Girls, help me on this one

[BrianC]

I did raw for about 10 days, then added some seafood and rice to some meals for about a week, and 3 days ago started the Master Cleanse. In case you don't know of it, it is an extended fast (min 10 days) consuming only water and a mixture of water, lemon juice, maple syrup, and cayenne. Highly rated for detox.

I am doing this with 2 of my roommates, and my girlfriend and my roommate's girlfriend are very upset. They think we're taking it too far, that we're obsessed, etc. They also mention that they think during the day "I'm eating a burger and Coke and my boyfriend is drinking lemon juice," with the connotation that they're overeating. I try to explain that I'm not doing this to lose weight but they think we're obsessed with our weight and body image, and that is why we are "starving ourselves" and "becoming anorexic." When I try to refute that, I am told "see you have a problem because you're in denial."

I'm not asking for ways to convince them, convert them, or placate them. I am just wondering if this is a reflection of their own problems and insecurities about food. I know what I am doing isn't mainstream, but it also isn't unheard of or even obscure. But it is difficult to explain to them that I am not trying to lose weight, and I think it is because girls associate food with weight/body image and they are insecure about it.

What do you all think? Thanks for the input.

[Nimmanu]

You know, this is not just their own problem- though it is that.

It is also a cultural thing.

Let me tell you a story as an example of cultural paradigms, and how they effect us. I just had a beautiful baby girl. While I was pregnant with her, I would eat salads, sandwhiches with ezekiel bread, things like that. Small, frequent meals of very "healthy" foods (I thought at the time- healthy by SAD standards, for sure).

At work, I would constantly hear, "Have some Ice Cream, you won't get to after you have the baby- you'll have to diet!" Or I would hear, "You are not eating enough, you're eating for two, you know!" Things of that nature.

Now, after all that "extreme" and "unnatural" pregnancy eating... I am the only one of the 7 women who is back to pre-pregnancy weight and appearance. My belly is already flat and sleek again, and Kira is only 3.5 months old.

Now, they all ask me why I'm "still" dieting. :mad: I am not dieting, this is how I LIVE!

So... even when the health of my BABY was at risk, people couldn't understand the concept of me having a good, healthy dietary lifestyle!

If they can't understand why people "deprive" their child by eating healthily, they're sure not going to understand the lunacy of someone actually being healthy for THEMSELVES.

It is, quite literally, something that just doesn't happen in our society. Seriously.

I mean, look at these girls... they KNOW, 100%, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that eating what they are is horrible for them. They KNOW IT. You know they know it, I know they know it, and they know they know it.

So, in their discomfort, they try to make what YOU are doing sound extreme and unhealthy.

I would, personally (because I'm a pretty blunt person), tell them next time, "I tell you what. If you don't talk about my dietary habits, I won't talk about yours, okay?"

Because as others have said here pretty often... which is more extreme, eating some veggies and nuts, or eating chemical soup with a little bit of food added to it?

They are indoctrinated by our society. They are inundated with advertisements, inundated with social conditioning every minute of every day. It never ceases or slows down. It is not only about their personal insecurities, of which they almost certainly have a huge number of socially conditioned insecurities... it is about social stigma.

There is social stigma against healthy eating, and social stigma against doing good things for yourself. It's really that simple.

[dreamrawalwz]

I couldn't have said it any better myself Nimmanu

[BrianC]

You're right, and I didn't want to make my post too long so I cut out much of the conversation. However, I tried to point out that girls are made to think, "count calories, count pounds, count inches," etc., and that's why everyone is so afraid of weight but at the same time is obsessed with food. There's no reason why 8 year old girls should be thinking they should lose weight - but it happens. I actually don't talk about her eating habits at all, and I complement her when she makes an effort to eat better. I also try to only talk about my habits when asked - otherwise I can tend to lecture.

Another point I made is that while 2 of the 3 of us are very health conscious - the other guy doing it has been on the buffalo wings, beer, and marlboro diet. Certainly not an anorexic - and on top of that, once our preset 10 day limit is over, we can go back to "normalcy."

Thanks for the replies, I just find this very frustrating that this culture prevents people from having an open mind. She's very religious and "Jesus did it" didn't even work! lol

[Svadhyaya]

My whole family (not my husband, thank God) thinks I'm insane. I am not even 100% raw, and have never felt ill enough to fast, aside from during short periods of viral illness. I eat plenty, am very healthy and not underweight or anything. Still lots of people think I've gone off the deep end with my eating habits, and they tell me so in between bites of sausage biscuits and coke.

I do think that some people take things too far. I believe that some people destroy their good health on the pursuit of perfect health. People do get addicted to giving up things (like food.) Some people confuse their sick and broken down health with detox and believe if they just restrict more and more that a "healing breakthrough" is coming when, in actuality, they are simply starving themselves to death. Every choice we make should make us better in the long-term, not just give us the starvation-induced euphoria that can be mistaken for good health.

(Now that I've given you a motherly warning to be careful) I would point out to your girl that you are aware that fasting is not an effective weight loss tool in the long term, and explain the non-weight related reasons why you are doing the Master Cleanse. Then ask her to please back off and respect your decisions to care for your own body as you see fit. Tell her it would be very easy to turn the tables and criticize her for destroying her body and threatening her future health by eating burgers, but you choose to respect her freedom of choice. Ask her to give you the same courtesy.

[tvillemom]

Brian, good luck. I have to agree TOTALLY with the other posts! When I am fasting, I have to remind myself constantly why I'm doing it. NOT FOR WEIGHT LOSS OR TO GET SMALLER, BUT TO DETOX!!
I am 35 yrs. old, and as a teenager (from ages 11-18) I was very closely anorexic. I would eat 1 small (maybe even 1/2) a meal a day! I believe it stunted my growth (I'm only 5'1"), but I still have issues with poor body image. It is only going RAW that I am starting to appreciate my body at the size I am NOW, and not constantly worrying over loosing the last 15 lbs.
Good luck with "the girls", I think when your fast is over, and they see you eating again, they will see your not going to "starve yourself" forever. Just keep reminding her that you are doing this to detox bad stuff from your body.
Good luck.
Wendi

[Nimmanu]

I absolutely was not accusing you of saying anything to her about what she eats.

I was saying, you SHOULD say to her, "If you don't talk about the way that I eat, I won't talk about the way that you eat."

Kind of saying, "stop pestering me, unless you want me to pester you in return."

What she's doing is RUDE, pure and simple. She is being snarky, nasty, and cruel to you, whether you recognize it or not. You need to set a boundary. A boundary is, "If you do not choose to stop your nasty behavior, there will be consequences."

Or... If you do not stop being a jerk to me about my HEALTHY eating, I will tell you what I honestly think of your UNhealthy eating. So if you don't want to hear that, stop being nasty to me about my eating.

This is not nastiness, this is setting a healthy relationship boundary. She may NOT be a nasty jerk to you.

I am not surprised that you are bending over backwards to be kind to her. She's doing her best to make you feel guilty because SHE feels guilty. That is, very simply, not acceptable. No ifs, ands, or buts. It is not acceptable. She can eat how she wishes. But if she doesn't give you that same courtesy, she loses the consideration that she is removing from you. That's what boundaries ARE. They are simple statements that "this behavior will have this result. if you don't like the result, don't do the behavior."

If she could be polite and considerate without boundaries, you wouldn't need to set it. But she obviously cannot, therefor, SHE has pressured you into setting a boundary. It is always our choice whether we allow someone else to be polite to us, when they are trying... or not.

If you open the door for me, for example, and I harass you for it rather than saying "thank you," I have now disallowed your polite gesture. When next time, you do not open the door for me, I have no one to blame but myself.

The problem here is relationship boundaries, and her need to control you in order to feel better about her own poor choices. You need to tell her, honestly, that you will NOT accept her attempts to control your eating through guilt trips and stimatization.

For your relationship to thrive, you MUST set the boundary and STICK TO IT. Food is a symptom of a LOT of deeper issues here.

1. She feels a need to control you- her mockery is manipulation
2. She feels guilty because she is not caring for herself
3. You feel like you do not deserve to set boundaries in your relationship
4. You are angry that she is trying to manipulate you, yet you care more about not hurting her in the short term, because you are unaware of the horrible long-term effect of her behavior will be to your relationship
5. There is a tremendous discrepency between how you feel about taking care of yourself, and how she feels about taking care of herself (you are "unevenly yoked")
6. She resents you caring for yourself, when she is unable to care for her self

Really, I could carry on, but at the end of the day... this is merely a symptom of a much larger and far-reaching issue. She has security issues that go far, far deeper than just her appearance. She is passive aggressively trying to manipulate you, and not for your own good- but it helps her feel better about it if she tells herself that it IS for your own good.

You really might want to sit down and genuinely take a good, honest, long look at your relationship. Then you might want to sit down with her and have a long heart-to-heart about exactly how you feel about her attempts to manipulate you (even if it's "only" in your eating habits- but I bet it's not).

Sorry to go seemingly off-topic here.

You're right, and I didn't want to make my post too long so I cut out much of the conversation. However, I tried to point out that girls are made to think, "count calories, count pounds, count inches," etc., and that's why everyone is so afraid of weight but at the same time is obsessed with food. There's no reason why 8 year old girls should be thinking they should lose weight - but it happens. I actually don't talk about her eating habits at all, and I complement her when she makes an effort to eat better. I also try to only talk about my habits when asked - otherwise I can tend to lecture.

Another point I made is that while 2 of the 3 of us are very health conscious - the other guy doing it has been on the buffalo wings, beer, and marlboro diet. Certainly not an anorexic - and on top of that, once our preset 10 day limit is over, we can go back to "normalcy."

Thanks for the replies, I just find this very frustrating that this culture prevents people from having an open mind. She's very religious and "Jesus did it" didn't even work! lol

[mongomango]

I don't necessarily think that people "know" what they do is unhealthy. Sure, hitting Micky D's is a no-no, everyone knows that. But there are millions of people who absolutely believe that you cannot be healthy without meat, that you cannot be healthy without cooked foods. They are brainwashed, yes..but they're not always insecure or afraid of anything and I often see people painted with such a broad brush who simply just believe that what we do is not healthy and is in fact detrimental to health.

Your girlfriend may be legitimately worried about you. She may think that this sort of thing is harmful to you. Doctors certainly do. Not the fast per se, but many disparage the raw lifestyle. Sure, there's the psychological ramifications going on too, ala the burger and coke/lemon juice comparison, but the odds are that she truly thinks you're harming yourself in some way.

Have you educated her regarding diet? Sat her down and had her read things about what you're doing? Have you shown her websites that detail raw diet success stories where people have cleansed their body and healed all manner of illnesses?

[Svadhyaya]

I'm not convinced that she's trying to be manipulative or controlling. It is very possible that she's just concerned and really does think that her sweetheart has a problem. My mom genuinely, wholeheartedly believes that vegetarianism in any form is unhealthy. It doesn't matter what I say or what evidence I provide, she sides with the status quo. She believes hamburgers are good for you. She isn't trying to be manipulative, she's just concerned about me. Ignorant and annoying, but concerned.

I think a heart to heart talk is in order, but I would begin by assuming that she's concerned about you and not trying to be nasty. You catch more flies with honey than with vinegar. If honey doesn't work, the vinegar may be necessary, but assuming someone is being ugly isn't very productive. Set your boundaries, but be gentle with her, especially if you perceive that she really cares about you and isn't just being hateful or selfish.

Also, talk to her alone....if the two girls are fueling each other's fire, it may be harder to get your girl to listen with an open mind when the other is around.

[Nimmanu]

"But I am manipulating you and making nasty comments about your dietary choices on an ongoing basis because I love you!" is still "I am manipulating you and making nasty comments."

The "for your own good" doesn't suddenly make it an appropriate thing to do. And I hate to say this, but in our society, for some reason, women really have this tendency to believe otherwise. That guilt tripping is okay, as long as it's "with good intentions," or that trying to change another person is okay if it's "for their own good."

You can certainly voice your own concern, but contrary to popular mythos, you are not responsible for anyone's health but your own, and your kids'- but even that only to a reasonable extent.

Manipulation is manipulation. The things she are doing are manipulation. Manipulation is a form of controlling.

None of which is acceptable.

[JGex]

Brian,

I have no idea how serious your relationship is , but if you plan to continue along a raw and healthy path, you may want to do some serious soul searching on what you need in a companion. It really sounds like you are very open-minded and wanting to take your learning about health to a higher level.... will that be possible?

I'm certainly not saying that you should end your relationship - obviously you have something that brought you together in the first place - but finding out now if your partner is open to discussing things that are important to you might save you down the road.

Respect for the other person is like #1 in a relationship. That includes respect for their decisions, choices, diet, etc. And the respect has to be mutual.

I keep reading on this board and others about this very same situation between couples. I am so very thankful that my SO is walking this path with me. I very much realize how difficult it would be if he was showing me nothing but negativity in regards to going raw. I think I'll go give him a hug.....

[Sharon in Colorado]

It is mainly ignorance, and the thought that anything doctors and the mainstream media, the dairy and meat industry say is right. And because nearly everyone is doing it. When you grow up around people who eat junk food all the time, you believe anything other than that way is abnormal.

Case in point, my side of the family eats more whole, natural and home made although cooked foods.

When they eat out, they go to normal sit-down restaurants and order vegetarian (sometimes), chicken, fish, etc. They never go to fast food joints. They eat a healthier version of the SAD diet.

My husbands side of the family eats a ton of prepared foods.

One of his brothers goes out to eat fast food, burgers, junk like that - and considers them "meals". Many times they will get fast food or the like to bring home to their families as a "meal".

So when I changed my diet to a vegetarian and raw way of eating, guess who's side of the family thought I was "weird"?

It reminds me of a KFC commercial I recently saw where the son's friend is begging his mother over the telephone to let him stay for dinner, because they are all having a dinner all "together" (never mind that meal was made of fried, processed high fat food)!

This commercial was saying that it's perfectly normal and correct to get a bucket of greasy cholesterol and fat laden animal food with high-fat cooked and processed sides and condiments because everyone is "eating together".

So, it really depends on who you are dealing with. It sounds like your friend(s) who's live's center around fast, processed and unhealthy foods as their reality of a meal cannot fathom that you might be cleansing or eating fresh foods.

Many folks like that cannot even understand having a meal of fresh foods, they think that the lettuce leaf and tomato slice on their burgers are "seasoning", and much of the time they remove it (if it is even lucky enough to make it on the burger).

Now, if you were to wrangle up some nice veggie friends who have a lot more awareness of things that go into their bodies, they'd be totally on the bandwagon with you, cheering on your success, or if not, they'd be wanting more information on what you are doing, so they could learn all about it.

[Svadhyaya]

Maybe I'm one of those women who "believe otherwise" that Nimmanu mentioned, but I think intentions make all the difference in the world. I have excellent boundaries set in my relationships, but I do choose to have compassion toward those who care about me...even if they annoy me sometimes with their meddling and/or ignorance. I'm sure my mom doesn't dig my voicing concern over her habits of smoking and eating crap, but occasionally I just can't keep my comments to myself (because I love her and care.) I guess that makes me manipulative, too....

There is a vast difference between a selfish shrew and a concerned but misguided girlfriend, even if some of their behavior overlaps, they are still miles apart, imo. That said, no one should tolerate being hounded on a constant basis, and sometimes you have to lay down some serious ultimatums. This may end up being the case for you, but I hope not. Good luck, Brian! I hope this situation works out and results in deepening your relationship and not estranging you.

[Nimmanu]

I will say one last thing on the role of intent, then I will say no more, because I'm not here to argue about the whole issue.

There is no need for a periodic reminder that you disapprove of someone's actions. This isn't something that you "forget" that someone feels. If this were an effective technique, it wouldn't need to be done over and over again. All it does is wear away at the person's self esteem.

No matter if you do it because you care, or because you don't, it is hurtful, and it is ineffective. This is one of the problems I deal with constantly with people that come to me for help. The continued disapproval of their loved ones is profoundly hurtful, and tends to aggravate the need to hide in addictions.

It can be even worse than the snarky hateful comments of strangers. Because this person supposedly loves you, but yet feels free to hurt your heart with impugnity.

[Svadhyaya]

I do understand your view on this, I just feel differently than you do. To consciously avoid any subject entirely, to me, signifies a relationship that is afraid of discussing issues where the parties opinions differ. Not a good sign of relationship strength. The key is for both parties to be kind, respectful, refrain from hounding or pushing, and back off when asked. Then there will no harmed self-esteem or manipulation, just honest dialog. Unfortunately, many people can't accomplish this balance without anger or hurt feelings, but in a healthy relationship it should be okay to disagree without having to avoid a subject entirely.

Agree to disagree? :)

[juliebove]

A raw food diet is one thing and a Master Cleanse is another. I am not one who is supportive of it. I have digestion problems and at the worst I am supposed to follow a diet that is not as restrictive as the Master Cleanse and it does warn not to follow it for more than three days because I will be malnourished if I do!

I don't feel that I have body issues. I'm overweight at the moment. I have a ton of medical problems, many of which contributed to my being overweight. This I know. When I was younger I was severely underweight. No cause for that was found at the time. Now I know I have food allergies and while these seemed to have caused excess weight as an adult they may well have caused me to be underweight as a child. Guess I'll never know for sure. I just know I've seen both ends of the spectrum.

As a child, I hated being underweight. Yes, I did have body issues. I hated the nasty comments people made about me. Telling me I needed to eat more. I used to stuff myself with food and sit around trying not to move so as not to expend any extra calories. Try as I might I could never gain any weight. Now I just have to look at food and I gain. And I can tell you as a fat person, people are a lot nicer to you than when you're very much underweight. I don't recall anyone making cracks about my weight as a fat person aside from my husband and one rude little boy. And at the time the boy made the comment I wasn't even as overweight as I am now. Only about 10 pounds over my ideal weight so the comment of, "Oooh mama! Look at the fat lady!" didn't hurt me too terribly much.

I've also had an eating disorder of a transient nature. As a teen and being naturally underweight to start with, I got a bug that caused me not to keep any food down. For weeks I either threw up whatever I ate or it came out the other end with rapid speed. I wound up becoming fearful of all food and I almost died.

So when I hear of someone going without what I would call any real food for 10 days at a time, I do tend to think of that as a form of an eating disorder. And yes, there are people in my life who do such things at times. I can not see them getting any benefit from doing it. If I did, I might think differently. But then the people I refer to are not on a raw diet. They'll do this to clear out all the junk then go back to eating junk again. Makes no sense to me.

I can see people struggling to find some sort of balance in their life. I find myself doing this at times. Perhaps a Master Cleanse falls into this category. I can see it being used for specific things. For instance if you learn of food allergies and want to ge the allergens cleaned out of your system faster. In that case it might be worth it. Or it might not. Hard to say. At any rate, not something I could ever see myself doing. But when someone I know is doing this sort of thing I do not see it as a reflection on me in any way shape or form. That just makes no sense.

It could also be that you are at a point in your life where you don't need a mate. I went through about a year of my life where I felt I needed to work on myself and myself alone and minimize my relationships with others until I got things all sorted out. It was just something I needed to do.

[darkchild]

Having done the Master cleanse numerous times (10 days + each time), I have to say that I didn't experience any signs or symptoms of being malnourished. If anything, I felt healthier. Yes, it is considered extreme behavior by most people, but I consider eating the way most people eat (SAD) very extreme behavior. So, I guess it depends on how you look at it. I have been told by an M.D. that most people (adults) could fast for a month, and we are talking about a water fast, and not suffer any malnourishment. It amazes me that someone could pour chemicals, pesticides, saturated fat, etc. into their bodies and then say that someone who is consuming healthy foods is unbalanced in their thinking! I say do what you know is right for you and don't worry about what other people say about it.


Dawn

[luckitri]

I think that going raw is going to become mainstream in the near future.

[trinity082482]

I hope you guys don't break up over this. Maybe you can show your girl friend a raw food book so she can get to understand a bit more about your life style. :D

[BrianC]

Wow...didn't expect this much attention! We pretty much worked it out, she didn't realize how harsh she sounded - and actually meant it as concern. My roommate - not so lucky. She invited him to dinner with friends tonight and he said maybe he will come and "smell the food" because that's what some guy on a master cleanse forum said he does. She hung up on him! lol...

Anyway as far as myself, the cleanse is going fine. Haven't had any hunger, if anything it's more boredom. I definitely appreciate food more - never realized how much time and attention is spent on it!

And as for detox - 0 symptoms yet. I think this is due to the fact that I have eaten organic for 4 months, raw for almost two weeks, and have been going to the sauna 5-7 times a week for a month. I'll keep everyone updated.

Thanks all

[rawfigure]

such good advice so I will say GOOD FOR YOU ! Stick to it :D :D :D

[aubrey]

I had a falling out with two of my girlfriends that are vegetarians. They called me a "kook" among other things when I went raw. Basically, they saw I was healthier and trimmer, and had so much more energy. I think they were really put off by it, and I was told second hand that they thought I was trying to show up their vegetarianism...but people can be very secure.

I am constantly having to remind myself that sometimes, (not always) people think things are all about them when they aren't. We're all guilty of it from time to time...Americans tend to be kind of egocentric. (Especially the bunch I got to school with! Sheesh!) Women are easily jealous of men, too...men have an easier time losing wieght. Men crave sweets less than women on average (but this doesn't mean they eat healthier on a whle! ;) I have seen insecure men, too, to be fair, but not as many insecure men as women...and I think that is likely a product of culture, in a lot of instances.

Is there some way to include your girlfriend? I know that when I went raw, it was for chronic health reasons...my boyfriend is supportive, and we do cleanses together and he even tries stuff that i make to eat. Maybe just tell her that you want to be healthy together, and see if this is something she would be willing to do with you...

[BrianC]

so...my gf just said all this in an aim conversation

(8:17:02 PM): and im okay with ur little master cleanse
(8:17:30 PM): because ur a good boyfriend, and as long as we are good together and not fighting, and as long as youre respecting me 100% and being a good understand boyfriend there are no problems
(8:18:39 PM): im okay with the cleanse if it means youre going to be eating again, your not going to be drinking a lot of alcohol anymore, and if youre continually there for me through everything and remain loyal, we will be perfect!
(8:19:00 PM): im sorry i freaked out
(8:19:11 PM): kaitlin i think was making more of it and i realize it
(8:21:45 PM): yea you annoy me sometimes, but i think you are trying to find yourself and want to lead a healthy lifestyle and i want you and i to be healthy and happy
(8:22:19 PM): i noticed a more mature you recently
(8:27:57 PM): all i care about is your health and my health, and how considerate we are of each other and how well we can still make this work until next may [when i graduate - long distance thing]

so that's a relief - thanks for the input everyone

[Snownoir]

I was really happy to read that ending. I'm in a long distance relationship too, so I can really feel for any kind of discomfort that blooms. Maturity is key (because with that comes respect and all else follows that) and she came across pretty mature in that message. Hurray for us mature folk who can handle the long distance thing. ;) I'm constantly hearing it from my friends (negative things). So anyway, sorry to ramble, its just that I can relate and it was nice to read that. Thanks for sharing that with us.

[aubrey]

Yay! That's awesome! I'm glad you had faith in her... :) sometimes, we all overreact at first!