HELP!!! BODY BUILDER going RAW for first time...

[JerseyDevil]

Hi all,

I am starting out in the realm of RAW for the first time in my life (I'm currently 29).

To give this program a fair shake, I'm going to be completely raw for 30 days and see what happens.

It's currently Day 1 and I've had 7 bananas for breakfast (best breakfast I've had in years, LOL).

Anywho....

To keep this post on the short side...I was looking to see if anyone could help me because I have an interesting situation.

I'm an amature body builder (non-competitive) and I've been told to take in my body weight in protein. I've done this for years. I'm currently 195 and I could definitely lose some weight (I'm pretty ripped but, I could lose about 10lbs of fat to get really shredded but, I don't want to do so at the expense of losing all of my hard earned muscle because I'm not taking in enough protein!!)

Was just wondering:

(1) Can someone who's a body builder be on the raw diet?

(2) What vegetables or fruits or whatever could I eat that would give me the high does of protein I need to maintain my muscle mass?

(3) If there are any other body builders on here, suggestions as to what your diet looks like would be much appreciated. Before going RAW, I've normally been using Whey protein for my protein (taking in anywhere from 180-200grams of protein everyday) so any suggestions you have would be awesome.

(4) Since I'm just starting out and I'm eating a lot of salad, fruits, vegetables, (and bananas of course)...was wondering if anyone had any suggestions for anything else for a BEGINNER like me. I *did* read Alyssia's book (and I think it's wonderfully written and full of great advice and great receipes) however, money is on the tight side currently and I don't have the extra funds to get a food processor, juicer, food dehydrator, etc thus I don't have the arsenal to create some of her more advanced RAW dishes. But I want to give this diet the proper respect it deserves but, dedicated or not, I know it'll only be so long before bananas aint gonna do the trick anymore, know what I mean? So if anyone has any simple stuff like any fruit and vegetable recommendations that for a BEGINNER could impliment into their diet that would be great.

Thank in advance for taking the time to read this.

Looking forward to your thoughts,

~JerseyDevil

[Solace]

Brendan Brazier is known well in the Raw food community. He is a Ironman Triathalete and he works with a product call Vega its a supplement http://www.myvega.com/ Here is also a page with videos of people like him and another Raw Triathalete Tim Vanordan. Enjoy:D http://gliving.tv/shows/category/body-design/

[Solace]

Also, HEMP and Avocados will out do any other protein on the planet

[Fruitarianone]

We just started a 90 Day Shape Up Challenge over on my forum, you might wanna join in?

Also checkout my interview and articles they may help!

Interview
http://www.realgainz.com/Fruitarian

Building Muscle on Fruits Article
http://z12.invisionfree.com/FLF/index.php?showtopic=1728

It definatly can be done but it's a process!

[dextera3]

I used to supplement with whey protein powders, but I'm trying to transition to all raw. Sprouts are the answer! They are packed with protein, and I just blend them up in a smoothie. A large (20oz.) fruit smoothie can hide about 2-3 cups of blended sprouts, AND still taste delish! :)

This is my #1 concern about going raw as well, since I lift weights and do distance running.

[i<3veggies]

i'm in the same boat...but just starting today, kind of scared about the protein issue...

but my body needs to heal ....

PLEASE keep posting about your progress...

[JerseyDevil]

i'm in the same boat...but just starting today, kind of scared about the protein issue...

but my body needs to heal ....

PLEASE keep posting about your progress...

I have not eaten meat in 6 days but, I've been working out pretty religiously but, nothing too intense.

However, yesterday I did come back from a very intense workout - Chest and biceps with over 600 calories burned from cardio alone (I was feeling very energetic).

As I was making my way home...I could not deny the insatiable craving I had for MEAT. It was almost.....primal. I mean not just any kind of meat....Grilled Chicken in Seasame Ginger sauce with a baked potato and all the trimmings.

I went home and dealt with the craving as much as I could. I made a huge salad of cucumbers, tomatos, onions, green and red peppers, and some sliced zuccini. I devoured the huge salad in it's entirity and it did NOTHING to queel my craving for MEAT.

I ate a handful of sprouted Almonds...

Nothing.

I had a tall glass of carrot juice and waited a half and hour.

Nothing.

The craving was still there.

So I went to the store and got a few slices of chicken breast. Grilled em' up along with a baked potato and I'm not gonna kid you - they tasted great.

I feel good today and I don't feel sluggish or any side affects from eating Grilled Chicken.

I will further experiment with staying off meat to see if these cravings return. In the meantime, I shall continue to remain RAW eating fruits, veggies, nuts, berries, juices, etc.

I might have to tone down the intensity of my work outs. It seems to more intense my workouts get...the larger my craving for meat.

I will keep you all updated. But feel free to share your own thoughts.

Take care,

JerseyDevil

[Stina]

You will surely experience some detoxing, just don't mistake it for failure of the Raw food lifestyle. You got Alissa's book right? She extensively covers the protein issue.

[JerseyDevil]

You got Alissa's book right? She extensively covers the protein issue.

Yeah I read it from cover to cover and I thought it was great. I read her chapter about protein and paid very care attention to her words.

Here's my thought....

Men are responsible for way more muscle mass than Women. Not to say that Alyssia didn't put on muscle and keep it on...I've seen pictures of her ripped. But, Guys have to put on and protect way more muscle than a female does. I see a lot of people who lost weight on her diet and that's great if you're overweight. But, what if you're like me and you're looking to add more muscle to your frame. What if you're looking to possibly compete in an amature body building competetion in a year. Are nuts and berries really the best way to go?

Just saying.

[i<3veggies]

i've done that so many times....
and ended up going back to eating cooked food..

i want to go 100&#37; raw though because it makes me feel great...right now i'm starving...because i haven't got the stuff together to do this yet... it seems like such a huge project.

is green tea raw? what about red wine?

i guess i will have some avocado or something...

instictively...i want to eat a veggie burger for the protein..but ...i only have the cooked ones!!

[JerseyDevil]

is green tea raw?

what about red wine?

i guess i will have some avocado or something...

I have Alyssia's book right in front of me and although I'm certain she mentions something about Green Tea (can't remember if she was for or against it) but....

this is what she has to say about caffine:

"Caffine is nothing but bad news! In her book, Go for It, Gail Olinekova writes: "Besides creating the nervous symptoms, caffeine causes other reactions which are focused on women. Painful breast lumps or cysts and breast cancer are linked to caffeine."


She goes into more detail in her book on page 171-172.

This is what she has to say about wine/ alcohol

"Alcohol slows your metabolism and is loaded with empty calories. Organic wine, without the sulfites added, is raw. So, if you're going to have a drink, choose this over beer or hard liquor."

I don't think there's anything wrong with a glass of red wine every now and again (as long as it's done in moderation) - by that's just my humble opinion. I didn't write a book about this stuff nor is this my board so you might want to keep that in mind that my words are merely opinion not fact. Of course I'm no fool to realize that my opinion about allowing yourself to have a glass of red wine every now and again begs the question...what do you consider "every now and again"...and what do you consider "moderation."

As for Green Tea?

I don't know. I mean, if it's harbored raw with no preservatives or anything I think it's still considered RAW. Not 100% sure about that though. Good question.

Now if you'll exscuse me....

I'm going to spoil myself and have a plate of tree bark parmesan ;)

[solarliving]

Fruitarianone,

Thanks for those links on Richard Blackman. I found his knowledge very useful as well as inspiring.

[rawfigure]

Hello, welcome !

I competed for 5 years in Figure Division (and on BB Show), but I went Raw at time I stopped competing. But if I were to compete again I would stay raw.

I do not worry about protein intake at all. I just eat loads of fruit, avo and some brazil nuts. I like Thors Raw protein Powder as a supplement, good in a smoothie.:D

[i<3veggies]

thanks jerseydevil...

that's awesome news to me rawfigure....

[RebeccaI]

Raw Power by Stephen Arlin - he is a body builder and completely ripped. Very impressive!!

HTH

[Fruitarianone]

Fruitarianone,

Thanks for those links on Richard Blackman. I found his knowledge very useful as well as inspiring.

Fruitarianone is Richard Blackman.....:D

Fruitarianone is just my user name!

[StudentforLife]

greens! greens! greens! these are the most important. put some spirulina and hemp seed in your smoothies.

[JerseyDevil]

I competed for 5 years in Figure Division (and on BB Show), but I went Raw at time I stopped competing. But if I were to compete again I would stay raw.

(1) What weight division did you compete in?

(2) Do you still actively train (even though you're not competing)

Also...

(3) What were the effects the RAW diet had on your muscle (since you said you started the diet AFTER you retired from competing).

(4) Did your muscles canabalize at all when you first went RAW (assuming you were still in peak condition when you first went on the diet).

(5) You have to admit that men have a lot more muscle to put on and protect than women do (speaking as body builders). That said...do you know any well known MALE body builders who've used the raw diet to their success.

(5a) What suppliementation (if any) did they use?

I just can't imagine Frank Zane hitting a Shoulder and Lat routine and night cardio - then going home and blending up a bunch of sprouts for protein.



I do not worry about protein intake at all.

Let me ask you this (without trying to sound too much like a lawyer) if you were competing...would you worry about it? Or do you think the regiment of what you're eating now would be enough (assuming you still work out) without having to add or change anything around.


I just eat loads of fruit, avo and some brazil nuts. I like Thors Raw protein Powder as a supplement, good in a smoothie.:D

I'll definitely check it out. Thank you for letting me know :D

You see...here's the thing. I know there's a huge difference between the muscle a woman puts on vs. the muscle a guy puts on (wouldn't you agree?). I mean....a guy has to put on so much more muscle than women do (and on top of that...that's just how we're build). Not to say that the women's task of peaking before a show is any less difficult - But don't you think there's a huge difference between being a woman body builder going Raw vs. a male body builder and going Raw? I mean I'm going to have to pack on a ton of muscle this year before competing in an amature show summer of 08'. Going RAW would help me cut up maybe...but I am just so confused because one group is saying "take your weight in protein" and the raw group is saying "Don't worry about your protein intake. You'll be fine as long as you stay raw."

I can't help but feel like a member of a jury and watching two trial lawyers plead their case.

One saying

High Protein diet (Whey, Grilled Chicken, Salmon, etc) mixed with Intense weight training is the way to build muscle.

The other saying...

High Vegetable, Fruit, Green Veggies, Juices, Nuts and berries diet mixed with Intense weight training is the correct way to build muscle.

Personally, I think you can get away with going RAW if you're a female because there's less muscle to build (thus less muscle to protect) vs. being a MALE body building and going raw and have to worry about all of your hard earned muscle canabalizing itself.

I'd love to hear the thoughts of any male body builders out there who are going raw.

I think going raw is a great way to be healthy and lose weight.

My goal is to be healthy and gain muscle.

I'm open to your thoughs.....

JerseyDevil

[rawfigure]

Based on your post I have to wonder if you really want to go Raw ? It sounds like you are advocating that you cannot be Raw and Build muscle ? I build muscle with weights, if you build muscle with protein then the average American (think of those on Adkins) would be more muscular !!!!!

Yes I am Female but the difference between Male and Female Bodybuilders are not that mush different. The only difference is weight...if a Male competes at 5 % bodyfat and a Female at 6-7 %...on a percentage basis they have about the same amount of muscle.

Me protecting 5 lbs of muscle is like you prtecting 10...but % wise we are in the same boat.

When I went Raw I maintained my muscle, no prob., then one year into Raw I decided not to compete (Lightweight) and wanted to lose some muscle.

No I did not lose muscle from lack of protein. I reduced my weights to lose muscle. And cardio. I lost about 4 pounds of muscle through ALOT of EFFORT. I wanted to lose some muscle as in the "real world" I felt I did not need to maintain the BB look.

I will answer more later but for now Off to Work Out !!!

[dreamrawalwz]

Muscle doesn't come from protein. You will get MORE "protein" from raw foods rather than meat. You may think you were getting 200g of protein from animal sources when in reality you may have been getting 50-100g only due to the assimilation factor, or lack of by your body, as well as cooking the meat in the first place. Raw plants contain amino acids, which proteain is converted into to be used. Why not skip the process of converting and eat the amino acids directly? It doesn't matter if you're male, female, bodybuilding, or not...that much protein you were consuming will do more damage to you than good. Why not be healthy and strong rather than harming your kidneys and stuff? Fruitariaone is a WONDERFUL example and eats only fruit, which has enough protein for any body to sustain. I believe higher green intake will help dramatically with building your muscles and energy. Just a thought. Why not just try it and then if you feel it's best to return to your other diet, then so be it. However, the first 1-4 weeks raw you may get intense detox depending on how toxic you are. Don't mistake this for the raw diet not working.

I'm not a male or a body building, so you could ignore all of this if you want.

[i<3veggies]

jerseydevil...
check your private messages.

[JerseyDevil]

jerseydevil...
check your private messages.

I don't see any personal messages. When I clicked on my USER CP and tried listing my private messages it said this:

vBulletin Message
Your administrator has disabled private messaging.

Can I change the setting to allow private messages? If so, where can I go. Thanks. Sorry if I'm being a pain. I'm still new to the board and I'm trying to figure the technical stuff out.

Peace,

JerseyDevil

[i<3veggies]

i was able to send one... i don't see how to check them....weird...maybe this board doesn't allow it..but why could i send it?lol

ok anyway, what i said in the message:

have you ever heard of the raw foodists that eat raw meat? it has to be freshly killed, with all the enzymes still alive....
they say that you grow large amounts of muscle, even without training and your energy level is very high too.

i only read about this and have never tried it...and i know this board is not about this...but if i were a guy and i wanted to get huge...i would look into it...

i don't see how it's possible to get huge without it...are there any examples? i mean if there were even one....
not just buff, but i mean BB large....

i couldn't kill anything, but...just wanted to put it out there...

[rawfigure]

(1) What weight division did you compete in?

Lightweight

(2) Do you still actively train (even though you're not competing)

Yes I train, but my approach is totally different. I no longer obsess about it.

(3) What were the effects the RAW diet had on your muscle (since you said you started the diet AFTER you retired from competing).

None..... It was/is all about Energy. On my Hi Protein Diet I was always tired. On Raw (lots of fruit) I have more engery to train so I can go longer harder...more muscle. As it has been said Muscle comes from stress to the muscle. You will lack energy before you lack protein.

(4) Did your muscles canabalize at all when you first went RAW (assuming you were still in peak condition when you first went on the diet).

No.... Why would they, unless I went on a starvation diet and did insane amount of cardio. Muscle does not just "go away" with out effort.

(5) You have to admit that men have a lot more muscle to put on and protect than women do (speaking as body builders). That said...do you know any well known MALE body builders who've used the raw diet to their success.


Women have a harder time adding muscle due to hormonal difference so it is harder for females to add and keep muscle. Men can look at a weight and build muscle.

(5a) What suppliementation (if any) did they use?

I have used MSM, Amino's like L Glutamine, Spirulina, Cholella (best IMO). I have Raw Power but not using much right now.

Let me ask you this (without trying to sound too much like a lawyer) if you were competing...would you worry about it?

No, I would worry more about getting super lean. The muscle is there the job is getting to 7&#37; bodyfat !

I know there's a huge difference between the muscle a woman puts on vs. the muscle a guy puts on (wouldn't you agree?).

[No, I do not agree.Muscle needed to compete is the same female or male, no difference. In knowing both in the competition world we all faced the same challenges, muscle symmetry and biggest challenge is not getting the muscle it is KEEPING it in the cutdown. Then Stage Presence will make or break you, sometimes the most muscular does not win....

Personally, I think you can get away with going RAW if you're a female because there's less muscle to build (thus less muscle to protect) vs. being a MALE body building and going raw and have to worry about all of your hard earned muscle canabalizing itself.

See above....



Good luck on your Journey.

[solarliving]

Fruitarianone,

I am laughing at myself. I should have looked at your picture : )

[Fruitarianone]

Fruitarianone,

I am laughing at myself. I should have looked at your picture : )

No worries :D

[Fruitarianone]

Dreamrawalts has it right....forget "protien" get your amino acids straight from the source and heal yourself.....

Anyway anyone that thinks that you can't build muscle, get active, be healthy on raw "plant" foods is welcome to check this out:

http://z12.invisionfree.com/FLF/index.php?showtopic=1784

it's just a matter of putting the work in....

Yeah we can eat raw meat and get by but then again we can eat cooked foods too but it doesn't mean that it's good for us!

Bodybuilding is a human past time made up by people that want to look a certain way, which is cool, but when you go raw the body has it's own work to do and knows nothing about you needing to look buff, so be aware that the body has it's own needs and agenda when it comes to going raw and bodybuilding.

;)

[i<3veggies]

jerseydevil ...how are you doing?

this is day #3 for me, i'm doing really well, but worried about fat intake

[JerseyDevil]

jerseydevil ...how are you doing?

this is day #3 for me, i'm doing really well, but worried about fat intake

Hey I<3Veggies,

This is Day #9 for me and I feel great. I was 100% RAW for a week and it just wasn't for me. Currently I'm not 100% RAW (I'd say 80% at this point) but I have benefited tremendously by reading Alyssia's book from cover to cover and learning as much as I did from food combining and such.

On top of going to Grad School...I'm currently getting ready for a amature body building competition next summer (as an incentive to really step up my game this year).

And Fruitarian has an awesome body - no doubt about that. But, I'm want to be bigger than that....and that's just my own desire and my own reality.

So this is what's what....

For breakfast I'll have 2-3 bananas.

Intense Weight training for 1 body part - Cardio which consists of either: Capoedia/ Jujitsu/ Yoga/ Intense Stretching/ Running/etc)

For breakfast snack I'll have some baby carrots.

For Lunch I'll have an apple or 2.

For lunch snack I'll have salad with a little whole wheat bread.

Intense Weight training + Cardio

For Dinner I'll have some grilled chicken + big salad and a dry baked potato sprinkled with sea salt and oregano for seasoning.

For Desert I'll have a mango or an apple or some sort of fruit.

The thing is...before I would not have included so many fruits and veggies in my diet - and now I do and even if I'm not 100% RAW - I've learned a great deal to include this stuff in my diet.

My time is crunched at this point where I sometimes can't even go out on dates at night because of how grueling my schedule is - so for me to wait around 8 hours for some flax bread?

Yeah...that's not happening.

But either way...I still reference Alyssia's book for a lot of stuff - especially food combining and the protein section.

And I feel great.

I don't feel sluggish.

I don't feel like garbage or anything because I'm eating grilled chicken and the occasional grilled salmon.

I feel good.

I don't think going 100% RAW is for everyone. I do however think it's worthwhile for people to read about it and possibily give it a shot. Worst case scenario they'll probably be eating a lot more fruits and veggies in their diet - and in the grand scheme of things - I don't see how that's a bad thing.

I did noticed that all of RAW Diets before and after pics are of people who were fat and lost a ton of weight.

And that's great.

In fact that's awesome.

But I'm not here for weight loss.

I'm here for a possible option to build temendous amounts of muscle. And so far I'm not seeing any particularly convincing results (I'm not trying to be a smartass when I say that...I'm just being honest). There isn't one picture of a guy who is already in great shape BEFORE he went raw...then went raw and his AFTER picture has him even bigger with muscles. Note: not cut up. I'm talking about a definite change in muscle - where his muscles are noticibly bigger as a result of the RAW diet (mixed with intense weight training of course). If anybody has a pic please post it.

In the meantime...I'll keep ya'll posted as I progress on this semi-RAW journey. I tip my hat to anybody who can do it all the way 100%.

I mean...*I* might even be 100% raw someday. But that day aint today (for now).

Peace,

JerseyDevil

[Solace]

Jerseydevil = It doesn't sound like you are eating nearly enough for the amount of training you do.

[JerseyDevil]

Jerseydevil = It doesn't sound like you are eating nearly enough for the amount of training you do.

Just listening to my body...if I want more...I eat more. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel or anything. Just keeping it simple. But don't worry...I'm eating plenty :D

[DEEPSQUAT]

Let me start reply by saying I have been a silent observer on this board for about 1 year now, and during that time I have come to learn more about nutrition, than in the previous 45 years of my life. I would also like to compliment all of the folks that have contributed information during the past year; the folks here are great people, kind, compassionate and a great base of knowledge.

My personal story is much like yours, I have been hanging around gyms and lifting weights all of my life, and believed much like you, more protein is better to get huge and have serious strength. For the past 5 years, my lifting has been focused around power lifting, the basic 3, bench, squats, and dead lifting. I gained enormous amounts of strength and mass, when lifting this way, while eating pretty much anything with protein, and very little food that was green. I ate fruit, but veggies were non-existent.

Last year, when searching the internet, I found this website, and immediately became intrigued by what these people were talking about. I truly believed I ate high quality food, free-range beef, boneless chicken breasts, raw milk, raw cheese, lots of fish, whole grains, etc. I was kind of wrong.

I started trying more veggies and fruits, and then I moved into more homemade desserts, using coconuts, agave, and carob. I was amazed at how good these things tasted, once I removed all can/boxed processed foods. Over the past year I have migrated to a 90% raw diet and lost 40 pounds went from 225 to 185.


Today, my breakfast starts with a green smoothie, consisting of the following types of ingredients:

Parsley
Basil
Cilantro
Water cress
Collards
Kale
Dandelions
2 kinds of fruit, one fresh, one frozen (blueberry, blackberry, strawberry)
Flax seed
Chia seed
Hemp protein
Maca

Morning snack is a frozen blackberry or raspberry
Lunch consists of fruit, flax crackers, fermented foods and sardines, plus green tea
Afternoon snack is more fruit, carrots, celery, radishes, and nuts
Dinner is usually some kind of veggies, with some added fish. Sometimes on lifting days, I eat two eggs on hemp bread with coconut oil as butter, and finish up with Kombuca Tea. These days I have tremendous energy when I lift.



Today, I continue to include raw honey, wild caught salmon, sardines, free range eggs into my diet, but these are the only non-raw items I believe in. This way of eating is a life time commitment to excellent health.

Your concern is around maintaining muscle mass, I do not believe I have loss any mass, but cleaned my body out of lots of energy draining dead weight. I started doing more Olympic style lifting during this past year. I truly believe at my heavier body weight, it was hindering my energy levels and flexibility. The Olympic lifts I find more challenging physically and mentally, but they are more rewarding in my overall conditioning and produce a better physique. I do Oly lifts twice a week and my third workout is a basic strength work out, squats, heavy type rows and dead lifts/and or strongman farmers walks.

I am 47 years old, have a more ripped body, can keep up/and even out perform 99% of the people in my gym, many younger guys with big egos, chests and arms. I give credit to this ability to increasing the level of raw foods in my diet.

Sorry for rambling on, but don’t give up yet, keep experimenting and find out what works best for you.

[rawfigure]

So JD you are not eating (even High ) Raw or Vegetarian, you posted you ate chicken and Alissa site is Vegetarian, so what is the Attraction to a forum that is Raw Vegetarian/VEGAN ? :confused:

[Solace]

So JD you are not eating (even High ) Raw or Vegetarian, you posted you ate chicken and Alissa site is Vegetarian, so what is the Attraction to a forum that is Raw Vegetarian/VEGAN ? :confused:

Ya I am still confused too. You say you are getting enough and listening to your body BUT you are still eating animal protein ? So are you or aren't you asking for help ? You asked how to get protein and we are all VEGAN sooo we are telling you what we see from what you wrote. If you want to go raw than use the Vegan-proteins. Again ??? If you want to go RAW you will need to UP your intake of fruits and veggies and then maybe you wont feel the need to eat a CHICKEN.:cool:

[i<3veggies]

well jerseydevil,
i am eating way more than that, probably too much, but if i didn't i would be eating the chicken that i fried for my family last night too.
i don't need to lose weight either. my muscles do not seem as full as when i am eating protein, but everything else is improving, in just a few days.

[rawfigure]

well jerseydevil,
i am eating way more than that, probably too much, but if i didn't i would be eating the chicken that i fried for my family last night too.
i don't need to lose weight either. my muscles do not seem as full as when i am eating protein, but everything else is improving, in just a few days.


There are so many misconceptions about Protein.
Muscle fullness does not come from protein but from water and glycogen in the muscles. That is why just before a show BB's carb load.

[i<3veggies]

well, when i started eatin high protein, my body changed drastically for the better...i had muscle where i didn't even know it was possible...i went from a size 8 to a 0 and my waist went from 27 to 22 inches.....
but i was training like 6 hours a day...

i couldn't do this forever, i started getting sick and then did food combining (not raw)and yoga for a long time.

but i love weight training and i love feeling really strong...

i'm hoping that i can get the energy back, and pick up my training heavy again, but even if i can't train that hard, i know how much better i am feeling..

but i am so hungry for some cooked food....!!!

[rawfigure]

but i was training like 6 hours a day...

but i love weight training and i love feeling really strong...

....!!!

There is the answer, it is the training that contribute the most to the fact you were able to become muscular and leaner.

[rjsmom]

I agree with Jerseydevil...you need to eat more to gain more muscle! I was a bodybuilder (female) and have trained other bodybuilders for competition (not raw) and I know for sure that you will have to increase your food intake to gain more muscle if you continue to eat cooked and raw foods. Hope that helps!

[i<3veggies]

what do you find as far as the protein connection goes???

do we need more or not?

my muscles don't feel right, and i am tired....

i went ahead on 2 occasions and ate some cooked protein, but now with all the fat i've been getting from nuts and avocados...i'm freaking out.....

this is so confusing.....

instictively i feel i need the protein....am i not tearing down instead of building....like i have been believeing for years....

how much protein does a female bb need? or male for that matter...

to add significant muscle?

how many grams?

are there any raw competitors.....

i do a bb program for ultimate shape, but not to compete...and it is no less important to me to maintain this body that i have worked so many years for....

any suggestions to help clarify....

[JerseyDevil]

Due to my studies I haven't had the time to reply to some of your posts. But, I do have a little time now so I thought I would address a few things that some members of this forum have posted on this thread:


RAW FIGURE: Based on your post I have to wonder if you really want to go Raw ? It sounds like you are advocating that you cannot be Raw and Build muscle?

Re-read my post and if you're still confused read this next line:

I am NOT advocating anything.

I have tried going 100% raw but, it wasn't for me. That's not to say that I haven't incorporated the knowledge from the RAW diet into my daily living and/ or my food consumption (because I have). You'll see in a previous post my current diet and it's about 80-90% RAW. There's some grilled chicken and salmon in there. I can admit as much. Perhaps I should've posted my meals *before* I discovered the Raw diet so you could see the change. I can tell you now that my diet before hand was 20-30% raw and I felt tired all the time, lack of energy, depression, etc. So increasing the amount of raw veggies, fruits, nuts, etc - has definitely had a great impact on me. I may give the raw diet another shot in the future. Who knows. I think it's worth checking out further. But as of right now...I'm 85%-90% raw. I'm here to learn different concepts, ideas, and possibilities -- *NOT* to debunk anybody's diet or whatever. That's not what I'm about. You have to do what works for you.

As I've said before I'm not advocating anything. I am merely trying to uncover the truth....and so far a lot of posts (no offense) are merely speculation.

I really enjoyed DEEPSQUAT's words. Thanks for that post man. I really appreciated your words. I will definitely incorporate your diet and more olympic style exercises into my routine for sure.

To save some of you the trouble...here's what DEEPSQUAT said about what he eats:


Today, I continue to include raw honey, wild caught salmon, sardines, free range eggs into my diet, but these are the only non-raw items I believe in.

I post I had some grilled chicken and some want to nail me to a cross because you think I'm trying to advocate something or plant my flag in your vegan soil.

Relax.

I'm here to learn and me posting I ate grilled chicken and felt fine afterwards is my contribution. Everyone was saying that if you eat meat you're gonna feel like shit. Well I eat it and I felt fine. Perhaps you may not agree with it but, that's your perogative. But, I'm being honest. There's a flip side to that coin of eating meat and feeling fine. That's all I'm saying. And if I'm going to post on this thing I'm going to be honest.

Is there any truth to support some of these thoughts -eg- protein doesn't build muscle?

RAW FIGURE says:

There are so many misconceptions about Protein.
Muscle fullness does not come from protein but from water and glycogen in the muscles. That is why just before a show BB's carb load.

also...

DREAMRAWALWZ says:


DREAMRAWALWZ wrote: Muscle doesn't come from protein. You will get MORE "protein" from raw foods rather than meat.

Okay. That's the meat of this whole thing. But where is the proof?

I could say the moon is made of cheese or the tooth fairy is gonna cure cancer but, where's the evidence?

I mean, if this is such groundbreaking shit why has this 100% RAW diet not made it's way to mainstream body building? Body Builders are always looking for an edge on the competition to build muscle and they have ZERO attachments to any eating habits. Trust me there. And I'm talking about natural body builders by the way. Ones that I know and work out with. I'm not talking about the guys who shoot up Growth Hormone or are just blessed to have fantastic genes for building muscle. I work out with plenty of natural body builders and they are smart as a whip when it comes to what works with the body because they're always experimenting. They have been in the body building curcuit for years and have tried numberous different things to build and maintain muscle and when I've told them about the 100% raw diet they all said it was important to eat raw veggies, fruits, nuts, but to go 100%Raw? and try to put on serious mass for a show? Not happening. Their words...not mine. All I'm saying is why don't they try the raw diet to build muscle? Why do trainers who train celebrities to get in TIP TOP shape advocate a high protein diet to get John Q. Celebrity as ripped, lean, and buff for a movie? If they could do it quicker and more effieciently going RAW then would don't they advocate it more? There's something to be said about all of this. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to be a wise ass about it...I'm just legitamitly saying:

Where's the proof that protein doesn't play a part in building muscle? I'm not saying protein is the only componet because I know it's not.

All I'm saying is: If Amino acids are so big then why don't body builders eat a big bowl of greens when they finish a workout.

I know...because I tried it for 10 days and here's what I found out:

For 10 days I listened to a suggestion from a Raw fooder friend of mine of eating greens when I finish working out because they're filled with all the things your body needs to build muscle he said.

Okay...

So I measured my arms, my legs, my calves, etc of my body.

Guess what?

In comparion to 10 days I ate only greens after I worked out

vs.

10 days where I took in whey protein + greens after I worked)

The growth on every single one of the muscle I measured GREW more than TWICE as much in the 10 days I took Whey after I worked out vs. the 10 days I ate baby spininch, broccoli, cucumbers, etc. after I worked out.

That says something.

And yes, my workouts and cardio remained consistent to make it even.

So people can say whatever they want but, I actually went out there and tried this stuff. So this isn't speculating. It's what's worked for my body. Not saying it'll work with yours if you a guy building muscle but, that's what's worked for mine. Take it for what it's worth.

All I'm saying is that I'm coming from a different angle here entirely.

I'm looking to build mass muscle for a show next year. And I'm eagarly waiting for someone to show me concrete proof /or a formula or whatever that their non-protein diet can build massive muscle for a guy (Note: Not a woman who have much less muscle mass to put on). Let me know - you'd have an avid listener. But the thing is....no one here has offered any real proof.

Fruitarian has offered a great link to his site with some great info. He's got a great body. I don't dispute that. But I'm looking to be bigger than Fruitarian. That's my goal. All I'm saying now is....forget the fluff. Forget the propoganda. Forget about what you read in some book or heard from some Yoga instructor.

Where's the evidence?

I'm not looking to be a Tri-Anothon runner.

I'm not looking for more energy.

I'm not looking to "cut up"

I'm not looking to loose weight.

I AM LOOKING TO BUILD MASS MUSCLE.

Where's the conrete stuff for a 100% RAW diet that proves that a 100% raw - non-protein diet a guy can use to build muscle?

Just saying...

Back to my studies,

Peace.

JerseyDevil

[Sharon in Colorado]

http://www.thegardendiet.com/storm2.html

You might want to check out Storm's bio.

[jerseygirl1969]

Have you ever looked at a horse? I mean realllly looked at a horse? He is all muscle. Why? because he consumes a raw vegan diet. The raw diet is based on amino acids, the building blocks of protein. When you cook your food, whether it be veges or meat, you cook the essentials right out of the food. For example, cook an egg. the consistency is changed, right? That is because the egg protein is now denatured. You are no longer getting the protein benefits from the egg. Same is true for cooking meat, fish, chicken, etc. When you eat raw veges, nuts, algae, and fruit, you consume amino acids, the building blocks of protein, in their pure form. Your body will produce protein to build muscle. Furthermore, when you only eat a raw vegan diet, you will loose body fat, and become leaner. After only 6 weeks of becoming raw, my mother, who hadn't seen me since that time, noticed how lean I had become. I have a lot of muscle definition without having exercised (that is my next goal that I am working on). As you become raw, you will loose fat and weight, but will eventually even out the weight as you build muscle. It is not that muscle weighs more than fat, but that muscle is more dense than fat. There are many athletes that are vegan. I recently read an article (although I don't remember who it was) in vegnews, about an olympic champion who is vegan. So, it is possible that you will become a champion by eating raw.

To stifle your cravings for cooked food, get rid of your cooking utensils. donate them to goodwill. Set your food dehydrator on top of your stove and store nuts and such in your oven. You'll know have more room for storage!

[jerseygirl1969]

"Okay. That's the meat of this whole thing. But where is the proof?

I could say the moon is made of cheese or the tooth fairy is gonna cure cancer but, where's the evidence?

I mean, if this is such groundbreaking shit why has this 100% RAW diet not made it's way to mainstream body building?"

There is no "proof" because the farmers are just barely making enough money to pay their workers to pick produce and to ship it to the stores (plus pay for those nasty pesticides if they are not organic). Studies require sponsors and money. When you are GNC, you have lots of money, and you can sponsor studies for the new age whey protein that makes muscles larger. GNC isn't going to sponsor the local farmer to do studies using raw carrots from the ground, because GNC can't make any money from selling carrots. Also, the FDA sponsors new food industries to make junk food. Watch the Super Size Me video extras for details. so, the whole industry works against promoting fresh fruits and veges that are the best things to put into your body.

To demonstrate my point, consider the drug industry. There were some preliminary studies using fish oil as adjunct treatment to relieve bipolar patients of an acute manic episode. Of course, placebo was measured blindly against fish oil. There was such a dramatic change between the two groups, that the researchers knew who had the fish oil vs who had the placebo. It became unethical for them to not give the other patients the fish oil because of the improvement. However, these studies aren't widely published nor known in the psychiatry community. Why? Because Eli Lilly, Glaxo-Smith-Kline and Pfizer don't make fish oil. It's over the counter. And, it would be a very inexpensive alternative to the expensive drugs that have been studied to treat bipolar disorder. Generic, over the counter products don't have the money to produce the studies, patients will complain that their insurance doesn't cover it, and the generic's will rely on rumors that it works.

You may not be eating enough and that could be the reason for the low muscle mass gain. You may want to try concentrated herbs and vegetables offered by companies such as SUNRIDER products (do a google search, you'll find the web site).

good luck,
jg'69

[rawfigure]

My point was that this is a Vegetarian Forum as defined by Alissa. So if the the discussion of meat for protein will eventually get closed or deleted by a Monitor.

[i<3veggies]

a horse is a horse ....

some people have more muscle genetically as well.

where are the examples of success?

i know it cures, but can you do bodybuilding on it......?

you say, yes, ok.....show some examples.....

storm you say? he doesn't look like a bodybuilder, although he looks good and healthy for his age.

i love the raw thing....but i'm thinking jerseydevil is right ....it might be best to eat raw and incorporate cooked protein....

what about the raw protein powder? i haven't checked that out yet....if it has lots of protein in in then, maybe that is the answer???

i was vegetarian, consuming about 120 g of protein daily or more and i grew ...

[Fruitarianone]

a horse is a horse ....

some people have more muscle genetically as well.

where are the examples of success?

i know it cures, but can you do bodybuilding on it......?

you say, yes, ok.....show some examples.....

storm you say? he doesn't look like a bodybuilder, although he looks good and healthy for his age.

i love the raw thing....but i'm thinking jerseydevil is right ....it might be best to eat raw and incorporate cooked protein....

what about the raw protein powder? i haven't checked that out yet....if it has lots of protein in in then, maybe that is the answer???

i was vegetarian, consuming about 120 g of protein daily or more and i grew ...

Well from reading through these posts I really don't think anything anyone has to say is going to please you but I'm gonna go out on a limb and share these with you, I'm not a bodybuilder per se and I'm not the biggest guy in the world but check this out on a diet of just fruits, no nuts, greens or supplements, just a mono fruit diet!

Me!

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/249/ava00710jf.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava00710jf.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8044/ava00817tl.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava00817tl.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9358/ava01017ps.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava01017ps.jpg)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/4032/ava01115eb.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava01115eb.jpg)

You can also checkout other vids here.

http://z12.invisionfree.com/FLF/index.php?showtopic=1784

I doubt it but if your enquiries are sincere I hope it helps.

F1

[JerseyDevil]

My point was that this is a Vegetarian Forum as defined by Alissa. So if the the discussion of meat for protein will eventually get closed or deleted by a Monitor.

I'm just searching for the truth. I'm being honest, fair, and open minded about all of this. And if in the process of looking at both sides of this coin - the thread gets closed - so be it. But that should say something.


JerseyGirl1969 says:For example, cook an egg. the consistency is changed, right? That is because the egg protein is now denatured. You are no longer getting the protein benefits from the egg. Same is true for cooking meat, fish, chicken, etc.

That's a bit of a stretch. You see this is what I mean. You're posting information without backing any of it up. Sure the consistency of an egg is changed when you cook it. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that the protein inside of it is now "denatured." According to who? You? I'm not coming down on you. I'm really not. But, you're not showing any reference points. If I was a professor and you were writing a paper about this. And you said (above quote), I'd say "Okay, well that's interesting. What sources do you have to back this theory up?" And if you said "Umm...well...I don't have any. It's just my own thought." I'd say well then your entire argument is speculation and you have no evidence to back up you're claim.


F

You see where I'm going with this? Show me an article about this. Send me a link. Show me a study to back this claim up. I don't say Whey protein will make your muscles grow more than eating a bowl of greens. I actually *tried* it. I conducted an experiment (see previous post) and I proved that in 10 days my muscle grew more from injesting Whey protein after I worked out vs. eating a bowl of greens. As for the whole....Horse thing? A horse is a horse....a human being is a human being. If I really wanted to slam your argument I'd say look at Cows. Cows eat the same damn thing and they're fatter than Roseanne. If I really wanted to slam your argument I'd say look at the North American Grey Wolf. They're packed with muscle. And their diet consists of nothing but meat. But, I'm *NOT* arguing an all meat diet. Horses are horses. Cows are cows. Wolves are wolves. And humans are humans. Despite the fact that we're all mammals each animal is built differently...as are humans. So you can't say look at a horse anymore than I can say look at a cow...or a wolf. There are come conclusions you could draw but, you can't base your entire arugment on it.


JerseyGirl1969 says: There is no "proof" because the farmers are just barely making enough money to pay their workers to pick produce and to ship it to the stores (plus pay for those nasty pesticides if they are not organic). Studies require sponsors and money.

I would say there is no "proof" because I have yet to find 1 competitive male body builder who is 100% raw.


When you are GNC, you have lots of money, and you can sponsor studies for the new age whey protein that makes muscles larger. GNC isn't going to sponsor the local farmer to do studies using raw carrots from the ground, because GNC can't make any money from selling carrots.

Anybody who looks to "GNC" or "MuscleTech" or "Champion Nutrition" or <Insert Suppliment company here> for a nutritional guide should be dragged out into the street and shot. Obviously there's an agenda - sell more product. Everybody here has different goals. My goal is to build MASS MUSCLE through going raw. And I'm seeing more and more that it's something that's just not possible. That guy Storm I checked out looked great but, he's *not* a body builder. He's lean. He's muscular. He's cut. Hell...I'm sure he's even a great father (judging by the kid he was holding). But if he did a body building show he wouldn't even rank. Trust me.

I don't need GNC or any other suppliment company to tell me that whey protein makes muscles larger. I tried it myself and surprise surpirse...my muscles grew more with whey than they did with a bowl of raw broccoli. I did it for 10 days. There's the proof.


Also, the FDA sponsors new food industries to make junk food. Watch the Super Size Me video extras for details. so, the whole industry works against promoting fresh fruits and veges that are the best things to put into your body.

I have watched Super Size Me. And I watched all of the little extras. And I'm not advocating fast food at all. But I would say look to a lot of body builders and they will tell you (as will I) how crucial it is to have fresh fruits and veggies in your diet for proper nuitrition and for proper mass muscle gain.


Fruitarian says: if your enquiries are sincere I hope it helps

It does Fruitarian and my enquiries *are* sincere (at least I *know* they're sincere...how they're percieved by some on this board is another story perhaps)

Thank you Fruitarian for posting your pics. Again, I will say you've got a fantasic body.

If I can steer this thread back to actually learning something...

Fruitarian could you post some of your workout routine (how many sets - how many reps - how often do you change exercise - etc) as well as your cardio routine? I'd really love to see what works for you.

Also what fruits (no veggies at all?) or whatever do you for your 4-6 meals?

Thanks

JerseyDevil

[Solace]

What books have you read and are you here for more than how you LOOK on the outside ? We are here healing cronic illnesses and stopping things like cancer in the future. There are thousands of examples of people that have healed themselves in the RAW community. The info is out there if your really searching for something more than muscle. I believe you have had a lot of people on here send you links for things besides eating broccoli right..................

[Fruitarianone]

Due to my studies I haven't had the time to reply to some of your posts. But, I do have a little time now so I thought I would address a few things that some members of this forum have posted on this thread:




Re-read my post and if you're still confused read this next line:

I am NOT advocating anything.

I have tried going 100% raw but, it wasn't for me. That's not to say that I haven't incorporated the knowledge from the RAW diet into my daily living and/ or my food consumption (because I have). You'll see in a previous post my current diet and it's about 80-90% RAW. There's some grilled chicken and salmon in there. I can admit as much. Perhaps I should've posted my meals *before* I discovered the Raw diet so you could see the change. I can tell you now that my diet before hand was 20-30% raw and I felt tired all the time, lack of energy, depression, etc. So increasing the amount of raw veggies, fruits, nuts, etc - has definitely had a great impact on me. I may give the raw diet another shot in the future. Who knows. I think it's worth checking out further. But as of right now...I'm 85%-90% raw. I'm here to learn different concepts, ideas, and possibilities -- *NOT* to debunk anybody's diet or whatever. That's not what I'm about. You have to do what works for you.

As I've said before I'm not advocating anything. I am merely trying to uncover the truth....and so far a lot of posts (no offense) are merely speculation.

I really enjoyed DEEPSQUAT's words. Thanks for that post man. I really appreciated your words. I will definitely incorporate your diet and more olympic style exercises into my routine for sure.

To save some of you the trouble...here's what DEEPSQUAT said about what he eats:



I post I had some grilled chicken and some want to nail me to a cross because you think I'm trying to advocate something or plant my flag in your vegan soil.

Relax.

I'm here to learn and me posting I ate grilled chicken and felt fine afterwards is my contribution. Everyone was saying that if you eat meat you're gonna feel like shit. Well I eat it and I felt fine. Perhaps you may not agree with it but, that's your perogative. But, I'm being honest. There's a flip side to that coin of eating meat and feeling fine. That's all I'm saying. And if I'm going to post on this thing I'm going to be honest.

Is there any truth to support some of these thoughts -eg- protein doesn't build muscle?

RAW FIGURE says:


also...

DREAMRAWALWZ says:



Okay. That's the meat of this whole thing. But where is the proof?

I could say the moon is made of cheese or the tooth fairy is gonna cure cancer but, where's the evidence?

I mean, if this is such groundbreaking shit why has this 100% RAW diet not made it's way to mainstream body building? Body Builders are always looking for an edge on the competition to build muscle and they have ZERO attachments to any eating habits. Trust me there. And I'm talking about natural body builders by the way. Ones that I know and work out with. I'm not talking about the guys who shoot up Growth Hormone or are just blessed to have fantastic genes for building muscle. I work out with plenty of natural body builders and they are smart as a whip when it comes to what works with the body because they're always experimenting. They have been in the body building curcuit for years and have tried numberous different things to build and maintain muscle and when I've told them about the 100% raw diet they all said it was important to eat raw veggies, fruits, nuts, but to go 100%Raw? and try to put on serious mass for a show? Not happening. Their words...not mine. All I'm saying is why don't they try the raw diet to build muscle? Why do trainers who train celebrities to get in TIP TOP shape advocate a high protein diet to get John Q. Celebrity as ripped, lean, and buff for a movie? If they could do it quicker and more effieciently going RAW then would don't they advocate it more? There's something to be said about all of this. That's all I'm saying.

I'm not trying to be a wise ass about it...I'm just legitamitly saying:

Where's the proof that protein doesn't play a part in building muscle? I'm not saying protein is the only componet because I know it's not.

All I'm saying is: If Amino acids are so big then why don't body builders eat a big bowl of greens when they finish a workout.

I know...because I tried it for 10 days and here's what I found out:

For 10 days I listened to a suggestion from a Raw fooder friend of mine of eating greens when I finish working out because they're filled with all the things your body needs to build muscle he said.

Okay...

So I measured my arms, my legs, my calves, etc of my body.

Guess what?

In comparion to 10 days I ate only greens after I worked out

vs.

10 days where I took in whey protein + greens after I worked)

The growth on every single one of the muscle I measured GREW more than TWICE as much in the 10 days I took Whey after I worked out vs. the 10 days I ate baby spininch, broccoli, cucumbers, etc. after I worked out.

That says something.

And yes, my workouts and cardio remained consistent to make it even.

So people can say whatever they want but, I actually went out there and tried this stuff. So this isn't speculating. It's what's worked for my body. Not saying it'll work with yours if you a guy building muscle but, that's what's worked for mine. Take it for what it's worth.

All I'm saying is that I'm coming from a different angle here entirely.

I'm looking to build mass muscle for a show next year. And I'm eagarly waiting for someone to show me concrete proof /or a formula or whatever that their non-protein diet can build massive muscle for a guy (Note: Not a woman who have much less muscle mass to put on). Let me know - you'd have an avid listener. But the thing is....no one here has offered any real proof.

Fruitarian has offered a great link to his site with some great info. He's got a great body. I don't dispute that. But I'm looking to be bigger than Fruitarian. That's my goal. All I'm saying now is....forget the fluff. Forget the propoganda. Forget about what you read in some book or heard from some Yoga instructor.

Where's the evidence?

I'm not looking to be a Tri-Anothon runner.

I'm not looking for more energy.

I'm not looking to "cut up"

I'm not looking to loose weight.

I AM LOOKING TO BUILD MASS MUSCLE.

Where's the conrete stuff for a 100% RAW diet that proves that a 100% raw - non-protein diet a guy can use to build muscle?

Just saying...

Back to my studies,

Peace.

JerseyDevil

You seem to be under the impression that you can just go raw and build "massive" muscle....heck no!!!!

When you go raw your body has a job to do....and that job is to heal and clean you out and nothing else!!!

When you go raw your gonna lose weight, your not gonna be the same, your gonna lose all the retained water, fats, growth hormones/stimulants from cooked foods or cooked meats.....

When you go raw nature takes it's course and it knows nothing about bodybuilding competitions or vanity.....as soon as you stop ingesting materials that are toxic to your body all it knows is that it's got to start healing and cleansing the body....PERIOD!

If your willing to be patient and conciderate of your body and what it needs to dfo and if put the work in, you can build the "Massive" muscles you want but only when the body has completed it's task.

F1

[Fruitarianone]

I'm just searching for the truth. I'm being honest, fair, and open minded about all of this. And if in the process of looking at both sides of this coin - the thread gets closed - so be it. But that should say something.



That's a bit of a stretch. You see this is what I mean. You're posting information without backing any of it up. Sure the consistency of an egg is changed when you cook it. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that the protein inside of it is now "denatured." According to who? You? I'm not coming down on you. I'm really not. But, you're not showing any reference points. If I was a professor and you were writing a paper about this. And you said (above quote), I'd say "Okay, well that's interesting. What sources do you have to back this theory up?" And if you said "Umm...well...I don't have any. It's just my own thought." I'd say well then your entire argument is speculation and you have no evidence to back up you're claim.


F

You see where I'm going with this? Show me an article about this. Send me a link. Show me a study to back this claim up. I don't say Whey protein will make your muscles grow more than eating a bowl of greens. I actually *tried* it. I conducted an experiment (see previous post) and I proved that in 10 days my muscle grew more from injesting Whey protein after I worked out vs. eating a bowl of greens. As for the whole....Horse thing? A horse is a horse....a human being is a human being. If I really wanted to slam your argument I'd say look at Cows. Cows eat the same damn thing and they're fatter than Roseanne. If I really wanted to slam your argument I'd say look at the North American Grey Wolf. They're packed with muscle. And their diet consists of nothing but meat. But, I'm *NOT* arguing an all meat diet. Horses are horses. Cows are cows. Wolves are wolves. And humans are humans. Despite the fact that we're all mammals each animal is built differently...as are humans. So you can't say look at a horse anymore than I can say look at a cow...or a wolf. There are come conclusions you could draw but, you can't base your entire arugment on it.



I would say there is no "proof" because I have yet to find 1 competitive male body builder who is 100&#37; raw.



Anybody who looks to "GNC" or "MuscleTech" or "Champion Nutrition" or <Insert Suppliment company here> for a nutritional guide should be dragged out into the street and shot. Obviously there's an agenda - sell more product. Everybody here has different goals. My goal is to build MASS MUSCLE through going raw. And I'm seeing more and more that it's something that's just not possible. That guy Storm I checked out looked great but, he's *not* a body builder. He's lean. He's muscular. He's cut. Hell...I'm sure he's even a great father (judging by the kid he was holding). But if he did a body building show he wouldn't even rank. Trust me.

I don't need GNC or any other suppliment company to tell me that whey protein makes muscles larger. I tried it myself and surprise surpirse...my muscles grew more with whey than they did with a bowl of raw broccoli. I did it for 10 days. There's the proof.



I have watched Super Size Me. And I watched all of the little extras. And I'm not advocating fast food at all. But I would say look to a lot of body builders and they will tell you (as will I) how crucial it is to have fresh fruits and veggies in your diet for proper nuitrition and for proper mass muscle gain.



It does Fruitarian and my enquiries *are* sincere (at least I *know* they're sincere...how they're percieved by some on this board is another story perhaps)

Thank you Fruitarian for posting your pics. Again, I will say you've got a fantasic body.

If I can steer this thread back to actually learning something...

Fruitarian could you post some of your workout routine (how many sets - how many reps - how often do you change exercise - etc) as well as your cardio routine? I'd really love to see what works for you.

Also what fruits (no veggies at all?) or whatever do you for your 4-6 meals?

Thanks

JerseyDevil

JD

I wasn't sure at first but now I can see your sincere and your probably a good dude....but your coming off like a jerk in your posts on this board...you need to know that a lot of what people here know is from experience too and even though they have no documented/scientific evidence, they still know what they know, just in the same way that you know what you know through trying things out for yourself, the only difference is that with us it's more frustrating because more often than not we can't prove our findings except in my case by posting pics, vids, etc.

As far as the muscle stuff goes, I can now see where your coming from because I used to be a pro sportsman myself so I can understand your need to be able to compete and perform and win.

The problem is that this raw thing is a heck of a process and going raw is a complete body overhaul like nothing your ever likely to go through because it's real nature at work and not some pill that you can stop taking and everything is ok again, there's so much more to it than that, on one hand it's like being a drug addict and quitting every drug your taking....now how do you think you would feel after doing that!!!!....and then try thinking about working out....on the other hand, you lose all the fats, retained water and growth hormones, etc from cooked foods, so your no longer swollen because your body retains the water to dilute the polution in your body, the more cooked, processed stuff you put in your body the more you swell up and when you stop putting toxic foods in your body there's no need to dilute anything and I know that for a fact because I've done the whole bulking thing and other experiments too my friend, that's probably why you got bigger on the whey protien, your body retained water!!!

I'm almost scared to tell you what I do coz that will start a whole new argument.....

I don't need to eat for muscle growth because I'm already eating what my body needs, I'm already eating amino acids from it's natural source.

Currently I'm on oranges juice, I cut them up and suck the juice out, this spring I will probably go on to grapefruits at some point.

My workouts are the basic "bread and butter" bodyweight exercise like push ups, squats, pull ups/chins, etc, I don't change up that often because I enjoy what I do but I'm gonna play around with that at a latter date!

If I can find them I can even post pics of me when I was in shape on cooked foods and I'm bigger and in way better shape now....I know I have them aroound some where.

You can also check out my interview too.

http://www.realgainz.com/Fruitarian

I hope that helped.

F1

[jerseygirl1969]

"That's a bit of a stretch. You see this is what I mean. You're posting information without backing any of it up. Sure the consistency of an egg is changed when you cook it. But, that doesn't necessarily mean that the protein inside of it is now "denatured." According to who? You? I'm not coming down on you. I'm really not. But, you're not showing any reference points. If I was a professor and you were writing a paper about this. And you said (above quote), I'd say "Okay, well that's interesting. What sources do you have to back this theory up?" And if you said "Umm...well...I don't have any. It's just my own thought." I'd say well then your entire argument is speculation and you have no evidence to back up you're claim."

Not a stretch. It's basic knowledge accepted by the scientific community. when you cook protein, it becomes denatured. I've been hearing this since the 8th grade.

[jerseygirl1969]

Did a little google search for you. You'll want to consult this guy: Stephen Arlin, bodybuilder and friend of David Wolfe. He makes protein powders of raw foods for supplementation. Good luck!

[Solace]

http://www.thebestdayever.com/

The Peter Ragnar Interview: “How To Live 20+ Years – Without Aging a Single Day!”

What if you have the power to choose how long you live?
What if that ticking mental time bomb, which EXPLODES and results in aging bodies and debilitating diseases, could be defused? You'd want to know how, wouldn't you?

What if on your 60th birthday you felt better than you did in your 20s and 30s?

What if people stopped recognizing you at age 80 because you were growing younger as they continued to grow older?

Introducing an Exclusive 90-Minute Interview with Ageless Wonder Peter Ragnar where you'll learn:
How, while most people his age are having strokes and heart attacks, Peter Ragnar is INVENTING new exercise equipment and performing SUPER HUMAN feats of strength!


Peter's SECRET for not only stopping the age-clock over the past 40 years... but also becoming STRONGER and more AGILE with each passing decade!


Why we have become so resigned (hopeless, really) to readily accept the "medieval" notions of sickness and death as INEVITABLE - and how by changing our beliefs about aging, we change our immediate experience of aging!


Why most "health experts" die at the same rate as the general population - and why you should only listen to people who demonstrate the very insights they teach.


Peter's recommendations for living longer - and becoming more conscious in our later years.


And so much more!

Peter Ragnar in 1984. Peter Ragnar Today!
(21 years gone by... and the only noticible difference is the length of Peter's beard!)

http://www.thebestdayever.com/images/peter-ragnar-pic.jpg

[rjsmom]

Wow...I have read through the posts...and find this discussion very interesting due to the fact that I have only been raw for about 39 days.
It seems that Fruitarianone is living proof of what the body can do raw.
I am on that same quest to prove it for myself.
My only advice that I can offer is that you really have to do it for yourself. All of the clients that I trained and myself for bodybuilding competitions had to really figure out their own bodies and what worked for them (eg. grams of protein, carbs and fats). So unless you are willing to go through the detox and really work through you won't figure it out. There are no easy answers for what the body requires due to the fact we are all different.

All I can say is that after being on a cooked bodybuilding diet for 5 years (and I thought I was so healthy during this time) I have never felt so good as I have in the last 4 days!!!!! I can't wait to see the results that I know will come.

[rawfigure]

JD

I wasn't sure at first but now I can see your sincere and your probably a good dude....but your coming off like a jerk in your posts on this board...you need to know that a lot of what people here know is from experience too and even though they have no documented/scientific evidence, they still know what they know, just in the same way that you know what you know through trying things out for yourself, the only difference is that with us it's more frustrating because more often than not we can't prove our findings except in my case by posting pics, vids, etc.



JD
I was thinking the same.
You are thinking of competing and asked for advice. Stated you need to add muscle. Well many of us here have done just that.
There are those here with experience in the field, trainers, successful competitors and solid advice to you.
You say we need to prove it to you...well I say try it and then you prove us wrong.
There are so many here who have muscle on a Raw Diet and some like me on a Raw mostly fruit diet. (which I agree is not for everyone)
And the links to others like Storm and Peter R..(he is huge)

BTW the Maillard reaction is very well known in Food Science. (GOOGLE it) It is a chemical reaction between an amino acid and a reducing sugar, usually requiring the addition of heat.

[punkspirit]

http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/3853/uddersmv8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

just like it... had a good laugh:D

btw... the current worldchampion is a vegan... though not raw( but I guess you all know;) )

[JerseyDevil]

Hey where did you get that picture of me!!!

LOL.

:D

Good stuff.

And good posts all around. Particularly Fruitarian + JerseyGirl1969 +Solace

Feeling the knowledge and the love.

Respect,

~JerseyDevil

[i<3veggies]

Well from reading through these posts I really don't think anything anyone has to say is going to please you but I'm gonna go out on a limb and share these with you, I'm not a bodybuilder per se and I'm not the biggest guy in the world but check this out on a diet of just fruits, no nuts, greens or supplements, just a mono fruit diet!

Me!

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/249/ava00710jf.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava00710jf.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/8044/ava00817tl.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava00817tl.jpg)

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/9358/ava01017ps.th.jpg (http://img199.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava01017ps.jpg)

http://img106.imageshack.us/img106/4032/ava01115eb.th.jpg (http://img106.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ava01115eb.jpg)

You can also checkout other vids here.

http://z12.invisionfree.com/FLF/index.php?showtopic=1784

I doubt it but if your enquiries are sincere I hope it helps.

F1


i especially liked the part about doubting my sincerity......

and how nothing is going to please me???

i am into the raw thing, and experimenting and looking for advice....

i am not trying to be rude...but come on....why would i waste time inquiring about a raw diet and trying so hard if i'm insincere???...lol

[Fruitarianone]

i especially liked the part about doubting my sincerity......

and how nothing is going to please me???

i am into the raw thing, and experimenting and looking for advice....

i am not trying to be rude...but come on....why would i waste time inquiring about a raw diet and trying so hard if i'm insincere???...lol

Believe me...plenty people do that on a regular basis, they come on the boards and make it their mission to cause trouble and the way they do that is by asking for help then doubting and rejecting everything....

It happens plenty on raw boards....

[i<3veggies]

apparently....instead of giving facts or showing some pics of raw bodybuilders...

blind faith works for some people...

...because i want facts...

i am not sincere...

hmmm...rings of a cult mentality to me.

i still haven't seen anything that i would consider huge....

i'm offended at your assumption....

[Fruitarianone]

apparently....instead of giving facts or showing some pics of raw bodybuilders...

blind faith works for some people...

...because i want facts...

i am not sincere...

hmmm...rings of a cult mentality to me.

i still haven't seen anything that i would consider huge....

i'm offended at your assumption....

I wish you all the best but this is getting boring now!!!:rolleyes:

If we are not giving you what you want why don't you just go for it yourself...and be the raw bodybuilder that got "massive muscles" and show everybody that it can be done....instead of wasting your time with us blind followers!

What you waiting on?

I'm done....hope it works out for ya....see ya!

F1

[rawfigure]

:cool:
I wish you all the best but this is getting boring now!!!:rolleyes:

If we are not giving you what you want why don't you just go for it yourself...and be the raw bodybuilder that got "massive muscles" and show everybody that it can be done....instead of wasting your time with us blind followers!

What you waiting on?

I'm done....hope it works out for ya....see ya!

F1


Me too !!! I am with Fruitone...This is that last visit to this post. My time would be better spent in the gym as would all those who dis believe.....
I am going to go have some frozen banana ice cream then go to bed !!

[i<3veggies]

fruitone...lol

[Juicyfruit]

Here are some excellent links:

Fruit contains all required protein:

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/protein.htm

Cooking damages healthy protein:

http://www.youngerthanyourage.com/13/cooking.htm

Water retention due to cooked protein:

http://www.freeacnebook.com/Part-1.htm

[SchoolOfRAWk]

The #1 book I'm told to get for this issue specifically is called THE THRIVE DIET. It is new. It is every raw muscleperson and extreme athlete's BIBLE.

[SchoolOfRAWk]

I'm here to learn and me posting I ate grilled chicken and felt fine afterwards is my contribution. Everyone was saying that if you eat meat you're gonna feel like shit. Well I eat it and I felt fine. Perhaps you may not agree with it but, that's your perogative. But, I'm being honest. There's a flip side to that coin of eating meat and feeling fine. That's all I'm saying. And if I'm going to post on this thing I'm going to be honest.

Even if you don't feel like the death that you just consumed after, it is still causing cancer and disease in your body. You won't get it right away, but you will get it.

Read The China Study, too. And Fit For Life. Nobody said protein didn't build muscle - at least I wouldn't argue that. However, it isnt' what you eat, it's what you digest, and protein is only made from amino acids. That is what it is. Fruits and veggies contain many of them and are much more BIOAVAILABLE.

[aubrey]

You might want to try something called The Ultimate Meal. Its a protein powder made from 100% raw plants, herbs and grains. When my partner eats raw with me, he worries about how to replace his protein shakes. This has worked well for us. It doesn't taste too good, but then what protein shake does?

[Bredelly]

Perhaps I can offer a different perspective on this. No knowledge here, just hypothesizing.

If huge quantities of protein are necessary for bodybuilding, whey isn't everyone who gets 150-200 grams of protein a day a hulking monster? Think about this. Let's say you need 100 grams of protein a day. Or 150. Then you consume 50 over that.

So you have:
50 grams protein
Assume each lb of muscle is 60% water, a conservative estimate.
For a month, you would have 50x30 grams of protein extra available for muscle building.
50x30=1500
divide by 454 to get lbs : 1lb = 454 grams
1500/454= 3.3
3.3/(40%) to get lbs muscle when water is included
3.3/0.4=8.25
So theoretically if you consume 50 extra grams of protein a day you should gain 8.25 lbs a month. In a year you should gain about 99lbs. Who gains 99 lbs a year? So even if you can only use 25 of those 50 extra grams you should still gain 50lbs of pure muscle. Very rarely does anyone gain that much. Even if they do there's a lot of fat that contributes to that 50 lbs as well. So what's going on? It seems like a lot of this protein is going to waste. Is it not being used? Is it needed for other things? Is most of it unnecessary? Gains of 10-20 lbs are more common and realistic in a year and it would only take an extra 5-10 grams of fully utilized protein to accomplish that based on my method of estimating above.

So it seems the real questions revolve around what is your protein requirement for maintenance and normal repair and how much of what you consume can you utilize, which must obviously depend of the protein source itself as well as you digestive strength. If you can figure out those things you can figure out if you can be a raw bodybuilder.

[Boo Radley]

Male bodybuilders who are raw vegans:

Shannon, a black American man who was sick most of his life due to bad diet. He became a raw vegan, and look what happened to him (6'3", 215 lbs., 8&#37; body fat):

http://www.thegardendiet.com/shannon.html

Storm's blog:
http://www.rawveganforever.com


Some pictures of Storm:
http://www.thegardendiet.com/storm.html


I'm not sure if this is what you guys are looking for or not, but...

[mikeshafer]

For those who are interested to see what happens when someone combines the raw vegan diet with a "300" workout routine, stay tuned. I am restarting my raw vegan once I move to California in two weeks, and as soon as the initial detox wears off (1-2 months), I am going to start into the 300 workout routine (from the movie 300). My goal is to look built and cut, but not necessarily HUGE. I just want to be able to bench my own weight and have a BF&#37; of between 6-7%. And I will document this (every day actually with my camera) so others can see how I change. :)

[SchoolOfRAWk]

Mike, what is the 300 routine? Is there a link? FORGIVE me if you've listed it already.

Also, though I'd have to point out:
As for the whole....Horse thing? A horse is a horse....a human being is a human being. If I really wanted to slam your argument I'd say look at Cows. Cows eat the same damn thing and they're fatter than Roseanne.
Cows aren't fat! They are not fat at all. They are just large! And Roseanne may be fat but I think a large woman who speaks up confidently is way sexier than a waif with no voice. Just my 2 cents! :-)

[Boo Radley]

I'm a country girl, and I must agree with SchoolOfRAWk...cows are not fat. They are indeed just large.


Be well.

[durianrider]

im making a raw dvd....and am looking for a die hard meat eater to star in it..

i can pay you money if you want. ie pay you to eat food that you think is natural. just like someone paying me to eat a peach off the tree..

you up for it?

ok here is the scene...
you do 20 sets of bench press so your wiped out..then look into the camera and talk about how you at 100calories of raw plant food and sidestepped fruit eating and got 'primal insticnts' to eat meat etc.

then we let a live chicken on the scene. you run from camera and pounce on the chicken. and carry it back to your bench press and just start gobbling chicken breast...like a true meat eater would..ie bite straight into the animal with out being a pussy and having to get someone else kill it, blood it and cook it and then wash your hands after cos they smell..

so you wanna star in my raw dvd?
i didnt think so..
heck i travel the world and cant find anyone whom wants to star in durian riders dvd!
lots of talkers, but no walkers...

we cant convince anyone whom doesnt want to be convinced. do what works for you champ!

[LightLover]

I'm a country girl, and I must agree with SchoolOfRAWk...cows are not fat. They are indeed just large.


Be well.

I would like to compare 100% grass feed cows, with cows also been fed on mais etc...

I Bet the first ones will be much leaner, less fat and more muscles.
LL

[LightLover]

Durianrider, maybe you can find someone if you replace the raw meat with raw herring?

LL

[mikeshafer]

SchoolOfRAWk: the 300 routine is a final test given to the performers in the movie 300 to see if they were able to do 300 reps in a specific amount of time. From this URL:

http://www.webmd.com/fitness-exercise/features/the-300-workout-can-you-handle-it

The 300 Workout
The workout gets its name from the total number of repetitions. But those 300 reps weren't done daily, as some media accounts report, Twight says. Rather, the 300 workout was the finale of months of training, a kind of graduation test, after actors had weight lifted and trained with tools such as medicine balls and Kettlebells (cast iron weights with handles).

It's daunting, and includes these weight-training moves:

25 pull-ups
50 deadlifts at 135 pounds
50 push-ups
50 box jumps with a 24-inch box
50 "floor wipers" (a core and shoulders exercise at 135 pounds)
50 "clean and press" at 36 pounds (a weight-lifting exercise)
25 more pull-ups -- for a total of 300 reps

There's no rest between movements and the score is based on total time, Twight says.

...

The Results
At the end of the training, about half of those who trained took the 300 test, Twight says. Andrew Pleavin, who plays Daxos, leader of the Arcadians, was the only actor to take it. He finished in 18 minutes and 11 seconds.

[durianrider]

well i thought that would be easier for em, but still cant find anyone that would have lunch at goldfish tank at the local pet store..or pushing pelicans out of the way and diving on herring shoals at the local foreshore

[PureEnergyLLC]

Were you able to get the input yu were looking for? I am new to the Raw World & did some amateur BB figure shows in 2007. My last show was Nov. 2007. I am considering doing a show again in Nov. 2009, but as a Raw girl! I have always made sure to eat lots of protein (including whey during my BB show year). But, what I've been reading lately makes sense. The meats I was eating were cooked to death (what a pun, huh?), so if we're not utilizing much of the cooked protein, I guess the lower amount os assimilated protein from raw plant life is still better. I am up for a challenge to see how I can prep for a show. How did you make out? Are you still raw? How did your show(s) go?

[SekhemNefer]

Also, HEMP and Avocados will out do any other protein on the planet

And avocados help you lose weight by speeding up the metabolism so you can burn fat.

[Veronica01]

How can eating fat speed up your metabolism? If that were true, people eating high fat raw diets would be the slimmest and most toned, not the people eating high fruit and greens. Everyone knows the more fat you eat on SAD the fatter you will be. Raw fat is not the same, but it is still fat. The body can only metabolize so much and it takes atleast 6-8 hours (depending on your metabolism) to process the fat and get it out of your blood stream. Eating Fat takes a lot of energy to process and will likely make you more tired and want to rest, not work out.

Also think about it, have you ever heard of another mammal who lives on a high fat diet?

[Johnny B]

I saw my biggest body fat reductions before I went raw, when I started eating primal and dropped all grains from the diet and added more natural fats. Playing with the whole carbs drive insulin which drives fat storage model.

[Celeryhead]

How can eating fat speed up your metabolism? If that were true, people eating high fat raw diets would be the slimmest and most toned, not the people eating high fruit and greens. Everyone knows the more fat you eat on SAD the fatter you will be. Raw fat is not the same, but it is still fat. The body can only metabolize so much and it takes atleast 6-8 hours (depending on your metabolism) to process the fat and get it out of your blood stream. Eating Fat takes a lot of energy to process and will likely make you more tired and want to rest, not work out.


Veronica, I think the theory is that, not all fats being the same (raw versus cooked/one kind of raw fat versus another), the components in some fats (e.g., the medium chain fatty acids in raw coconut oil) may have the effect of increasing the metabolic rate, at least in some people. The law of diminishing returns would likely apply, though, such that, in case of coconut oil, you would only take a relatively small amount to get the metabolic benefit which would have to outstrip the caloric content of the coconut oil and energy required to process it. The corollary of this is that taking more than the minimal optimal amount would not increase the metabolic rate any further, and that any additional amount would negate the benefit (in terms of increasing the metabolic rate) and, as you say, end up making you fatter.

That said, whether coconut oil or other fats in minimal amounts can actually increase metabolic rates (and aid weight loss), I can’t say for sure.