View Full Version : smoked salomon
03-03-2007, 10:52 PM
i have a medical condition which only allows me to eat raw food, is cold smoked salomon considered raw food?
03-04-2007, 12:13 AM
Hello! Just to remind you, this is a raw food VEGAN board, which means no meat, fish, egg or dairy. I think the best thing for you to do is to discuss this matter with the very person that gave you this medical diagnose, that should clear things up for you.
03-04-2007, 01:09 AM
Here we are talking about "plant" based vegan food that has no association with an animal. Maybe you can share your health challenge in another thread you start or even search for that condition in our search bar to see how others are caring for that condition. You may be amazed at what you find. Nothing is to secretive here. People are kind and loving so welcome to the family.
Based on Alissa's book, she advocates eating raw, but I have not found information about why raw fish is not part of the diet, only that it is not part of it. I am open to including this or not in my life, but I was just hoping that others on the board perhaps have some sort of information about the pros/cons and/or what reason it would have to be off of the list of things that are okay to eat.
03-08-2007, 09:41 AM
Fish is a type of meat, and Alissa's book is about a raw vegan diet which is why you wouldn't find information about fish, specifically.
03-08-2007, 09:43 AM
People can get hepatitis A, worms, and other pathogens from eating raw fish or shellfish.
The hepatitis A virus can be found in raw shellfish, but it is not common in other seafood. Hepatitis A, unlike types B and C, does not cause long-term or chronic illness. The liver becomes inflamed, but will heal completely in most people without permanent damage, and the infected individual will then have immunity for life. Symptoms of hepatitis A can include:
loss of appetite
jaundice (yellow skin)
no symptom at all
Hepatitis A's incubation period (the time it takes from eating the food until beginning to exhibit symptoms) ranges from 15 to 50 days, with an average of about 4 weeks. Infected individuals can be sick for up to 6 months. You can take a blood test to see if you've already been exposed to hepatitis A, and you can also receive a vaccine, which sounds like a good idea in your case. If you're a Columbia student, call Primary Care Medical Services at x4-2284 for an appointment, or see your own health care provider for either the antibody test or vaccine. Hepatitis A is killed by heat, so it is not a concern for those enjoying cooked shellfish dishes.
Worms (and worm eggs) can be a concern when consuming raw fish. Worms are killed when the fish is cooked or completely frozen, but can be passed on in the raw state. This includes not just sashimi or sushi, but also some other popular dishes, such as partially raw seared fish fillets and ceviche — raw fish marinated in lime or other citrus juice. Most worms will pass through the digestive system without causing any problems, but two can cause infections: roundworm larvae and a type of tapeworm species, diphyllobothrium. Infection by either of these two parasites can result in abdominal discomfort, diarrhea, fatigue, and feelings of weakness in the arms and legs. Though the risk is low, it can be further reduced by purchasing fish from reputable stores and also eating at reputable restaurants. Trained sushi chefs have learned how to identify worms or worm eggs in fish, and reputable packing houses use a process called candling (quite simple: holding the fish to light) to check for worms in the fillets.
Raw shellfish, such as oysters on the half shell, and raw fish pose two more possible threats: vibrio bacteria and the Norwalk virus. Vibrio bacteria, including Vibrio vulnificus and Vibrio parahaemolyticus, can be killed by cooking. Some popular myths claim that hot sauce, alcohol, or citric acid in the form of citrus juice can kill bacteria and viruses in shellfish, but this isn't true. The presence of vibrio does not alter the appearance, smell, and taste of seafood in any way. Symptoms of vibrio infection, which can be transmitted through contact of an open wound with infected seawater, as well as by consuming raw fish and shellfish, include abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea. Infected individuals can also experience skin lesions filled with fluid. The infection is treated with antibiotics. Vibrio is especially dangerous for immunocompromised people, who could develop toxic shock and die.
The Norwalk virus, similar to vibrio, causes nausea, diarrhea, and abdominal discomfort. Infected individuals may also experience fever and headaches, but the infection will pass on its own and leave no long-term negative health effects.
Raw shellfish can also contain the bacteria that cause cholera and gastroenteritis, and the toxin that causes paralytic shellfish poisoning (PSP). Both cholera and gastroenteritis result in vomiting and diarrhea, and the treatment for either focuses on rehydration to replenish the fluids lost. Antibiotics may also be prescribed in the case of cholera. PSP can cause numbness in the mouth and muscular paralysis; it can, in some cases, lead to death. There is no treatment to cure PSP, only support for the patient. PSP is also a small risk in cooked shellfish, as heat does not kill the responsible toxin. The U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) ensures that the risk for PSP is miniscule by monitoring fishing waters, as mentioned above, and the presence of the toxin in a harvesting area will lead to a discontinuation of that area's approval and the destruction of any shellfish already harvested. Almost all of the very small number of cases in the United States is the result of groups harvesting their own shellfish from waters that had already been determined to be unsafe. These three illnesses, rare in the U.S., are more common in other areas of the world, especially in developing countries.
For all of the above reasons, people with the following conditions need to abstain completely from eating raw fish or shellfish:
inflammatory bowel disease
abnormal iron metabolism
other autoimmune disorders
Yes, fish is specifically mentioned in her book, but there is no information about why it should be eliminated. Just like coffee is mentioned, but she lists reasons why she finds that it is not an appropriate part of the diet.
There is not one mention in the entire book of a focus of this diet being a raw, vegan diet. It focuses on raw food. Based on the stuff she has eliminated, the end product indeed matches the vegan lifestyle, but it is not clearly expressed anywhere that that is the aim or goal.
I realize that many people on the board have to defend this lifestyle to people regularly. I would just like to remind you that my interests are in my health, not in causing a problem, so there's not need to be curt.
I also realize that nearly every food on this earth would have some health risk associated with it. E coli with lettuce... I'm not going to avoid lettuce in my diet.
I was just hoping that someone out there had an idea why certain foods may not be included, outside of throwing them into the category "not vegan."
03-08-2007, 10:29 AM
Lots of fish are now farmed as opposed to wild so are thought to be subject to the same treatment as other farmed animals such as antibiotics. Also, fish can carry high levels of mercury becasue they eat sea creatures that have eaten mercury contaminated food, which in term have eated mercury contaminated food so fish can get a build up of it.
Sharon in Colorado
03-08-2007, 10:31 AM
I know this is a vegan board, but for clarification the cold smoked stuff is also referred to as lox and is the slippery type while the hot smoked is the flakey type.
Either way there is probably denaturing in the process and not optimal.
03-08-2007, 10:32 AM
Living on Live Foods....
smoked fish is kinda dead
Thanks. Yeah, great point about fish obviously being dead. :o This is the sort of information I was looking for, and about mercury. I'm just not a big fan of not eating something simply because it's in one category or another. Thanks for the input.
03-08-2007, 10:56 AM
Many people here don't eat animal products simply for ethical reasons.
Many people here don't eat animal products for health reasons - mainly because meat products are not easily digested, therefore causing health issues to arise from just sitting and rotting within the body. Also, it has been said that animal protein (dairy or meat-based) leeches from our bones.
For everything, there is always going to be someone for it who can "prove" their case and someone against it who can "prove" their case. There are many raw fooders who eat raw meat and will tell you they are healthier because of it just as there are many raw fooders who do NOT eat raw meat and they, too, will tell you they are healthier because of it. Both sides can and will give you very good reasons why they do or don't consume animal products (raw or otherwise).
All-in-all, you have do what YOU feel is right/best for YOU...if you feel good eating fish and have none of the ill-effects that others experience, then it is certainly well within your rights to do so and we'll still be right here to support you in the raw plant-based portion of your dietary choice.
However, the bottom line is that this is a raw vegan/vegetarian support forum...the list owner has made it clear that because of this fact, the discussion of consuming animal products is not advocated here. Sure, we can tell you why it's bad to eat meat but there are some people here who DO eat it and they just do so without necessarily disclosing it here on this forum. But when posts such as this one come up, then they tend to step in and acknowledge the fact that they eat it or don't find anything wrong with it and then rather than the discussion going in the direction of answering the question as to why it is NOT good to eat these things, it becomes a debated issue between those who do and those who don't.
We just recently had a discussion here about raw milk and raw cheese - and because it began going in that direction, Alissa requested of me to remove certain posts and lock the thread up so it could be read, but no longer responded to.
It's a vegan/vegetarian forum that is designed for support of those who have decided this lifestyle is for them. You are free to eat meat and we would not judge you for that - we just don't advocate it HERE...out of respect to the rules and the wishes of the forum owner...that's all.
There are websites out there on the 'net and some books written (Carol Alt's comes to mind) that advocate raw meat (and other animal) products if you wish to explore those.
You may also wish to check into reading the book "The China Study" - I've not read it yet, only seen recommendations for it but I've heard that it covers studies that show why we should not eat animal products.
Points all well taken, Rawkinlocs!
I appreciate your rational discussion, and in any case, I think this has cleared it up for me. I don't think that raw fish is going to be an option at this point. That said, I can't wait to try the nori rolls in the book! In my times where I have alternated between vegetarian and not, there was always a good nori roll... but never with cauliflower. :)
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