and likely heated. How is that any different?

If you are raw, you don't have to buy packaged and processed food. Or frozen food. Or dried/dehydrated food. Or anything that wasn't recently picked off a plant. It's your personal choice and risk.

Like a vegetarian ordering fries or onion rings in a fast food joint, they are making that personal choice taking that risk as well. They might accidentally get a chicken finger in there and might accidentally eat it as well.

As I recall, Larabar does indicate that the cocoa powder isn't raw on their packaging. I don't purchase them anymore as they are too dry and dense for me, but I do remember something about this.

If you want to be absolutely positively sure that you are all raw, the fresh stuff is what you want to look for. The produce section or the garden or orchard is going to be your best bet.

Yes I often wonder what the 100% folks are doing about spices and herbs.

Like are they growing them then dehydrating and storing in a jar or do they just not count condiments.

Same goes for yeast flakes and amino, NOT RAW, right?????

Hmmmm.

Seems like mono eating toddlers are as close as it comes to keeping it all raw and natural.


Hmmmm:)

[Sharon in Colorado]

Hey, it's all about choice. I choose to use extracts too. But if you want to be pure, it's up to you.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Yes I often wonder what the 100% folks are doing about spices and herbs.

Like are they growing them then dehydrating and storing in a jar or do they just not count condiments.

Same goes for yeast flakes and amino, NOT RAW, right?????

Hmmmm.

Seems like mono eating toddlers are as close as it comes to keeping it all raw and natural.


Hmmmm:)

I think the REALLY PURE 100% raw folks don't do a lot with recipes, eat whole fruits and veggies, simpler smoothies and salads, and don't use a lot of spices and condiments.

Sometimes my mint leaves and basil leaves fall off my plant and I'll let them dry up and then put them in a baggie. I do use the Frontier line of herbs and spices but I personally don't think they are truly raw either.

Nutritional Yeast - NOT RAW. It has been cooked. It's used in small amounts for flavoring things, like making those nut cheeses.


Aminos - To my understanding, anything made from a soybean has been cooked to make the soybean "mash". So even Nama Shoyu has been cooked originally. But then the sauce itself isn't cooked, as other soy sauces have been. I've yet to know otherwise. I'd love to hear that it hasn't been cooked in the first process. I stopped buying it because of the wheat in there. And on occassion I'll use wheat-free tamari which is cooked.

I don't know about the liquid aminos personally, but I've read other junk about it turning into MSG during the processing, so I also stopped using it.

Yes those toddlers probably eat the best. Which is why their breath is so sweet too!

[Solace]

Dont forget the Maple Syrup guys that doesn't exist RAW and I know a lot on here are doing the Master Cleanse and using it instead of RAW honey. MAPLE SYRUP IS NEVER RAW

[andypdx]

You know, Larabar isn't the only one "blatantly" misusing raw. What about all of the (well, yes, US) folks saying they (or WE) are raw yet using extracted oils, powders, spices, extracts, teas, herbs and supplements that were processed and likely heated. How is that any different?

If you are raw, you don't have to buy packaged and processed food. Or frozen food. Or dried/dehydrated food. Or anything that wasn't recently picked off a plant. It's your personal choice and risk.

Like a vegetarian ordering fries or onion rings in a fast food joint, they are making that personal choice taking that risk as well. They might accidentally get a chicken finger in there and might accidentally eat it as well.

As I recall, Larabar does indicate that the cocoa powder isn't raw on their packaging. I don't purchase them anymore as they are too dry and dense for me, but I do remember something about this.

If you want to be absolutely positively sure that you are all raw, the fresh stuff is what you want to look for. The produce section or the garden or orchard is going to be your best bet.
I agree with your final point, but what what you have stated about the Larabar is simply incorrect. I am holding a used wrapper in my hand at this very moment, and the word RAW is boldly printed on the wrapper. There is absolutely no disclaimer or other indication to infer otherwise. (I will scan the wrapper and upload the image if you do not believe me.) I am EXTREMELY judicious about what I choose to eat and not eat. I have throughly scrutinized and memorized every single list of ingredients on each and every packaged item I have eaten in the last 15 years! I can quickly walk down an aisle at Whole Foods and point to every single item on the shelf and tell you if it were vegan or not, even going down to the detail of telling you if the item used refined sugar or not. Additionally, I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a fast food restaurant for the reason you described above, and I now choose not to purchase ingredients that may be heat treated.

You talk about personal risk. Risks can be taken when certain variables are unknown. The fact is that Larabar represented their product as raw. In fact, the next time you are at your local co-op/natural foods store, take a look at their entire line. You will see that a certain subset of their items (specifically the "Jocalat" items...previously known a "Maya") display a "90% raw" qualifier. Peruse this section of their website - you will see this same statement there. This statement is nowhere to be found on the Chocolate Coconut flavor that I consumed.

The issue here is outright deception. Do not give Larabar, or any other company that would choose to deceive its customers a pass. If the packaging did indicate that the cocoa was cooked, then this would be a non-issue. I would have never eaten the product after dedicating myself to 100% raw, and this forum topic would have never existed.

I apologize if I am sounding a bit dogmatic here, but I take these things EXTREMELY seriously. I have been burned before by food companies that chose to lie to their customers, and I am not going to take this lying down simply because I have chosen to become raw. This issue is greater than me. If other raw-foodists are blithely eating non-raw food, then I want them to know! I want to uncover all the companies that are deceiving their customers as well. As you have said, it seems that I may have to move in the direction of making my own homemade versions (BTW: Hurry up with that new dehydrator Alissa...I've been putting off the purchase of an Excalibur, and it's getting really hard to wait! ;) ), but is it too much to ask that food companies use a little truth in advertising? Is it too much to ask that they not lie to their customers? I guess my hope is that there are at least SOME companies that want to bring a truly raw pre-packaged product to the marketplace. I think this is a good thing. With more exposure, more people may be turned on to the idea of a living foods lifestyle. Look at Smart Monkey (http://www.smartmonkeyfoods.com/). I think they are on the ball, but after this scare, I'm gonna have to really grill them.

[andypdx]

Dont forget the Maple Syrup guys that doesn't exist RAW and I know a lot on here are doing the Master Cleanse and using it instead of RAW honey. MAPLE SYRUP IS NEVER RAW
Yep. I've wanted to try this, but have chosen not to because of the maple syrup. Has anyone here tried the Master Cleanse with raw agave? (and yes, for the record, I mean really-raw agave, not pseduo-raw agave :p )

[rawsurfer]

doesnt allissa's book say 112 degrees?:confused:

[So Delightedly Raw]

As for the rest of you trying to maintain a 100% raw lifestyle, be warned! (

Thanks, andypdx, for the warning.

And, misslinda, thanks for the definition, "If the cacoa or cocoa says "processed with alkai" than that means it is not raw by definition." and for the advice to ask for clarification.

I've suspected the "Raw" label more than once. Seems the term is used quite freely. I'll follow my instincts and my questioning now!

;)

[Sharon in Colorado]

Andy the Larabar discussion has come up here many, many times since I've been a contributor to this site.

Essentially this is Larabar's stance: they don't cook them, hence they are considered 'raw'.

So whether they are getting their ingredients raw or somewhat denatured, or outright toasted, like the cocoa, they still don't cook them. They process them, shape them, cut them and wrap them for their consumers.

But I think a little common sense needs to come into play here. They are shelf stable, and the most of the ingredients have been dehydrated. We do not know how high the heat was when the ingredients were dehydrated before they got them. But I do know with certainty that most fruits that have been dehydrated are done so at HIGH TEMPS, enough to denature the food. The only fruits that are considered raw are labeled sun-dried or the freeze-dried Just Tomatoes brand, which I've looked into.

Nobody really knows if they are purposely trying to deceive. After all, they really are "raw", as in not cooked. The labels do not say "fresh". Plenty of people eat those things and don't seem to have a problem with eating them.

But the point to my post was, that it is easier and less frustrating and takes up a lot less energy to use your own instincts on matters like this. And not to put blame on some corporation all the time. A corporation is just too complex to put your faith in.

I used to think all kinds of things labeled "raw" was indeed as healthy as an apple straight off the tree and through the years realized, it just ain't so. I don't rely on any packed, concentrated, heated, denatured food-stuffs to help in my healing process. If I partake in it, I see it for what it is. When I eat a banana or a stalk of celery, I know I'm getting the purest form of food.

[misslinda]

Yes, I agree Sharon........this thread is getting a little heated *pun intended *

I don't think it is a "RAW" issue as it so much as a labeling issue laws that allows a company to claim certain terms and slight "misrepresentation" as it appears b/c WE know ourselves what RAW means to ous.....it doens't neccessarily mean RAW [foodist] to them.

I think sometimes clamining ourselves to be raw foodist, we become hypersensitive to ANYTHING that says raw---maybe assuming it's made for raw foodists............

OVer a year ago, came out a new "raw" bar and I called the CS of the company and asked her if she new the lable raw foodist then asked her if that definition fit how they processed the ingredients etc.


Smartmonkey is one that I would eat again if I had the bar craving PLUS they dont' dehydrate which makes a nice contrast to the dry ones.

But like I mentioned earleir, did you know that a coat can be called a "cashmere coat" when it ONLY has 10%? How do you think I felt Andy.......measly 10% for $338
:mad: :p

Com'on make your own version of Smartmoney non-dehydarted bars and sell them so we can buy 'em

[Veganforlife]

Sorry to be hijacking this thread, but I'm gonna anyway. I knew cashmere was an animal product, so...
I looked it up and found:

An extremely soft, luxurious fabric made from the hair of the cashmere goat - native to Kashmir in northwestern India, Tibet, Turkestan, Iran, Iraq and China. Cashmere is obtained from the animal by combing rather than clipping. Cashmere is more like wool than any other fiber. The fabric is light in weight, wonderful to wear but not known for its durability. Here's an interesting link about cashmere: http://www.wisegeek.com/why-is-cashmere-so-expensive.htm

So, your 10% cashmere coat is not toally raw then, eh? :p

[Sharon in Colorado]

Good point Linda. I understand about the labeling, there are no rules or guidelines, so companies just label it to get consumers.

On that note, we could also question the true rawness of ingredients that Smartmonkey, Think Organic, and all those other "raw" bar companies get.

Do they all get truly raw dehydrated ingredients? I think most coconut for instance (as discussed here recently) is dried at fairly high temps. It's just less cost prohibitive for companies to high heat dry foods.

It takes a very long time to dehydrate fruit & veggies at low temps, even for me here in dry, dry Colorado. Even when I make my lemon, tomato, celery seasoning mix it takes at least 24 hours, even when I crank my thermostat up to 125 degrees!

Lucy - was the Cashmere cooked, or do you mean it's just not vegan? ;)

[dreamrawalwz]

I agree with you Sharon. I think the issue for me, which I didn't write because I don't think it was relavent, is the labeling aspect. Not so much with raw, but with ingredients they don't need to list in a packaged item if it's less than a certain percentage. I mean, this doesn't deal wtih me now, but for those with severe food allergies it can be a problem. I know they have new labels now that say "contains wheat, milk, etc." or "processed on machinary with wheat..." or whatever. To me it's not good enough. "Natural flavors" could mean BILLION things....so WHAT is it?

Ok, end rant. :mad:

[dreamrawalwz]

Sorry to be hijacking this thread, but I'm gonna anyway. I knew cashmere was an animal product, so...
I looked it up and found:

An extremely soft, luxurious fabric made from the hair of the cashmere goat - native to Kashmir in northwestern India, Tibet, Turkestan, Iran, Iraq and China. Cashmere is obtained from the animal by combing rather than clipping. Cashmere is more like wool than any other fiber. The fabric is light in weight, wonderful to wear but not known for its durability. Here's an interesting link about cashmere: http://www.wisegeek.com/why-is-cashmere-so-expensive.htm

So, your 10% cashmere coat is not toally raw then, eh? :p

Lol, I feel stupid! I didn't know it was an animal by-product. I never knew what it was and really thought about it. I havn't worn any in years, but still lol...

[misslinda]

Dream ~~~ that is excellent DETAIL to mention about the labeling and the fine print..........

may be processed with soy,nuts and wheat or bla balhblah in the the same machinery........

((( HEY ))))

Yur right, my coat is not RAW!!!!!!!!!!! I can't complain, if it was 100%, it would $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$. I'm happy with it :D

[domestic goddess]

Boy, I just finished dehydrating my own 'larabars' today because I wanted to save some money, plus we have multiple food allergies and I wanted to combine the things my kids COULD have...guess I will be making them from here on out. (they are delicious, btw ;) )

[RawFoodieMom]

Boy, I just finished dehydrating my own 'larabars' today because I wanted to save some money, plus we have multiple food allergies and I wanted to combine the things my kids COULD have...guess I will be making them from here on out. (they are delicious, btw ;) )

How did you make them? Can you share how you prepared them? :)

Deb

[domestic goddess]

I just posted it on the other larabar recipe thread...I'll try to link it...I'm a bit of a dolt when it comes to computer stuff...:o

[RawFoodieMom]

It's okay I just found it in the other thread, thanks for sharing your recipe! :)

Deb

[Sooboopa]

This happened to me last week. I was on an Australian raw website. There was an ad for Raw Coconut Bliss Balls...or something like that. I sent them an email, asking if the coconut and the cocoa were raw. An email came back saying they weren't. This kind of fries my brain. How can you label something as raw, when it is not raw? It was the same when I read 'raw' recipes containing maple syrup. It is the same as people calling themselves vegetarians when they eat chicken and fish. I never knew chicken and fish were vegetables. There is no logic involved in any of this. They were super expensive...6 balls for $20. I asked the size of them, but received no reply.

[Solace]

Yep. I've wanted to try this, but have chosen not to because of the maple syrup. Has anyone here tried the Master Cleanse with raw agave? (and yes, for the record, I mean really-raw agave, not pseduo-raw agave :p )
I believe in the book it calls for boiled water with lemon/cayenne and maple syrup. David Wolfe suggested room temp or lightly warmed water- Raw honey/lemon and cayenne.:) But I am sure you may use Raw Agave in place of honey. Even as just a drink its good.

[andypdx]

Andy the Larabar discussion has come up here many, many times since I've been a contributor to this site.

Essentially this is Larabar's stance: they don't cook them, hence they are considered 'raw'.

So whether they are getting their ingredients raw or somewhat denatured, or outright toasted, like the cocoa, they still don't cook them. They process them, shape them, cut them and wrap them for their consumers.

But I think a little common sense needs to come into play here. They are shelf stable, and the most of the ingredients have been dehydrated. We do not know how high the heat was when the ingredients were dehydrated before they got them. But I do know with certainty that most fruits that have been dehydrated are done so at HIGH TEMPS, enough to denature the food. The only fruits that are considered raw are labeled sun-dried or the freeze-dried Just Tomatoes brand, which I've looked into.

Nobody really knows if they are purposely trying to deceive. After all, they really are "raw", as in not cooked. The labels do not say "fresh". Plenty of people eat those things and don't seem to have a problem with eating them.

But the point to my post was, that it is easier and less frustrating and takes up a lot less energy to use your own instincts on matters like this. And not to put blame on some corporation all the time. A corporation is just too complex to put your faith in.

I used to think all kinds of things labeled "raw" was indeed as healthy as an apple straight off the tree and through the years realized, it just ain't so. I don't rely on any packed, concentrated, heated, denatured food-stuffs to help in my healing process. If I partake in it, I see it for what it is. When I eat a banana or a stalk of celery, I know I'm getting the purest form of food.
OK...

Maybe I still don't get what you are trying to say here. You act as though the nature of Larabar's ingredients is a mystery. It's like you simply CANNOT believe that a company such a Larabar would LIE to you. You blame the victim by inferring that I should have used my common sense.

I posted it before, and I'll post it again!



What is meant by raw?
Raw means uncooked food in its real, most natural form. At LÄRABAR, we use ingredients dehydrated below 118 degrees, which we consider to be raw. In addition, our ingredients do not exceed 118 degrees in the production of LÄRABAR.


So, yes...to answer your question, they ARE TRYING TO DECEIVE! It's not like they don't know what raw means!

They have taken a stance, and they have violated that stance!

[JGex]

Oh for goodness sake. Do you eat cashews? They aren't REALLY raw, either.

Sharon in Colorado said it best:


You know, Larabar isn't the only one "blatantly" misusing raw. What about all of the (well, yes, US) folks saying they (or WE) are raw yet using extracted oils, powders, spices, extracts, teas, herbs and supplements that were processed and likely heated. How is that any different?

If you are raw, you don't have to buy packaged and processed food. Or frozen food. Or dried/dehydrated food. Or anything that wasn't recently picked off a plant. It's your personal choice and risk.

Like a vegetarian ordering fries or onion rings in a fast food joint, they are making that personal choice taking that risk as well. They might accidentally get a chicken finger in there and might accidentally eat it as well.

As I recall, Larabar does indicate that the cocoa powder isn't raw on their packaging. I don't purchase them anymore as they are too dry and dense for me, but I do remember something about this.

If you want to be absolutely positively sure that you are all raw, the fresh stuff is what you want to look for. The produce section or the garden or orchard is going to be your best bet.

[JGex]

Dont forget the Maple Syrup guys that doesn't exist RAW and I know a lot on here are doing the Master Cleanse and using it instead of RAW honey. MAPLE SYRUP IS NEVER RAW

aren't there nutrients in the maple syrup that are not in other sweeteners? That's what I've always been under the impression.....

[misslinda]

as far as third party supplying ingredients.....

For example: MSG. has a gazillion disguised terms. "spices" on a label has MSG.

If ABC comapany makes a dressing that has the ingredients "spices" and purchased it from DEF company that supplied it, they don't have to specify MSG on their lable for the dressing.

Same with Marantha's label that reads: RAW almond butter. Upon research and speaking to the CS dept 2 years ago, the rep assured me that they USE raw sweet almonds BUT when achieving the nutter butter result, they use high levels of heat............man was that a disappointment but terminology is somewhat broad in the labeling world industry.

Larabar, I don't think she is a raw foodist at all:confused:

[JGex]

I agree with your final point, but what what you have stated about the Larabar is simply incorrect. I am holding a used wrapper in my hand at this very moment, and the word RAW is boldly printed on the wrapper. There is absolutely no disclaimer or other indication to infer otherwise. (I will scan the wrapper and upload the image if you do not believe me.) I am EXTREMELY judicious about what I choose to eat and not eat. I have throughly scrutinized and memorized every single list of ingredients on each and every packaged item I have eaten in the last 15 years! I can quickly walk down an aisle at Whole Foods and point to every single item on the shelf and tell you if it were vegan or not, even going down to the detail of telling you if the item used refined sugar or not. Additionally, I wouldn't be caught DEAD in a fast food restaurant for the reason you described above, and I now choose not to purchase ingredients that may be heat treated.

You talk about personal risk. Risks can be taken when certain variables are unknown. The fact is that Larabar represented their product as raw. In fact, the next time you are at your local co-op/natural foods store, take a look at their entire line. You will see that a certain subset of their items (specifically the "Jocalat" items...previously known a "Maya") display a "90% raw" qualifier. Peruse this section of their website - you will see this same statement there. This statement is nowhere to be found on the Chocolate Coconut flavor that I consumed.

The issue here is outright deception. Do not give Larabar, or any other company that would choose to deceive its customers a pass. If the packaging did indicate that the cocoa was cooked, then this would be a non-issue. I would have never eaten the product after dedicating myself to 100% raw, and this forum topic would have never existed.

I apologize if I am sounding a bit dogmatic here, but I take these things EXTREMELY seriously. I have been burned before by food companies that chose to lie to their customers, and I am not going to take this lying down simply because I have chosen to become raw. This issue is greater than me. If other raw-foodists are blithely eating non-raw food, then I want them to know! I want to uncover all the companies that are deceiving their customers as well. As you have said, it seems that I may have to move in the direction of making my own homemade versions (BTW: Hurry up with that new dehydrator Alissa...I've been putting off the purchase of an Excalibur, and it's getting really hard to wait! ;) ), but is it too much to ask that food companies use a little truth in advertising? Is it too much to ask that they not lie to their customers? I guess my hope is that there are at least SOME companies that want to bring a truly raw pre-packaged product to the marketplace. I think this is a good thing. With more exposure, more people may be turned on to the idea of a living foods lifestyle. Look at Smart Monkey (http://www.smartmonkeyfoods.com/). I think they are on the ball, but after this scare, I'm gonna have to really grill them.

I'm looking at a bar and ya know, amazingly enough, my interpretation of their wording is different than yours. Maybe because i worked in advertising for many years....

The wrapper says: "Raw Natural Food For Health. For Life. For Fun."

It does not say "100% raw" - same as some "organic" products may only contain 70% organic ingredients, by law they can still use the word organic. No where on the wrapper does Larabar claim 100% raw. They only claim it's uncooked which it is. The bars are not cooked. Semantics, yes, but that's marketing.

Even with heated cacao, the Larabars are a healthy alternative for most people. If you're going to split hairs over semantics, just don't eat them. Make your own with ingredients you choose..... there is a recipe thread going in the recipe section.

[Damzlfly]

I'm making my own almond butter now...its just as good...tho if the almond pasteurization thing goes thru...guess it'll be walnut butter...or..eep I dont want to think about it.

[misslinda]

I'm looking at a bar and ya know, amazingly enough, my interpretation of their wording is different than yours. Maybe because i worked in advertising for many years....

The wrapper says: "Raw Natural Food For Health. For Life. For Fun."

It does not say "100% raw" - same as some "organic" products may only contain 70% organic ingredients, by law they can still use the word organic. No where on the wrapper does Larabar claim 100% raw. They only claim it's uncooked which it is. The bars are not cooked. Semantics, yes, but that's marketing.

Even with heated cacao, the Larabars are a healthy alternative for most people. If you're going to split hairs over semantics, just don't eat them. Make your own with ingredients you choose..... there is a recipe thread going in the recipe section.

"Your honor, what is the verdict on punishment?" :D

[JGex]

"Your honor, what is the verdict on punishment?" :D

You're not going to start calling me Judge Judy, are ya?

:D :p

[maraw]

I had the same experience with Tropical Traditions. I purchased the coconut cream to use in my recipes and sell on the web site. And I emailed them directly when setting up my account and asked specificially about this product: "Is it raw?" and the response, "Yes, it is." However they do not claim this on the jar labeling or on their web site. Then, after receiving 16 jars of it, someone emailed me and made me aware that it pasteurized. I again contacted the company for more information. Sure enough, it is. I had to mark it way down and got rid of it all. I now carry a coconut butter (which is really the same thing) from a company that is very proud that all their products (nut butters included) are made in small batches and RAW.

It is disheartening that the almightly dollar continues to make people disceptive. Clearly, they are not raw foodists themselves, or they would understand the sensitive nature of this topic. I must give credit to Marnatha and Lara though - at least they do tell you somewhere on their site that their products cannot be considered truly raw - that's better than some.

Being honest and upfront is always going to help a company be more successful - it's just good business. If they have something to hide, they are doomed to failure.

[Conscious Midwife]

I'm making my own almond butter now...its just as good...tho if the almond pasteurization thing goes thru...guess it'll be walnut butter...or..eep I dont want to think about it.


I've never bought jared raw nut butters. Seems expensive.

I always make in my food processor plus I can use small batches and vary the flavor, either by adding honey or bits of another nut or olive oil for creaminess.

[misslinda]

You're not going to start calling me Judge Judy, are ya?

:D :p

HA! I think your tone and choice of words are far more intelligible and sophisticated and you LOOK sexy in the black robe..........
:D

[Veganforlife]

You're not going to start calling me Judge Judy, are ya?

:D :p

No, Judge JGex :p

[Sharon in Colorado]

they ARE TRYING TO DECEIVE! It's not like they don't know what raw means!

They have taken a stance, and they have violated that stance!


Does their FAQs say 100% of their ingredients are heated under 118? Or that they ONLY use ingredients heated under 118?

Why would they mention using cashews processed with high heat, or pasteurized lemon juice if they are trying to decieve? Why would they mention that their cocoa is not raw if they are trying to deceive? :confused:

[JGex]

HA! I think your tone and choice of words are far more intelligible and sophisticated and you LOOK sexy in the black robe..........
:D

lol, you should see what I have on under the robe....

;)

[Veganforlife]

ACK!!!!! My eyes! MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh what a visual!!! :eek:

[Veganforlife]

just kidding!!!!!!!!

[JGex]

ACK!!!!! My eyes! MY EYES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Oh what a visual!!! :eek:

:confused: Hey! I shaved my pits!!






:eek: I can't believe I just said that....

[misslinda]

lol, you should see what I have on under the robe....

;)




.....Judge JGex, what really goes on in the chamber? :confused: :p

[Veganforlife]

Well, maybe the pits, but the legs! Good golly woman!!!




can't believe I just said THAT!!!

just kidding again.

Hey we really hijacked this thread. Sorry!

[misslinda]

:confused: Hey! I shaved my pits!!






:eek: I can't believe I just said that....

LOL, what? winter time, I dont' really shave at all.......
grizzyly all the way folks!:)

[JGex]

Does their FAQs say 100% of their ingredients are heated under 118? Or that they ONLY use ingredients heated under 118?

Why would they mention using cashews processed with high heat, or pasteurized lemon juice if they are trying to decieve? Why would they mention that their cocoa is not raw if they are trying to deceive? :confused:

EXACTLY

They have not omitted the information on the ingredients, therefore they have not attempted to decieve anyone.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Thanks for lightening up this thread ladies. It's always better NOT to get ones knickers in a knot. Crap, I'm starting to speak like the Brits now.

JGex, I hope you keep what's under your robe, under your robe! :p

[Veganforlife]

Sharon? Do you want pictures?
JGex - can you provide Sharon with pictures?

just kidding - again!!!

[JGex]

Well, maybe the pits, but the legs! Good golly woman!!!




can't believe I just said THAT!!!

just kidding again.

Hey we really hijacked this thread. Sorry!




LOL, what? winter time, I dont' really shave at all.......
grizzyly all the way folks!:)

We're just rotten.... maybe AndyPDX will forgive the digression......

:D

[Sharon in Colorado]

Sharon? Do you want pictures?
JGex - can you provide Sharon with pictures?

just kidding - again!!!

No, I only like medical pictures! Still awaiting the mucoid plaque one!

[JGex]

Sharon? Do you want pictures?
JGex - can you provide Sharon with pictures?

just kidding - again!!!

Pictures? :eek:

I don't think ANYone wants to see THAT!

[misslinda]

We're having a lengthy discussion about a $1.89 bar......:D

[Damzlfly]

$2.99 in Canada! :p

[Veganforlife]

Over 2 bucks here in MD!!! At least in northern MD.

[monkeyboy]

Hey,


Like the Monkeyboy always says.." Eat from the Earth not a box"

Lesson learned.



Next subject , please!!


Peace,

M.B.

[andypdx]

We're having a lengthy discussion about a $1.89 bar......:D
No. We're having a discussion about the integrity of the entire natural foods industry.

Please try to remember this fact: People who are experimenting with, or trying out the world of 'raw food' do not have access to a dehydrator from day one. Perhaps their own personal situations or occupations do not allow them the luxury of carrying around a bountiful cornucopia of fresh fruits to partake from at any hour of the day.

For these people, an attractive solution would be a product, manufactured by a legitimate natural foods company, processed in accordance with the generally established STANDARDS of the raw food diet. Namely, taking aims to ensure that their product, and all of it's constituent ingredients are not heated to a temperature of greater than 118 Degrees F. Such products would not comprise their entire diet, but would act as convenient means of complimenting their diet of fresh and dehydrated fruits, vegetables, nuts and seeds.

Can we all agree on this matter?

OK. Next, Larabar, makers of several varities of natural food bar have decided to print the word "RAW" on several of their products. One such product is their "Chocolate Coconut Chew" flavor. Remember, this bar has the word "RAW' printed on the label. Another product that Larabar makes is their "Jocalat" line of bars. These bars typically sit right next to the Larabar flavors in the food bar section of any natural foods store.

Printed on these bars is the phrase "90% RAW"

Again, let me repeat...The Larabar "Chocolate Coconut Chew" flavor says "RAW", while the Jocalat flavors say "90% RAW". Now, why would they bother to make this distinction? I want you to ponder this situation very carefully before responding. Go outside and meditate upon it for an hour or so if you think this will help. Remember, you are seeing this in the grocery store, and do not have the ability to access the internet to help your decision.

Let me give you a similar scenario. Imagine you are in the same store, and you see a product that says "VEGAN". What would the inclusion of this word on the packaging mean to you? Imagine that you continued on to read the ingredients, and the ingredients did in fact correlate with the stated claim of "VEGAN' as printed on the packaging. Now, imagine seeing a product from the very same company with a label that said "90% VEGAN". As strange as this imaginary scenario may seem, please try to follow me here. Imagine holding these two products in your hands. One says "VEGAN", and the other says "90% VEGAN"

Now. Which one of these products would guess to be "MORE" vegan? It is obvious that one labeled "90% VEGAN" would be less than 100% vegan. Would you then automatically infer that the product labeled "VEGAN" would be less than 100% vegan as well, or would you agree that the product was indeed 100% vegan? This type of reasoning is not always foolproof because sometimes food companies are blatantly ignorant (or even criminally culpable), as I have seen non-vegan ingredients (honey, etc...) listed in the ingredients of a product labeled vegan, and have even encountered cases where non-vegan ingredients were not listed in the ingredients.

Now, given the simple evidence of the two Larabar wrappers (One claiming RAW and another claiming 90% RAW), please explain to me how Larabar is not projecting the impression that the one labeled RAW is in fact really RAW?

At this point in this little thought exercise, we are still in possession of incomplete information. This is really stretching it, but although we see the word RAW on a label, but we do not know with complete certainty what Larabar REALLY means by this. In order to determine 100% surety what their understanding or defination of the word "RAW" is, we must contact Larabar. Fortunately, Larabar has provided their definition of the word "RAW" on their website. (Which I will quote here for the third time...)



What is meant by raw?
Raw means uncooked food in its real, most natural form. At LÄRABAR, we use ingredients dehydrated below 118 degrees, which we consider to be raw. In addition, our ingredients do not exceed 118 degrees in the production of LÄRABAR.


We can now see what Larabar means when they use the word "RAW". The hold to the most liberal of the temperature guidelines (118 Deg F.) for raw food (which is OK by me, even though others say 115, 105, etc...).

Apperently, Larabar has found it important enough to make the disclaimer of "90% RAW" on their "Jocalat" bars because of the use of roasted cocoa. This is fair, and an example of RESPONSIBLE LABELING by a food company. If I see the words "90% RAW", I will pass it over. I will not eat it.

Now tell me this...Why on earth would Larabar choose not to include this same "90% RAW" disclaimer on their other products that contain roasted cocoa? Please, if there is one rational explanation for this seeming inconsistency, I am dying to know! Please explain to me how this is not an outright deception. In one case, we have a bar with roasted cocoa, that states 90% raw, while another product with the very same roasted cocoa does not state 90% raw, but simply "RAW".

There is a direct contradiction between the information presented on the packaging, and the information presented on their website.

Please tell me that there is at least one intelligent person on this board who can utilize the skill of critical thinking to follow my line of thought and understand what it is I am trying to convey here.

Please remember this is issue is bigger than Larabar. It think it is vitally important that labeling standards are adhered to. Even if there are not universally accepted standards for the word RAW, at the very least is it too much to ask a company to adhere to their own established standards? I am sure that Larabar is not the only company skirting the issue. If we sit idly by, and let these companies lie to us, then there is no motivation for them stop.

[monkeyboy]

Yo Andy,

I see your point.

My advice is..... don't buy products that confuse or compromise.

Don't eat stuff from a package.

Go to the market and whip up your own stuff.

Sure, they say organic but unless we grow it in our own back yard we'll never know for sure.

Eat your fruits and veggies.

Continued success on your raw journey.

Must be a slow day at the telemarketing company.( just kidding)


Peace,

M.B.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Please remember this is issue is bigger than Larabar. It think it is vitally important that labeling standards are adhered to. Even if there are not universally accepted standards for the word RAW, at the very least is it too much to ask a company to adhere to their own established standards? I am sure that Larabar is not the only company skirting the issue. If we sit idly by, and let these companies lie to us, then there is no motivation for them stop.

Well then maybe this is your calling. You can do something about it if you really want to. Take action, man.

[xiola]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I think the intent of the original poster is being overlooked. I just spent a considerable amount of time reading this entire thread, and I believe andypdx was trying to alert people that the labeling on this product was misleading.

As a relatively new raw foodist (just over 5 weeks now :) ), I do not always have the time, nor do I have a dehydrator, in order to make all my own recipes. Not to mention, I am still learning. This is all new to me. What is raw, what isn't raw? So, I think having ready-to-eat items that can be bought at a store are very valuable to new raw foodists like me. There are times when I am out and about, and I didn't plan quite well enough, and will run into a store and grab a Larabar, or Smart Monkey bar. I too, interpreted the Larabar label as meaning 100% raw because Larabar also makes Jocalat bars that they label as only 90% raw. It seemed to me that if they qualify one of their products as only 90% raw, then their other product is more than 90% raw. It is marketed as raw, and (wrong or right) I too, thought that meant 100%.

For those of us that are still learning about individual ingredients and live busy lives, it would sure be nice if the labeling on a product was accurate. If the label said "Sugar Free" and then there website stated that sugar free meant that they didn't add sugar to their products, nor did they use ingredients that were sweetened, but then said on another part of their website that the dried cherries they used were sweetened with sugar, (keeping in mind that it is not mentioned anywhere on the label), I think we would all agree that their labeling did not reflect what was in their product. I would even go as far as to say that it is very misleading because their advertising, and some statements on their website say "sugar free" and what sugar free means. I don't see why it would be any different for a product labeled as raw, where larabar states on their website that all their ingredients are raw, but elsewhere states that some ingredients are actually not raw. It's misleading.

I also feel that it's a bit glib for seasoned raw foodists to tell those of us who are just beginning our journey to make our own bars. While I agree that ultimately it's best to make one's own food, that task can be a bit daunting for a "newbie" like me. I think store bought bars are great for those of us just starting out who are still learning how to make things. It's like a gateway product. So, I completely understand where andypdx is coming from in way of his frustration with larabar. It is exasperating when trying to be 100% raw to learn that a product you are using to help you achieve that isn't actually raw.

The bottom line is, the labeling needs to be more accurate. Not everyone can make all their own foods. And whether it's larabar or another product, for those of us who rely on products from time to time, the labeling needs to be clear and consistent. I, for one, appreciate that andypdx has done the research and let us know that larabars are not 100% raw. I think it's great that people who have been raw for a long time have already come to this conclusion and seem to make their own wonderful bars. For those of us who didn't know that, now we can make a more informed choice. Isn't that one of the purposes of these boards? To exchange information to become better informed raw foodists? :D

[Damzlfly]

Must be a slow day at the telemarketing company.( just kidding)

lol you're brutal

Andy -

I do see your point. I was actually having the same conversation with a friend the other day about how 'mainstream' raw was becoming and how I am worried that companies may jump on the raw bandwagon buy mislabeling their products to increase revenue from unsuspecting consumers.

I agree we all must be cognizant of this fact. I think everyone should take the onus and be knowledgeable about their choices. When I was diagnosed with my food sensitivities, I became a label reader...and as such now I continue to read the ingredient labels of everything I still purchase in a package (bars, powders etc)..thankfully I don't purchase much packaged food.

In the beginning, I am sure I slipped up, but ignorance is bliss and as I go along this journey I have become more and more knowledgeable and aware of the foods I eat. Take for example the Raw Agave Nectar thread on this board. No one can be completely sure if it is raw or not. Another - if you are a raw food vegan, why are you eating honey? So really, we need to pick our battles, be well informed consumers and live peacefully, positively and in harmony with each other.

My 2 cents.

[JGex]

Can we all agree on this matter?



No we can't. The information is there for anyone to read and base a decision on whether or not they want to eat the product.

[JGex]

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion. I think the intent of the original poster is being overlooked. I just spent a considerable amount of time reading this entire thread, and I believe andypdx was trying to alert people that the labeling on this product was misleading.

As a relatively new raw foodist (just over 5 weeks now :) ), I do not always have the time, nor do I have a dehydrator, in order to make all my own recipes. Not to mention, I am still learning. This is all new to me. What is raw, what isn't raw? So, I think having ready-to-eat items that can be bought at a store are very valuable to new raw foodists like me. There are times when I am out and about, and I didn't plan quite well enough, and will run into a store and grab a Larabar, or Smart Monkey bar. I too, interpreted the Larabar label as meaning 100% raw because Larabar also makes Jocalat bars that they label as only 90% raw. It seemed to me that if they qualify one of their products as only 90% raw, then their other product is more than 90% raw. It is marketed as raw, and (wrong or right) I too, thought that meant 100%.

For those of us that are still learning about individual ingredients and live busy lives, it would sure be nice if the labeling on a product was accurate. If the label said "Sugar Free" and then there website stated that sugar free meant that they didn't add sugar to their products, nor did they use ingredients that were sweetened, but then said on another part of their website that the dried cherries they used were sweetened with sugar, (keeping in mind that it is not mentioned anywhere on the label), I think we would all agree that their labeling did not reflect what was in their product. I would even go as far as to say that it is very misleading because their advertising, and some statements on their website say "sugar free" and what sugar free means. I don't see why it would be any different for a product labeled as raw, where larabar states on their website that all their ingredients are raw, but elsewhere states that some ingredients are actually not raw. It's misleading.

I also feel that it's a bit glib for seasoned raw foodists to tell those of us who are just beginning our journey to make our own bars. While I agree that ultimately it's best to make one's own food, that task can be a bit daunting for a "newbie" like me. I think store bought bars are great for those of us just starting out who are still learning how to make things. It's like a gateway product. So, I completely understand where andypdx is coming from in way of his frustration with larabar. It is exasperating when trying to be 100% raw to learn that a product you are using to help you achieve that isn't actually raw.

The bottom line is, the labeling needs to be more accurate. Not everyone can make all their own foods. And whether it's larabar or another product, for those of us who rely on products from time to time, the labeling needs to be clear and consistent. I, for one, appreciate that andypdx has done the research and let us know that larabars are not 100% raw. I think it's great that people who have been raw for a long time have already come to this conclusion and seem to make their own wonderful bars. For those of us who didn't know that, now we can make a more informed choice. Isn't that one of the purposes of these boards? To exchange information to become better informed raw foodists? :D

The labeling IS accurate. That's what folks are trying to tell ya.... I have 4 different flavors of Larabars sitting on my desk. I bought the ones without the roasted cocoa in them because I READ the info on the web site and made an educated decision to buy the ones with raw ingredients.

As for the comment about my being "glib" - take it any way you want, but I meant it sincerely. If you aren't happy with the products being sold pre-packaged, then figure out a way to make your own.

I've only been eating primarily raw since November. I'm not "seasoned," I'm just not fooling myself into thinking that the food industry is going to make my personal journey easy by manufacturing foods that meet my requirements.

This is not a new discussion. The information about Larabars is not being hidden nor is the company trying to deceive people. Technically, the wording on their packaging is accurate.

[hypnocmt]

Being raw is all about taking responsibility for ourselves. We are here because we are smart and proactive, The first step in being smart and proactive is reading food labels. If Larabar subscribes to a policy of full disclosure, i do not see an issue with their branding and marketing choices. After all, bars are a great option for those who are transitioning. Many people start out as high raw. Maybe larabars that are 97% instead of 90% raw are a good choice for them to have. The raw label is just bait on a hook for all of us "raw fish" whether or not we choose to bite is our responsibilty.

[Sharon in Colorado]

What is more confusing than anything is the way raw eating has changed more recently. It used to be food from the earth, picked ripe, etc. and that was it.

I think the broad range of "acceptable" raw foods today is way more confusing to a new comer than a Larabar label. The Larabar issue is a no-brainer compared to the bigger picture here.

Now it is processed and packaged things. From that the demand is high, and folks are demanding "pure" processed and packaged things. Nobody really knows where the line is drawn, because the purer ones won't even touch this stuff, and could care less if it says "raw" or "90% raw", it's still processed and packaged so it makes no difference to them. It is easier and healthier for them to grab a bunch of bananas than a packaged bar.

Usually in order for something to be 100%, there needs to be a symbol from an organization, such as the K symbol for Kosher, or the V symbol for Vegan. Then you know it is 100% that way. Just because the word "raw" is on the package doesn't necessarily mean one way or the other. Just as someone used the organic example, where it can be 70% or more organic, it can say "organic" and nothing else, no percentages.

There has been the discussion of a raw symbol on packaging. The thread didn't go very far, because it just isn't a huge issue with people eating raw food.

[Conscious Midwife]

Interesting Points Sharon

I remeber when I first started coming on this site I was surprised that there were so many companies out there mailing raw stuff to begin with

For instance when i make my nut butters the taste distinctly different on day five in the fridge then they did on day 1 out of the food processor. So it makes me wonder what else is going on with jarred nut butters that just sit on the shelves.

Also the label First Cold Pressed on Olive Oil confuses me too. What's done second or third? LOL:D

I agree that "purist" probably bypass packaged food al together.

[monkeyboy]

lifeAgift,


Raising my hand.....


"I am a purist"


Enjoy reading your comments. Keep up the good work.

That yoga stuff looks tough......ouch.


Peace and Good Karma,

M.B.

[andypdx]

The labeling IS accurate. That's what folks are trying to tell ya.... I have 4 different flavors of Larabars sitting on my desk. I bought the ones without the roasted cocoa in them because I READ the info on the web site and made an educated decision to buy the ones with raw ingredients.

As for the comment about my being "glib" - take it any way you want, but I meant it sincerely. If you aren't happy with the products being sold pre-packaged, then figure out a way to make your own.

I've only been eating primarily raw since November. I'm not "seasoned," I'm just not fooling myself into thinking that the food industry is going to make my personal journey easy by manufacturing foods that meet my requirements.

This is not a new discussion. The information about Larabars is not being hidden nor is the company trying to deceive people. Technically, the wording on their packaging is accurate.
So the wording is accurate.

OK. Well there we have it. By becoming raw, I have entered a bizarro-world where the word "RAW" means "NOT REALLY RAW" (Even though the company in question clearly defines what they mean by raw). I guess this is going to take a bit of getting used to. Are there any other mind-numbing departures from logic that I should take note of as I progress forward? :confused:

[Conscious Midwife]

Yeah andypdx click below

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?p=248489#post248489

Read the whole thread

and see that

I digressed:eek:

[hypnocmt]

I understand YOUR perception of what is logical TO YOU. However, reading the full label, and taking a company NAME with a grain of pure Himalayan Sea Salt is logical for others.

For instance coca-cola does not contain coca leaf anymore. However, as a branding choice, they have left it in. I, for one, do not feel cheated by this apparent inconsistency.

The folks on this board are much more intelligent, curious, and open than many of the humans I meet in everyday life among the supposedly urbane folk of the huge cosmopolitan area I call home. When they disagree with MY logic, which I dare say is fallible, I find their comments worthy of respectful consideration.

What do you think of this?

[misslinda]

Man, stop while you are ahead.

Ya know, I think a company --if catching wind of this, can taking actions against you damaging their reputation--especially since they are abiding by labeling laws. That's the first thing you ought to be doing is familiarizing yourself with the laws before changing them. Have a diaglogue with Larabar and see what you find out.


....MB, you're alright sometimes :D

[JGex]

So the wording is accurate.

OK. Well there we have it. By becoming raw, I have entered a bizarro-world where the word "RAW" means "NOT REALLY RAW" (Even though the company in question clearly defines what they mean by raw). I guess this is going to take a bit of getting used to. Are there any other mind-numbing departures from logic that I should take note of as I progress forward? :confused:

No, you have not entered Bizarro world.... you're just selectively interpreting this particular product.

I'd be righteously indignant right there with you if there were cause, however, Larabar is one of the few companies that actully makes an effort to give full disclosure on the ingredients in their products. Busting their you-know-whats over it when they have clearly stated that some of the ingredients have been heated or pasteurized is sort of futile, don't you think? I would have great issue over it if they didn't bother to tell us that the cocoa was roasted or that the lemon juice was pasteurized, but they DO tell us that right on their web site. It's up to us, the consumer, to decide if we want to purchase their products.

Like I said in an earlier post, I buy Larabars full on with the knowledge that they are not the same as eating fresh raw fruit. I buy them for convenience and for when I travel. I fully accept that there may be ingredients or processes in the bars that don't meet 100% raw stipulations. I accept the same when I buy dehydrated fruit and nuts and nut butters and honey and flavor extracts and tamari and kombucha tea and a myriad of other items that may or may not be genuinely 100% when one breaks down the ingredients or the bottling process. It's a wonderful thing to have a choice of so many products and foods.

And I wasn't kidding about making your own.... I'm seriously thinking of giving it a go myself. Make a big ol' batch and freeze some so you can defrost them as you need them.

Cheers,
Judy

[kaybee]

some tips:

it is unfortunate if a company lists something on their website but it is not on their labels (which is what i understand to be the case here).

That said, I have found that in trying to stay raw, as time goes by, I have found that I have naturally developed a certain knowledge of what to be "questionable" about; ie that there are certain ingredients that I just assume to not be raw, because if they are in commercial products, they normally arent. As time goes by, it seems that raw fooders develop certain assumptions about what ingredients might be "iffy." Cocoa, specifically, falls under this category to me. whenever i see cocoa powder listed as an ingredient, i assume its not raw because raw chocolate is 1. not really mainstream yet, and 2. really expensive and thus something that mainstream companies would be less likely to use because it would hike up their prices too much. unless i was getting a specialty chocolate item from somewhere like NFL or alyssa's site or whatever, I would assume the chocolate ingredients arent all raw. Also, I have learned that anything that says "cocoa" rather than "cacao" is usually a tipoff that its definitely not raw--although even if it says cacao it MAY still be roasted. if it says cocoa though, its almost certainly roasted.

So i guess my point is that for new rawfooders, as time goes on you will intuitively develop the skills/knowledge to automatically sense what is raw and what might not be. Other things that fall into this category are things like olives, dried fruit, spices, etc. all these things I assume are probably not raw, unless the ingredient list SPECIFICALLY says "raw_____" or "unheated, unpasteurized____" or whatever.

Maybe I am just not a "purist," but I really dont let these things worry me too much... imo, its one bar with a little bit of roasted cocoa in it. now, i would probably choose not to eat it if i knew the cocoa was roasted, but if i did eat it, its really not the end of the world. anytime we are purchasing goods, instead of growing them ourselves--and especially "processed" goods, we take the chance that they are not totally raw. how do we know that the olive presses NEVER reach a higher temperature than 118, even if its just a fluke thing that happens on occasion. How do you know that some of the goods didnt spend hours in a trailer truck in the triple digit heat somewhere, or in someones car where the temperature was baking. or whatever. i mean, i realize "roasted" is a little different than these circumstances that Ive listed, but the point is that unless we are growing/producing it ourselves, its more difficult to be certain about the integrity...anyway, just doesnt seem worth worrying too much about to me.... chances are that there are (processed) things a lot of us are eating that we think are raw that may have been raised to above the ideal temperature during processing or transport, for various reasons....

[sport]

Man, stop while you are ahead.

Ya know, I think a company --if catching wind of this, can taking actions against you damaging their reputation--especially since they are abiding by labeling laws. That's the first thing you ought to be doing is familiarizing yourself with the laws before changing them. Have a diaglogue with Larabar and see what you find out.


....MB, you're alright sometimes :D

But are they abiding by the labelling laws if it is on the website and not on the label.
Something curious.
I have recently posted that I have just discovered lara bars in my local shops but over here there is an additional label listing the ingredents stuck on the back. It is a large label and almost covers the entire back of the bar. I have not come across any of the bars containing chocolate over here so maybe they are not allowed.

[JGex]

But are they abiding by the labelling laws if it is on the website and not on the label.
Something curious.
I have recently posted that I have just discovered lara bars in my local shops but over here there is an additional label listing the ingredents stuck on the back. It is a large label and almost covers the entire back of the bar. I have not come across any of the bars containing chocolate over here so maybe they are not allowed.

A couple of things to ponder....

1) I would believe most fairly decent sized businesses, especially food or body product companies, probably have lawyers to go over the finer points. A CYA clause, if you will.

2) there may be intent to add the info to the wrappers.... a lot of companies update their labels fairly frequently as needed. I know my business tries to do full disclosure on the prints we do, but it's a work in progress. I add info when I have time. Of course, no one's eating our posters, I hope.....

Just out of curiosity, Sport, do the added printed labels change anything about the ingredient list?

[misslinda]

But are they abiding by the labelling laws if it is on the website and not on the label.
Something curious.
I have recently posted that I have just discovered lara bars in my local shops but over here there is an additional label listing the ingredents stuck on the back. It is a large label and almost covers the entire back of the bar. I have not come across any of the bars containing chocolate over here so maybe they are not allowed.


Hey Sport,

I'm no legal buff but I thought I'd spare the OP. Another poster mentioned in another thread about being forewarned of a lawsuit for "personal opinions." Imean company vs one person.......

I'm pretty sure companies have to adapt to other jurisdictions and their laws--in this case, another country.

The labeling "standards" are questionable which is not suprise I mean googling FDA food label laws, interesting stuff pops up.

I dunno, I figure if in doubt like anything else, make our own....there's only like 4 ingredients at the most :p

[Solace]

aren't there nutrients in the maple syrup that are not in other sweeteners? That's what I've always been under the impression.....
There are nutrients in all sorts of things, like cooked veggies BUT does not make them Raw.

[Stina]

Um, I wonder if it would be of any interest to the Larabar company that now over one thousand people have read this thread!

[JGex]

There are nutrients in all sorts of things, like cooked veggies BUT does not make them Raw.

I *know* it's not raw... The Master Cleanse fast was not set up for raw foodists. What I was wondering is *why* the MC stipulates Grade B maple syrup specifically. A quick google turned up:

http://www.piecesofvermont.com/gradeb.html


Grade B Maple Syrup is also used in body cleansing detoxification recipes, such as the Stanley Burroughs "Master Cleanser" maple syrup diet, because it is pure maple syrup, free of any material other than pure, clean, clear liquid maple syrup in sanitary condition, and no formaldehyde used in the maple sugaring process.

I also read in a couple of places that it was thought to have more minerals than other sweeteners, but I don't know if that is true or not.

I would be curious if this is true or if substituting any other sweetener like raw agave would work as well.

[Solace]

I *know* it's not raw... The Master Cleanse fast was not set up for raw foodists. What I was wondering is *why* the MC stipulates Grade B maple syrup specifically. A quick google turned up:

http://www.piecesofvermont.com/gradeb.html



I also read in a couple of places that it was thought to have more minerals than other sweeteners, but I don't know if that is true or not.

I would be curious if this is true or if substituting any other sweetener like raw agave would work as well.:D I know you know :p Just going by what David Wolfe says- maple syrup will stick and corrode in you system with prolonged use. He says use raw honey, I believe him.:)

[JGex]

lol, Wolfe has me hooked on raw cacao...... no wonder he's such a happy lil' chap if he has a yummy cacao drink every day like I've been doing the last couple of days!!

[texasgirl]

WOW, this was an adventure reading through all of this. I understand both views, about getting jipped and that the company does advise correctly about what is in there, I guess it is about what the consumer expects, not saying anyone is right or wrong. Just interesting. The first raw foods class I took, I thought it was funny that the teacher made a point to say don't make this a religion, just do the best you can to be a healthier and happier you, now I guess I see why she mentioned that. My best to all of you on your journey through life.

;)

[Sharon in Colorado]

I dunno, I figure if in doubt like anything else, make our own....there's only like 4 ingredients at the most :p

Good golly this thread has taken on a life hasn't it.

For those out there STILL reading this, heh, and think that making something like a Larabar is too much of a hassle you are wrong. It probably takes less than 15 minutes to make.

Just place 1 cup each nuts and dates in the food processor and pulse/chop until all is sticky and combined. Roll into balls or spread out on a pan and cut into bars. Place the bars in snack sized ziploc bags and keep in the refrigerator. So easy.

You can vary the nuts and/or use dates, figs, raisins, prunes, currents, dried apricots, dried cherries, even honey or agave nectar. You can throw in shredded coconut, vanilla extract, lemon or orange zest, raw rolled oats, etc. Play around with it. It should make plenty and last a while, if you are not eating it for breakfast lunch and dinner, that is.

Best thing, no need to dehydrate, just keep it in the refrigerator to firm up and you're good to go.

[misslinda]

Good golly this thread has taken on a life hasn't it.

For those out there STILL reading this, heh, and think that making something like a Larabar is too much of a hassle you are wrong. It probably takes less than 15 minutes to make.

Just place 1 cup each nuts and dates in the food processor and pulse/chop until all is sticky and combined. Roll into balls or spread out on a pan and cut into bars. Place the bars in snack sized ziploc bags and keep in the refrigerator. So easy.

You can vary the nuts and/or use dates, figs, raisins, prunes, currents, dried apricots, dried cherries, even honey or agave nectar. You can throw in shredded coconut, vanilla extract, lemon or orange zest, raw rolled oats, etc. Play around with it. It should make plenty and last a while, if you are not eating it for breakfast lunch and dinner, that is.

Best thing, no need to dehydrate, just keep it in the refrigerator to firm up and you're good to go.


How many pages did it take to get to this?:p


"Houston, we've gotta problem." :rolleyes:

[Sharon in Colorado]

How many pages did it take to get to this?:p


"Houston, we've gotta problem." :rolleyes:


LOL where's Andy? I think he gave up on us, we must be intellectually and critically thinkingly-challenged...

Oh Andyyyy............

[carolg]

Thanks for that awareness Sharon.

I don't see it really denting her marketing as she is all over including at Costco. I was never one into her bars so for me it is not a loss.

118 degrees...yikes that is cooked to me.

carolg

[misslinda]

did he say that the had a telemarketing job at night? :D


"Andy..........Andy................Andy!" Can you hear us????? it's all good ;)

Stay tuned:

Revvell interviews: Andypdx, one man's journey to change the entire RAW labeling laws.

Next Guest: Raw food chef Sharon shares simple and easy recipes like the famous-- KindaRAW bars for your raw endeavors.

[misslinda]

but seriously, RAW should be FUN not so serious and frustrating. Probelm solving for the NOW is the most effective.:) Thank you for the ouitline Sharon!!!!

[andypdx]

did he say that the had a telemarketing job at night? :D


"Andy..........Andy................Andy!" Can you hear us????? it's all good ;)

Stay tuned:

Revvell interviews: Andypdx, one man's journey to change the entire RAW labeling laws.

Next Guest: Raw food chef Sharon shares simple and easy recipes like the famous-- KindaRAW bars for your raw endeavors.
OK, that did make me laugh a bit, but I still think there are some important issues at hand. I've analyzed the collective wisdom here, and it seems that you all are trying to tell me this...

1) Fresh is best. If you can possibly do so, make your own.
2) Ignore anything that says raw on the package. They are lying.
3) Pick up some raw nuts and dates to make your own bars.
4) Notice that the bag of raw nuts says "raw". Realize that they are lying.
5) Notice that the container of dates says "raw". Realize that they too are lying.
5) Hit head against wall.
6) Give up the idea of making any kind of raw bar
7) Plant some almond trees.
8) Scratch that. I live in an apartment.
9) Move to a diet of only fresh fruits and vegetables. See how that goes.

Sound good?

OK, now on a serious note, I still think there is an extremely important issue at hand.

My words have not seemed to have had an impact thus far, so perhaps a picture might help...

http://img405.imageshack.us/img405/6539/larabaraz5.jpg

This is an image from the side of the wrapper of a 'Cherry Pie' flavor Larabar. I don't have the 'Chocolate Coconut' version here, but the wording here is identical, and I had to rummage through the trash 10 minutes just to get this one!

On the wrapper, we see the words...

NO SUGAR ADDED
UNPROCESSED
RAW
NON-GMO
GLUTEN FREE
DAIRY FREE
SOY FREE
VEGAN
KOSHER

Note that all of these claims have equal billing on the side of the wrapper. I will focus on a select few...

Let's start with 'VEGAN'. The word vegan implies that the product is free from animal products. What would you think of a product that had the word 'VEGAN' on the wrapper, yet actually contained lard? Would you find it amusing? Funny? A light hearted joke? How do you think a vegan would feel if he ate such a product while under the impression that the product was actually vegan? Who would you blame for this mistake? Would you blame the producer of the product, or the vegan who bought it and was foolish enough to actually eat it without first visiting the website where he would find a disclaimer telling him that their vegan products actually contained a healthy dose of lard in each bite?

How about 'NON-GMO'? This means that the manufacturer is stating that the product is free from genetically modified food ingredients. Again, I will ask you. What would you think of a food producer that sold an item with the words 'GMO-FREE' who actually skimped, and used genetically modified. ingredients instead? Would you find this behavior to be acceptable? Again, who would you blame in this scenario? Would you blame the food company, or the person who was silly enough to believe the packaging without first visiting the website where they would discover that GM products were actually used.

How about the word 'GLUTEN FREE'? Some people are extremely allergic to wheat gluten. Would you find it acceptable for a company to plaster the words "GLUTEN FREE' on their labels, and then sprinkle in some gluten just for kicks? How would you feel if a small child got very sick, or even died because of an unexpected allergic reaction? Who would you blame in this instance? The company or the child who was just too lazy to realize that the company was LYING to him. The same holds true for SOY. Some people are allergic to soy. Would it be acceptable to you for a company to sneak in some soy protein even though the label claims otherwise?

Are you starting to grasp what I am saying here? How many of the stated claims should we give them a pass on? One, Two Three, all of them? Do standards mean nothing to you? Do you think that it's perfectly acceptable for companies to use confusing and contradictory information in this manner?

To say that the word RAW in this context only means that the product contains SOME raw ingredients is just as silly as saying a product can be described as VEGAN because it contains SOME vegan ingredients. By this kind of logic, beef stew is vegan! Something is either vegan, or it is not. Something is either raw (~118°F), or it is not. To slap the word RAW on a product that contains roasted cocoa(200°F+), is simply insane.

It should not be necessary for anyone to have to go to a company's website to check the veracity of each and every ingredient of each and every food item that they consume. You do realize that some people do not yet have internet access. What do you say to these people? The ONLY thing they have to go on is the label on the item sitting on the store shelf. Perhaps I am crazy, but I don't think it's too much to ask for a company to actually stand behind the claims written on their packaging. If this were Nabisco or Hershey, or some other huge mega-corp who was jumping on the latest health craze bandwagon, then I wouldn't really give a damn (I wouldn't touch that stuff to begin with), but this is NOT the case. This is a small company who has demonstrated that they actually understand the meaning of the word 'RAW' (as stated on their website). The horrible thing here is that even though they should have known better, the ONLY place where you can learn that the stated claim on the package is UNTRUE is buried deep within their website. If this happened to the VEGAN or KOSHER community, it would literally start a holy war! I guess I find it a bit sad that you would let a company misuse the word RAW like this and basically walk all over you.

During my last 15 years as a vegan, I've had to set more than a few companies straight. Through ignorance, or downright apathy, several companies have tried to pass off non-vegan foods as vegan. I challenged these companies not for my own sake, but for the sake of others. I hated the thought of others being suckered into the trap that I fell into. When I found out that the 'RAW' bars I was eating actually contained roasted cocoa, I was pretty teed off. I could have simply passively stopped buying them, but this would have not solved the problem. Who knows how long I might have kept buying Larabars if I had not decided to visit the website. What if I didn't even HAVE web access? I can see others like myself starting to venture into this raw world. Should we let them fall for the same ploy? How many people outside of this board are eating 'RAW' Larabars right now, unaware that they are being duped? It is for these reasons that I have taken this so seriously. If they want to change the wrapper to 90% RAW, then fine. If people chose to knowingly eat these correctly labeled 90% RAW bars, I have no problem with that either. What I will not stand for is letting a company think I am eating one thing when I am actually eating another.

[hypnocmt]

If you disagree with the labelling practices of Larabars to the extent that just making your own is not good enough...just write them a letter and buy what you want to buy.

If you feel there are fraudulent practices involved, ask a lawyer if you have a case. Until then, how about an apple?

People lived for hundreds of years without energy bars.

[michigan roman]

at the great fear/risk of being torn to shreds by all the wild women in this thread i agree with andys point . ecspecially the part about them knowingly labeling some %90 then the others they thusly real;ize arent raw but label so . thats lying not ignorance . and im glad andys pointing it out and putting the pressure on them to do right or get out . and even if its not lying and is ignorance , or it is differing interpitations of what raw is i sure agree with the point being brought up that they arent raw , the %90 vegan %100 vegan analogy really makes sense .

i think the 2 big factors against andy in this thread/case are 1 thee mentioned wild bunch all love lara bars (chocolate fix + named after a women greatly helps their popularity ide guess) , and 2 the company is owned by a women . andy your pleading your case to the wrong jury . but i completely agree with your point .

[Damzlfly]

Andy -

I think you should redirect your focus to the other important issue on this board that really needs someone like you to champion for - the pasturization of raw almonds - http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/showthread.php?t=25070

Yes the Raw when its not issue is a great one I agree, but I think your point has been beaten to death. Contact Larabar, tell them your displeasure. I'm sure if you provide an email addy a lot of folks here will email as well (myself being one of them).

[michigan roman]

also , i didnt even see this new thread by andy just above with the product wrapper and further logic stated til now . and after reading part of it i saw all i had to see , and my opinion = lara bars guilty as claimed by andy . hes exactly correct , if every company did this we'd have a giant mess . i went through the exact thing since going vegan 14 years ago , and would be livid if a company told me something was vegan and in actuality they had some poor critter pent up in a cage somewhere to make this product . its totally against what i am . just like now ive come to believe completely in the importance of raw food and would be very put off if i was eating something claimed raw but isnt .
also , the 9 points brought up by andy are RIGHT ON THE MARK IMO and funny .

[sport]

Just out of curiosity, Sport, do the added printed labels change anything about the ingredient list?

I only have the ginger snap in the house at the moment (because I am happy to say that I have my own apple papaya and raspberry ones in the dehydrator) and the label reads exactly on the original which makes it really odd. Why would someone go to the expense and trouble of putting another label on it.

[dreamrawalwz]

I see all sides to this. Yes, they are misinforming the general public. Some say that they tell you on their website the ingredients aren't raw, but what if you don't have access to the interenet? You shouldn't have to think "oh, they say raw on the package, that must mean it isn't" WHich makes no sense. It should SAY what it really is. I also see other's points that if you know the item is not raw, just don't buy it, but I see a third side of those transitioning and if they know it's not completley raw and choose to eat it, that's their choice. Andy has made some great points about the labeling and I completely understand where he's coming from. Don't hurt me lol.

[michigan roman]

yes dreamrawalwz your sensing the same wild killer lionness pack in this thread that i am :D , im out of here . let them shred up poor andy . :cool:

[JGex]

OK, one more post on this and hopefully I'm done......

First, there are 12 flavors of Larabars. Only 2 of those contain the roasted cocoa powder and only one contains the flash pasteurized lemon juice. That's 3 out of 12. 25 % of the big picture. The rest of the bars, as far as I know, contain RAW dehydrated fruits and nuts.

On their web site, they state:


Does LÄRABAR use raw cocoa?
LÄRABAR does not use raw cocoa powder at this time. Because of LÄRABAR's unique flavor profile as well as the challenge of finding a quality and consistent supply, we have chosen to use cocoa powder from a roasted cocoa bean. We feel the health benefits, including high antioxidant content, far outweigh the fact that the cocoa has been heated.

Here's the big statement from me for Andy:

I AGREE WITH YOU THAT THE PACKAGING FOR THE BARS WITHOUT COMPLETELY RAW INGREDIENTS SHOULD STATE WHICH INGREDIENTS ARE NOT COMPLETELY RAW.

However, I still see a company that is making an effort to be informative to its consumers and there are still 9 choices that are completely raw (unless you want to get into the cashew debate).

If you have a problem with the chocolate flavored bars, don't buy them. If that is not enough, write the company with the reasons you believe they should change the wording on their packaging.

Now that we've looked at the ingredients list and the FAQ on the Larabars, let's look at the Special Diets menu:


We know many of our customers follow special diets or have health concerns. Consult this table to see how LÄRABAR may benefit you.
*
Celiacs
LÄRABAR is completely gluten-free, which we confirm with Gliadin testing. Our packaging bears the CSA Celiac* approved gluten-free symbol.
*
Diabetics
For many diabetics, the combination of dried, unsweetened fruit and nuts in LÄRABAR does not significantly raise blood sugar levels.
*
Food Allergies
LÄRABAR is gluten, dairy, soy and corn free. LÄRABAR is also peanut free and produced in a peanut-free facility. However, we cannot guarantee that our ingredients have not come in contact with peanuts prior to reaching our manufacturing facility.
*
Feingold Program
LÄRABAR, free of colorings, additives, preservatives and is approved by the Feingold Program.
*
Heart Disease
The nuts in LÄRABAR contain heart-healthy Omega 3 & 6 essential fatty acids, which have been proven to lower LDL cholesterol levels and may help prevent heart disease.
*
Kids
LÄRABAR is made with unsweetened fruits, nuts and spices only. We do not add sugars or supplements so LaraBar is great for kids. Each bar is equal to 1 serving of fruit according to the USDA Food Guide Pyramid.
*
Kosher
LÄRABAR is Pareve Kosher certified in Colorado and bears the Scroll K symbol.
*
Low Carbohydrate Diets
LÄRABAR contains approximately 20 grams of whole-food-source carbohydrates, which are essential to good health.

Vegans/Vegetarians
Made from only plant foods, LÄRABAR is completely Vegan.
*
Weight Watchers®
LÄRABAR equals 4 to 5 points on the Weight Watchers® point system.

You notice what ISN'T on that list? That's right - RAW FOODISTS. The bars absolutely DO provide a healthy alternative for ALL of the specific dietary oriented programs/ailments thay list on their web site, but they are not marketing specifically to raw food folks. I'd be willing to bet that when they created their product, it wasn't with the idea that anal-retentive purist raw foodists were going to get their knickers in a knot over the 2 ingredients that didn't meet their personal requirements.

Use Larabars for what they are good for in a raw diet aspect.... transitioning and quick snacks. I still do not feel that they are being deceptive. If you are trying for 100% raw, you're not going to find many ready-to-eat pre-packaged products that are going to meet 100% raw. You're going to end up making your own... why? Because pre-packaged manufactured raw foods don't keep well because they aren't pumped full of preservatives.

Now my turn to scan a wrapper:

http://www.drowningcreek.com/images/personal/lara.jpg

My wrapper reads:

UNCOOKED
UNPROCESSED
NO ADDED SUGAR
NON-GMO
GLUTEN FREE
DAIRY FREE
SOY FREE
VEGAN
KOSHER


Do you think MAYBE it might be just like I stated earlier that they are already making a move to change the writing on the packaging so that people won't blow a gasket when they read the word "raw" and then find out 2 ingredients in 3 bars may not be completely raw? Maybe they are changing the packaging to read UNCOOKED because that *is* completely factual.

:o Whew, OK, I think I'm done....

btw, Andy, your list made me laugh. You're ok in my book.

:p

[LightLover]

Maybe someone can mail the adress of this thread to larabar...?

LL

[JGex]

Maybe someone can mail the adress of this thread to larabar...?

LL

I almost did this morning..... :o

[LightLover]

I almost did this morning..... :o

Don't hesitate, if they have the adress, they can always look for an update of the thread :p

[Sharon in Colorado]

My wrapper reads:

UNCOOKED
UNPROCESSED
NO ADDED SUGAR
NON-GMO
GLUTEN FREE
DAIRY FREE
SOY FREE
VEGAN
KOSHER

Example, it states KOSHER in that list. But unless it bears the special Kosher symbol I wouldn't trust it to pass the Kosher law. It can say whatever the heck it wants to say, and there could be a chicharoni in there unless it has the K insignia. That is telling me that a very strict standard needs to be adhered to, and that it HAS to have been approved by a special Rabbinical commitee.

Andy I think most of us totally understand the point you are trying to make, that you've tried to make in your OP, and have repeatedly tried to make throughout the thread. You believe they are being deceptive on their packaging.

But I for one just don't agree with it.

Plus, I don't agree that just because it says "raw" on a package someone is lying. It just means that it might not contain living enzymes according to a living foods perspective. Raw doesn't always mean living or natural. It doesn't say "living" on the package, it says raw.

Again, it is up to the discerning living foods consumer to decide whether or not this is an optimal food. The manufacturer is not ultimately responsible for our well-being and health, we are.

[Eva]

Sharon in Colorado: Hey hey. I am guessing that you are indeed in Colorado. Their information about whether the bars are kosher (seen above in JGex's info from their site) actually said that it does have the K on it, but that it is only certified in Colorado. Does it not have that information on the package you have?

I'm not trying to start any other additional quarrels, just curious. :D

[Lay-Lay]

many peoples and companies opinion of raw are different. Like some feel that 90 degrees is considered raw while others think as high as 125 is raw. You have to make your own decision as to what feels raw to you and if your body agrees then great!

[Revvell]

Well, it's not a problem for me as I don't like them anyway. :D

Maybe I should have one of their reps on my show? :cool:

[LightLover]

Well, it's not a problem for me as I don't like them anyway. :D

Maybe I should have one of their reps on my show? :cool:


Goog idea, and also someone from the Calafornia Almond Board...
(see thread about pasteurized almonds)

LL :D

[Damzlfly]

YAY! Go for it!!

[tweety]

This is good to know because i started to think the same thing.

If you read the ingredients on the packaging of the bars, it does not say RAW.
It says all the ingredients are organic by Fare Trade Certification, but does not say raw almonds or raw cocoa. I just had one with my banana for breakfast...

At least I know... Im not 100% raw so it doesnt bother me much, but it is the best choice i have if i am to eat a quick chocolate snack. I cant afford a dehydrator now, but when i do, i plan on making my own Maya Bars.

If you have a dehydrator, chances are you can make youre own chocolate bars :D

Ingredients:
Organic Dates
Organic Almonds, Walnuts, Cashews
Organic Cocoa Powder & Cocoa Mass

Im sure it would be pretty easy to make youre own Chocolate Bar from their ingredients if you have a dehydrator.

~tweety

[misslinda]

1) Fresh is best. If you can possibly do so, make your own.
2) Ignore anything that says raw on the package. They are lying.
3) Pick up some raw nuts and dates to make your own bars.
4) Notice that the bag of raw nuts says "raw". Realize that they are lying.
5) Notice that the container of dates says "raw". Realize that they too are lying.
5) Hit head against wall.
6) Give up the idea of making any kind of raw bar
7) Plant some almond trees.
8) Scratch that. I live in an apartment.
9) Move to a diet of only fresh fruits and vegetables. See how that goes.

.


My solution is number 5
.......but requires repeat :D

I just spoke to the FDA this morning and left a message with the natural food association blah bahbalh anyway, when I feel better, I'l post

Revell, that would be INGENIOUS!

[Rawkinlocs]

LOL! Yall are really buggin' over this huh?

Well, the way I see it is:

1. How many people consider themselves to be a raw foodist although they may not be 100% raw? I mean, haven't you read at some point in some book or on some website that you only "need" to be 75% raw in order to be considered a raw foodist? (not quite sure how they CALCULATE that percentage deal, but they do)

2. How many raw food recipe books have you seen that while the book says it's a raw food book, they have non-raw ingredients in the recipes such as maple syrup?

3. How many people do you know who think that because something isn't cooked by THEM, it's raw? I've seen people ask if they can eat a slice of bread so long as they don't TOAST it on a raw foods "diet"! LOL! So, while some of these companies pretty much know what the raw foods diet is all about and what is or is not acceptable in the raw community, there may be some who are not fully clued in. I mean:
a. they call Nama Shoyu "raw" because it's not pasteurized although the soybeans used to MAKE it are not raw.
b. Kombucha tea drinks that everyone loves so much - the kombucha starter is not raw - but the fermentation process renders it a living food and it's not pasteurized, so they call it "raw".
c. Again, many raw recipe books have non-raw ingredients in some of the recipes, but because the BULK of the ingredients in each recipe IS raw...they call it a RAW recipe book.
d. Again, some people consider themselves RAW although they are not 100% - this last example may be pushing it a bit, but you get what I mean.

So, if one or two items in a bar is not (completely) raw - now mind you, the nuts used may not be truly raw, but they're not ROASTED nuts (a BIG difference), and the bar itself is not cooked, then to them, it probably is still okay to be deemed as raw just as products that contain a certain percentage of organic ingredients yet not all, they can still label it organic.

The Clincher: (and I've kinda summed up feelings about a little more than just Lara Bars here)
We don't live in a perfect world. Everyone goes on and on about "If we lived in the wild we would ________ or wouldn't _______"
Well newsflash...we DON'T live in the wild so unless we're going to run around nekked (or with a loin cloth), live outdoors, give up sleeping on a bed, give up living in a house and build a hut, stop using a COMPUTER (hint-hint all you RFT-addicts! ;) ), stop going to a job (for those who work), stop driving a car (no matter how energy-effecient it is) and walk everywhere, stop shopping at the grocers and grow our own - then we need to stop using that "in the wild" spiel and stop harping on every little itsy bitsy minute detail LEST we worry and scare ourselves silly(er).

The world has changed and is constantly changing and we've always been able to adapt. So, if the seeds are controlled and possibly tainted, the nuts are being pasteurized mandatorily, we're not positive if what we're TOLD is organic is TRULY organic, E-Coli is getting transmitted to our produce rather than sticking with staying in meat...

what are we going to do? Are we going to get SO bothered by it and obsessed with it all that we just go back to SAD eating? Or are we going to continue to do the best that we know how to do and live a happy, full life so that the STRESS of all this ongoing drama alone doesn't eat us up to the core?

I understand wanting to sign petitions and send emails and fight for the right to have organic, non-pasteurized, truly raw food - but I just can't stress over it. Maybe I'm alone in my thinking, but it's how I feel. Heck, I've been already buying almonds from Costco and it was said a while back that they've been pasteurizing them so I don't really have an issue with that and guess what? The yucky feeling I get when I eat shole 'nuff cooked food...I do NOT get when I eat the almonds! I don't get that feeling when I eat the "not truly raw" cashews or even the Lara Bars.

But give me a Snicker bar or some ROASTED nuts and see if I'm not complaining of a pounding headache and an upset stomach almost immediately after eating it! There is a grave difference in my body between eating a not-truly-raw nut and a straight-up roasted one.

But I digress...just wanted to vent that out cause I see so many of you just having a really rough time of all this but unless you are growing things yourself (and even then, the seeds may not be on the up-and-up), you just don't know - the farmer may say it's organic, the label may say it's organic or raw but you don't know and so either you choose to bless it and eat it, trust that beCAUSE the bulk of your diet is raw and living foods (fresh, I mean) that your body will run that stuff through and clean out any impurities more rapidly than if you were eating a full-blown SAD...and go along with life or you live in constant stress, worry and doubt and miss out on a great deal of other important things in life.

A boat-load of stress (and a poor digestive system-translated, slow-to-no proper elimination), IMHO will lead to dis-ease in the body - MUCH more so than a not-truly-raw-been-steamed-or-boiled-in-the-shell nut or a bar with 2 not-truly-raw ingredients!

Just my 0.02+ cents worth, for what it's worth.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Sharon in Colorado: Hey hey. I am guessing that you are indeed in Colorado. Their information about whether the bars are kosher (seen above in JGex's info from their site) actually said that it does have the K on it, but that it is only certified in Colorado. Does it not have that information on the package you have?

I'm not trying to start any other additional quarrels, just curious. :D

Well I was going by the picture that JGex provided. I don't have any bars, and not planning on buying them (this might make one wonder why I'm even in this discussion, but I was bored! :)). I believe they are manufactured here in Colorado though. I didn't realize it was certified Kosher by a Colorado organization, but I'm sure it's strict enough to pass the Kashrut laws, especially if they claim it is vegan.

[Revvell]

So, tell us whatcha really think, 'k? :D


LOL! Yall are really buggin' over this huh?

Well, the way I see it is:

1. How many people consider themselves to be a raw foodist although they may not be 100% raw? I mean, haven't you read at some point in some book or on some website that you only "need" to be 75% raw in order to be considered a raw foodist? (not quite sure how they CALCULATE that percentage deal, but they do)

2. How many raw food recipe books have you seen that while the book says it's a raw food book, they have non-raw ingredients in the recipes such as maple syrup?

3. How many people do you know who think that because something isn't cooked by THEM, it's raw? I've seen people ask if they can eat a slice of bread so long as they don't TOAST it on a raw foods "diet"! LOL! So, while some of these companies pretty much know what the raw foods diet is all about and what is or is not acceptable in the raw community, there may be some who are not fully clued in. I mean:
a. they call Nama Shoyu "raw" because it's not pasteurized although the soybeans used to MAKE it are not raw.
b. Kombucha tea drinks that everyone loves so much - the kombucha starter is not raw - but the fermentation process renders it a living food and it's not pasteurized, so they call it "raw".
c. Again, many raw recipe books have non-raw ingredients in some of the recipes, but because the BULK of the ingredients in each recipe IS raw...they call it a RAW recipe book.
d. Again, some people consider themselves RAW although they are not 100% - this last example may be pushing it a bit, but you get what I mean.

So, if one or two items in a bar is not (completely) raw - now mind you, the nuts used may not be truly raw, but they're not ROASTED nuts (a BIG difference), and the bar itself is not cooked, then to them, it probably is still okay to be deemed as raw just as products that contain a certain percentage of organic ingredients yet not all, they can still label it organic.

The Clincher: (and I've kinda summed up feelings about a little more than just Lara Bars here)
We don't live in a perfect world. Everyone goes on and on about "If we lived in the wild we would ________ or wouldn't _______"
Well newsflash...we DON'T live in the wild so unless we're going to run around nekked (or with a loin cloth), live outdoors, give up sleeping on a bed, give up living in a house and build a hut, stop using a COMPUTER (hint-hint all you RFT-addicts! ;) ), stop going to a job (for those who work), stop driving a car (no matter how energy-effecient it is) and walk everywhere, stop shopping at the grocers and grow our own - then we need to stop using that "in the wild" spiel and stop harping on every little itsy bitsy minute detail LEST we worry and scare ourselves silly(er).

The world has changed and is constantly changing and we've always been able to adapt. So, if the seeds are controlled and possibly tainted, the nuts are being pasteurized mandatorily, we're not positive if what we're TOLD is organic is TRULY organic, E-Coli is getting transmitted to our produce rather than sticking with staying in meat...

what are we going to do? Are we going to get SO bothered by it and obsessed with it all that we just go back to SAD eating? Or are we going to continue to do the best that we know how to do and live a happy, full life so that the STRESS of all this ongoing drama alone doesn't eat us up to the core?

I understand wanting to sign petitions and send emails and fight for the right to have organic, non-pasteurized, truly raw food - but I just can't stress over it. Maybe I'm alone in my thinking, but it's how I feel. Heck, I've been already buying almonds from Costco and it was said a while back that they've been pasteurizing them so I don't really have an issue with that and guess what? The yucky feeling I get when I eat shole 'nuff cooked food...I do NOT get when I eat the almonds! I don't get that feeling when I eat the "not truly raw" cashews or even the Lara Bars.

But give me a Snicker bar or some ROASTED nuts and see if I'm not complaining of a pounding headache and an upset stomach almost immediately after eating it! There is a grave difference in my body between eating a not-truly-raw nut and a straight-up roasted one.

But I digress...just wanted to vent that out cause I see so many of you just having a really rough time of all this but unless you are growing things yourself (and even then, the seeds may not be on the up-and-up), you just don't know - the farmer may say it's organic, the label may say it's organic or raw but you don't know and so either you choose to bless it and eat it, trust that beCAUSE the bulk of your diet is raw and living foods (fresh, I mean) that your body will run that stuff through and clean out any impurities more rapidly than if you were eating a full-blown SAD...and go along with life or you live in constant stress, worry and doubt and miss out on a great deal of other important things in life.

A boat-load of stress (and a poor digestive system-translated, slow-to-no proper elimination), IMHO will lead to dis-ease in the body - MUCH more so than a not-truly-raw-been-steamed-or-boiled-in-the-shell nut or a bar with 2 not-truly-raw ingredients!

Just my 0.02+ cents worth, for what it's worth.

[Sharon in Colorado]

So, tell us whatcha really think, 'k? :D

I think we need to deep fry those things. It will give them a whole new dimension of flavor.

[Revvell]

I think we need to deep fry those things. It will give them a whole new dimension of flavor.

Hmmm. Well yeah and then, after the oil gets to where it's SMOKIN!, we can send it out to use in women's cosmetics!!! How fun! :D

[JGex]

Would I sound like a kiss azz if I said "I http://smilies.vidahost.com/ups/layla_phoenix/heartpump.gif Rawkinlocs"?

Deep fried Larabars.... may give Twinkies a run for their money!

[Rawkinlocs]

Revvell, girrrll, now if I really, REALLY said how I really, REALLY feel, I'd have to ban myself from this forum! ;)

JGex, I knew you'd definitely "feel" me on this! :)

[Conscious Midwife]

Everytime I get off line to go be a MOM

something prophetic and real gets posted:confused: :D

[misslinda]

....so what was the topic of this thread about :confused: :p

I'm tired..........Andypdx is going thru detox ;)

[Revvell]

*holds head in distraughtness* I am sooo confuseled!!! All these threads are looking alike!!!!

*Looks at the Keeper of the Forest* Hey!!! I'm a tree! Don't do that!!!

[misslinda]

*holds head in distraughtness* I am sooo confuseled!!! All these threads are looking alike!!!!

*Looks at the Keeper of the Forest* Hey!!! I'm a tree! Don't do that!!!

" Me too chief......hey! can I taste that smoooozie yur drinking-it looks pretty good.....is it raw? the coconut flakes look yummy in there"

<< looks for Hypnocmt >>:D



Peace out, I'm gone! :p

[andypdx]

Well, it seems you've all made yourselves perfectly clear. I cannot say I'm surprised, but I am a bit disappointed.

STANDARDS DON'T MATTER.

This is what you are saying. You tell me not to worry about "little things" like a little roasted cocoa in a "raw" food bar. You would say that I am making a mountain out of a molehill. You tell me to "vote with my wallet" or "write the company". You think that I am stressing over all of this. I am not. Through each and every post in this thread, I have been calm, focused and rational. In fact, the only thing I feel at this moment is a deep and resounding sadness. A sadness that comes with the realization that the war is already lost.

What makes me sad is that that so few of you have been able to see the BIG PICTURE.

Whether you realize it or not, we are in a war right now. A war that will ultimately strip us of our ability to make choices about the food we eat. You see, if we do not stand up to one company (Larabar), then what incentive does ANY other company have to follow suit and uphold ANY standard? Larabar is setting the example. This industry is small right now, but I guarantee you, within 5 years there will be 10 times the number of companies offering "raw" options in the marketplace. Do you want this "raw" of the future to be a watered down, kinda-sorta raw, or would you rather have this raw be a genuine as-close-as-humanly-possible raw that would satisfy even the haughtiest of posters on this board? The choice is yours folks! We, the consumers have the ability to shape this industry as it grows. If we sit idly by and say nothing, well then we get what we ask for. I cannot do this alone. Either the raw community speaks as a clear, unified voice, or the message of a strident few gets lost in the noise.

Somebody mentioned almonds. I have indeed read the entire thread on the almond situation, and I think that this is a HORRIBLE development. Having my option to purchase raw almonds taken away, or severely curtailed is a threat so horrifying, that I scarcely want to think about it! But guys, how are we going to stop this? From what I can ascertain, most of us simply do not have the fight in us! I mean come on! We don't have the gumption to hold a single company to its own standards, but somehow we all think that we are going to make the UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT feel that OUR standards about unpasteurized almonds are worth two seconds of their attention? Please! At BEST we have a one in one-thousand chance of stopping this encroachment, and THEN only if we all get off our butts, and contact ALL of our elected officials, and contact ALL forms of media, and PROTEST, and make ourselves known to ALL the world!

Sadly, I don't see this happening. Before long, All almonds will be pasteurized, then...ALL nuts, then ALL seeds, then...who knows where this might stop. I remember a time when Odwalla juices were unpasteurized. It's been over ten years, but I can still almost remember how sweet and delicious that juice tasted. Then, in the fall of 1996, the FDA forced Odwalla to start flash-pasteurizing all of their juices. I remember the first time I tried one of these flash-pasteurized juices. It tasted horrible! I wasn't raw at the time, but the difference hit me like a ton of bricks. Before long, all other companies followed suit. Still today, I can remember feeling a huge loss at the time. I had the feeling that things were moving in the wrong direction. Today, it is nearly impossible to purchase truly fresh juices in the stores. A few companies tried to hold out, but in the end, most were crushed by bureaucratic weight, and had to conform, or leave the marketplace. One of the last straggling survivors was the Genesis Juice Corp here in Oregon. They underwent a horrible battle with the FDA, and nearly went out of business as well, only to return with a pasteurized product.

The current aim of the Food and Drug Administration is to eliminate as many fresh, raw foods as possible from the marketplace in the name of "safety". Ask your average American mother, and she will most likely state that she wants her food to be safe, no matter what the cost. Maintaining the pure, raw, un-screwed-with state of the food is probably much lower on her list than keeping the evil, unseen "germies" out of the family meal. The only force opposing this mighty 800 pound gorilla is a rag-tag band of health nuts and raw-foodists who really need to get it together if we are going to have ANY effect on the future of our food choices.

The pasteurization of almonds is just the latest attack on our sensibilities. Do we have the courage to fight this? Will we stand up for OUR standards?

I truly hope so.

[LightLover]

So andy, have you mailed to the Larabar?

[LightLover]

So, how about a thread "boycotting the larabar"?

In the sense that the thread will boycot the buying of the Larabar, untill the descriptions on their packages will name the percentage of the raw prodcuts.
Or better, a thread: "boycotting products with insufficient descriptions""
We can make a list of these products

LL

[Rawkinlocs]

Andy, my apologies to you if I offended you with my post. In all truth and honesty (and after spending some time this morning going over your posts), I can totally see your point about what they disclose on the wrappers and if a bar has non-raw, knowingly ROASTED ingredients then it should be indicated on the packaging that it is less than 100&#37; raw.

I wrote what I wrote after kinda skimming over this long, LONG thread.

But I guess for me, personally, after being at this for almost 3 years now and being on this forum almost as long - I've just gotten to a place in my mind that (as some here have said earlier on) when I see things in the store, I never figure on it being 100%, unadultertedly (is that even a word?) raw. I've just sorta come to grips with that in my mind. Yeah, they may not have baked it, toasted it, boiled it themselves...but somewhere down the line, something is not on the up and up merely due to the whole production thing - a big (or potentially big)-named company and products are mass-produced and being sold in large quantities in large stores (COSTO?...come on)...they will always find a way to cut corners, etc. to make things more efficient for production, etc. when producing things of that magnitude. The smaller named-brands like Artisana or the folks at Living Tree are probably a little more trust-worthy and I'm willing to bet that at one time, once upon a time before they got "too big for their britches", Lara probably DID use more carefully selected ingredients that were all raw. But since they're becoming more "big time" they are doing what they feel they need to do - but YOUR whole point (from what I can tell) is that they need to let the consumers know that they are using roasted, etc. ingredients yet, still not cooking their bars themselves and by not doing that, it appears as though (in order to keep their customer base) they are purposefully deceiving the consumer by NOT disclosing the info.

Okay, I can definitely see your concern and distraughtness over that because not everyone will find out the truth via the internet and (especially if they are new to raw) they will sorta "blindly" purchase the bars assuming and thinking they are totally raw when they are not.

Gotcha! Well, yes, that is definitely something to think about. I don't buy them...haven't in a long time just because I don't like them anymore so I can't honestly say that I'll be doing any major complaining to the company, but if sending an email or something just to let them know that there are people who are counting on them to at least label their packaging honestly and accurately will help, I can do that.

[Sharon in Colorado]

You just have to follow your OWN passion. If you don't like it, do something about it.

The almond fiasco is much more worthy of attention, IMO. Because it involves direct government control. I would put more of MY energy with my interests toward that, but that's ME.

Everyone takes something seriously and Andy you've obviously made your choice known. Way too much energy was wasted trying to convince others who have their passions elsewhere. Again, IMO.

Anyway,

this is the thread that never ends....It just goes on and on my friends....some people started posting here not knowing what it was...but they'll continue posting on and on just because...this is the thread that never ends....

[Rawkinlocs]

Well, by the end of the day, this thread more than likely will be closed as it has become quite repetitive and long and everyone has their own thoughts and feelings that seem to have been expressed fully throughout the pages.

So, if anyone has any last and final comments on this issue that they want to add to this discussion (ABOUT this discussion, yall...not "next subject" stuff ;) ) then do so 'cause it's going to be put to rest later on today.

Thanks!

[Eva]

Andy,

I haven't even really posted my opinion on this whole matter, but I feel I must respond to what seems to be becoming an attack.

For me, the big picture consists of MY WORLD and how I choose to live within it. And within that, I can decide if I'll shop at certain stores or eat certain foods. Or not. I can decide how to treat other people, and how I affect the world around me. If I were going to get onto my high horse about all of the horrible things in the whole wide world and/or get off my arse to fix those horrible things, my first move would not be against the Lara bar's packaging and that it doesn't have a lengthy disclaimer about the degree of rawness of the stuff inside.

This is getting to the point of a frenzied level of ridiculous. It is not worth my time to read this thread again as it is doing nothing to educate me or improve my or any others' life/lives (you know, in our little big pictures).

[misslinda]

Andypdx, so what I hear you ultimately saying is, would you have our support if you fought to improve labeling the natural food indutry? I think that if you had a homepage with a link in your siggy to spread the word and sign your "petition," you would get FABULOUS response....I mean, we're just a small handful of the bigger picture :)

[hypnocmt]

You would make a fine diplomat.:D

[Morningstar]

this is the thread that never ends....It just goes on and on my friends....some people started posting here not knowing what it was...but they'll continue posting on and on just because...this is the thread that never ends....

Excuse me while I temporarilly disrupt this thread:


ALright you went overboard. I have been lurking in this thread for some time, watching the highjacks & hi jinxs but this has gone way too far!!!

You Planted That DANG EAR WORM OF A SONG!!!!! My kids sang w/ Lamb Chop long ago (oh they'd shoot me if I mentioned that)That's sooooooo cruel!!!!:p

Now we return you to The LARA BAR WARS already in progress

[misslinda]

You would make a fine diplomat.:D


gotta be the bar...........this new one has purple maple syrup,madhava agave and cashews rolled in coconut. :D Ever tried them? I think if you ask Revvell, she may offer to send you a whold box full......she's that kind hearted --LOL! :p

WE NEED TO ASK LARABAR IF THEY WILL RENAME THEIR BARS TO "KINDARAW BARS"


THE ANDY GROUP LLC :D

[Sharon in Colorado]

Excuse me while I temporarilly disrupt this thread:


ALright you went overboard. I have been lurking in this thread for some time, watching the highjacks & hi jinxs but this has gone way too far!!!

You Planted That DANG EAR WORM OF A SONG!!!!! My kids sang w/ Lamb Chop long ago (oh they'd shoot me if I mentioned that)That's sooooooo cruel!!!!:p

Now we return you to The LARA BAR WARS already in progress


ROFL - well what really baffles me about this thread is that the OP keeps repeating himself. I have to wonder if as much verbosity, energy and effort has gone into corresponding with companies and governement in regards to labling issues, or is the ranting and raving limited to this thread?

[monkeyboy]

Hello,



I think it's important to know that I've never had a Laura Ingalls bar or Lara bar, or Lori bar and it's been quite a while since I stepped into a bar ( miss that stale beer smell.)

I've never even heard of one.

I guess I'm a raw purist afterall.



Peace,

M.B.

[misslinda]

Hello,



I think it's important to know that I've never had a Laura Ingalls bar or Lara bar, or Lori bar



Oh man * laughs * someone's got to print this thread out........this just gets better

<<< falling over >>>

[Stina]

I have no opinion but just hate to be left out of anything..............

[Revvell]

I think if you ask Revvell, she may offer to send you a whold box full......she's that kind hearted --LOL! :p


Am not!!!!!

*sits in da corner munchin'* :p

[Revvell]

.... lmao.....


I have no opinion but just hate to be left out of anything..............

[misslinda]

I have no opinion but just hate to be left out of anything..............



* chuckles * well someone's gotta clean up after us right? :D