What do you think of vegetarian dog food?

[daisyduke]

I'm thinking about switching my dogs to Natural Balance Vegetarian Formula Ultra Premium Dog Food. http://www.petco.com/Shop/petco_Product_R_504_PC_productlist_Nav_183_N_22+92 _cp_2_Nao_12_sku_899070_familyID_10962.aspx

Here is a picture and description. What are your thoughts on this? Is it okay for dogs to be vegetarian? I just can't stand purchasing meat products anymore (especially if not organic)! Thanks!

[Svadhyaya]

I've tried 2 different (high-quality) brands of vegetarian dog food and both of them gave my dogs diarrhea and made them throw up. I've never tried the brand you are talking about, however.

The food I feed them now has lots of fruits and veggies included, but also brown rice and human-food-quality (if there is such a thing) meat. They are doing wonderfully on that.

[moonstone523]

I feed my dog fresh rice and boiled chicken daily.

She has never once had a problem or had to see a vet.

Why do you want to make your dog a vegetarian? Processed dog food is like processed people food. Ew.

Give your dog real food. :)

[Revvell]

Dogs are naturally carnivores.

Revvell

[chilove]

I have to agree with everyone else so far. As an ethical vegan I would LOVE to be able to feed my dogs and cat a vegan diet but I have to accept the fact that am the guardian to animals that are biologically designed to eat meat and as their guardian I have the responsibility to do what is best for THEM. If you want to do the best for your dog you should him/her a raw meat and bones diet. It is super cheap (based on chicken), pretty easy is definitely the healthiest option for them. You can find a lot of information online about feeding dogs raw, just do a google search.

I have two rats that are raw vegans. :-) If you want vegan pets you can always adopt rats or a rabbit in the future. :-)

All the best,

Audrey
www.rawhealing.com

[Nimmanu]

Yeah, your dog is not made to eat a strict vegetarian diet any more than you are made to eat a strict meat diet. Trying to force morality upon him will only cause him to become sickly the same way a SAD diet does to humans. It is not ethical to make your animal sick out of a need to force them to a moralistic stance.

[daisyduke]

Okay - I guess I'm doing the right thing. I feed them raw meat and bones right now. Thanks for your input!

[vgloveforlife]

Nimmanu-some could argue that humans are not made to eat a strict vegan diet just as much as we are not made to eat a strict meat diet. Is feeding your child a strict vegan diet wrong then?

Daiskyduke-One of the longest living dogs was a vegetarian but it was feed freshly cooked soups not kibble. Kibble is unhealthy whether it's meat or vegetarian. If you are going to feed a vegetarian kibble you could supplement with fresh foods or even some meat once and awhile so it's well rounded.

[Nimmanu]

Nimmanu-some could argue that humans are not made to eat a strict vegan diet just as much as we are not made to eat a strict meat diet. Is feeding your child a strict vegan diet wrong then?

Daiskyduke-One of the longest living dogs was a vegetarian but it was feed freshly cooked soups not kibble. Kibble is unhealthy whether it's meat or vegetarian. If you are going to feed a vegetarian kibble you could supplement with fresh foods or even some meat once and awhile so it's well rounded.
The only semi-valid argument that could be used in that theory is our teeth. However, the length and nature of our digestive system indicates that, at most, we can eat bugs, but otherwise be strictly herbivorous. The belief that we are omnivorous is actually unscientific if you include anything but insects.

The length and nature of our teeth also bears this out. Even our canines are not long or strong enough to tear meat, only to tear herbiferous items of a nature such as roots.

Personally, I think I'll leave the bugs out of my diet. But if one wants to argue against vegetarianism, they'd have to come up with something better than the standard, "but look at our teeth!"

[vgloveforlife]

Nimmanu-our bodies were definitly designed to digest small amounts of animal protein and we are most likely natural omnivores like the bonobo monkeys that share almost identical DNA. Changing our diet to a predominatley vegan one requires some supplements such as b12 and possibly others which I am fine with (especially b12 supplementation).
I don't see anything wrong also with changing the diet of our companion animals more to a plant based one as long as they are healthy and are getting all their nutrients. Animals can adapt to different diets just like you and I can (Domesticated animals prove this by eating kibble! And a lot of the times they enjoy and prefer foods that they would never ever eat in the wild). Omnivorious animals such as dogs can live a happy healthy life on a plant based diet just as much as on a meat based one as long as the food is fresh and preferably organic.

[Revvell]

Dogs are not "omnivorous", they are "carnivorous":
Dogs are carnivorous (meat-eating) mammals. These fast-moving animals have keen senses, with an exceptionally good sense of smell. Dogs have powerful jaws, and sharp teeth. Domestic dogs were bred from wild dogs; wild dogs are the descendants of wolves.

[Nimmanu]

Nimmanu-our bodies were definitly designed to digest small amounts of animal protein and we are most likely natural omnivores like the bonobo monkeys that share almost identical DNA. Changing our diet to a predominatley vegan one requires some supplements such as b12 and possibly others which I am fine with (especially b12 supplementation).
I don't see anything wrong also with changing the diet of our companion animals more to a plant based one as long as they are healthy and are getting all their nutrients. Animals can adapt to different diets just like you and I can (Domesticated animals prove this by eating kibble! And a lot of the times they enjoy and prefer foods that they would never ever eat in the wild). Omnivorious animals such as dogs can live a happy healthy life on a plant based diet just as much as on a meat based one as long as the food is fresh and preferably organic.
Bugs are the only logical meat source we could eat, as I already stated.

Like I said, I don't really want to eat bugs, so I'll go with supplementation, should I end up needing it.

Dogs and cats are not made to eat vegetables. Their teeth are not made properly to grind them up before swallowing. Their guts are not made properly for digesting them. Their entire internal structure is made for meat, from their teeth to their poopers.

Just as we are made to eat predominantly fruits, some vegetables and roots... and bugs.

We are not made to chase down chickens or kill cows and eat their raw flesh. This is why we must cook it, because it is contrary to our digestive systems. When we do eat cooked meat, we get sickly.

Just as a dog or cat can get sickly eating something artificial to them.

Just as it makes no sense to feed humans incorrectly, it makes no sense to feed animals incorrectly. It goes against the whole concept of moral treatment of animals.

[vgloveforlife]

Wolves eat berries, fruit and ocassionally grass.

Dogs have been eating plants since the beginning of their exsistence.

[Veganforlife]

I think it tastes bitter :p
JUST KIDDING!

[Veganforlife]

What do wolves eat?

Wolves are carnivores (meat eaters) but they will eat other foods as well. Their diet ranges from big game, such as elk and moose, to earthworms, berries and grasshoppers.

To avoid using too much energy catching their food, wolves prey on weaker members of a herd, such as old, young or sick animals. In summer, when the herds migrate, wolves eat mice, birds and even fish. They may also eat carrion.

Wolves eat their food very quickly, probably to protect it from being stolen, and to decrease the chance of attack from other predators. They eat the best parts first, and come back later for the remainder, as they can't afford to be wasteful. They will hide food in the snow, or icy soil, which helps to preserve it, and protect it from scavengers.

Wolves can eat every 5-6 hours when there is plenty of food available, or they can fast and live on scraps for 2 weeks when there is less food around.

Their digestion is very efficient, with all but 5 percent of large meat feeds able to be digested. Any splinters of bone that are not broken down somehow become wrapped in undigested hair, which protects the intestines from injury.

Pups are fed by the adults who disgorge fresh meat from their stomachs, or carry back fresh pieces of meat to the den.

Biologists learn much about the diet of wolves by studying their waste products, which are called 'scats'.

[Nimmanu]

Wolves eat berries, fruit and ocassionally grass.

Dogs have been eating plants since the beginning of their exsistence.
Just like we eat bugs.

So I guess we should make our entire diet bugs, right? Since we eat some sometimes (in our "scientifically proper diet"), we should eat no more veggies or fruits or roots, and eat all bugs/ meat?

Shall we, as raw foodists, argue from now on that it is reasonable and proper for humans to eat only (RAW!) bugs, since they are technically a small part of our diet?

[vgloveforlife]

Animals can adapt...my cat prefers vegan potato soup over raw meat! He will even munch on my wheatgrass instead of the raw meat.

Nimmau-there is so much controversy with what humans are supposed to eat although I do agree with you that our diets should be predominantly plants. I know some would disagree though. I know people who eat raw meat as their many food source and they seem very healthy.
Bugs do seem like a logical source of meat for us...I think maybe eggs too.

Anyway I really do believe dogs can do fine on a plant based diet. Like I said before to the OP just feed fresh foods in addition to kibble and maybe some meat once and awhile.
I do think a fresh plant based diet is MUCH better for a dog than cooked to death meat (filled with horomones, antibiotics etc) kibble.

[Nimmanu]

I think the biggest problem that we have with our pets is that we feed THEM cooked food, too.

I can't imagine how it's any better for them than it is for us, eh?

[Revvell]

I tend to agree with Nimmanu.

AND, I've met two men who are (were?) on the paleo diet and both were controlling, angry and looked older than their age (whatever that means).

Guess I'll eat as I do; allow carnivores to eat as they should and leave others to their othernesses.

Revvell

[Suzy]

<snip>Dogs are naturally carnivores<snip>

Actually, dogs are Carnivores/Insectivores/Omnivores (all three!).
Cats, however, are obligate carnivores.

There are many animals in the wild which are Carnivores/Insectivores/Omnivores:
Badgers
Bats
Bears (incuding polar and Giant Panda)
Ferrets
Giant Anteater
Hedgehogs
Hyenas
Meerkat
Mustelidae
Pigs
Raccoons
Red Pandas
Sloths
and Wolves (as previously mentioned)

I'm not sure that we are necessarily "imposing morals" on our pets in deciding their diet. We are dictating what they eat, yes... hopefully that is determined by what is considered to be the most healthy for them. Dogs in the wild do not eat a stricly vegan diet, no. They also do not spend most of their days lazing about the house, eating regular meals, having vet visits, receiving vaccinations (a topic of debate for another discussion), and being told what to do... in essence, they do not live a domesticated life. So, we are imposing much more on our pets than simply what they eat.
The truth is, domesticated dogs no longer live a "natural" life, and haven't for a long time.

I have two dogs who have been vegan almost their entire lives. They are nine this year, and going strong.
We feed them a combination of foods we prepare, supplemented with pre-prepared foods. One of the pre-prepared foods is Dr. Harvey's Veg-to-Bowl for dogs, and we supplement their diet with various things (like different oils), all "human grade."
We recently visited a dog boutique, of sorts, that sells vegan dog treats (among a ton of other things) and the owner just told us about her 16-year-old Bichon who has also been vegan all of his life and is as spry as pup.
And I have a friend whose three rescued dogs who have been vegan since they were rescued (like ours). They are old and gray now, and still fit as fiddles.

[vgloveforlife]

Suzy-Great to hear those stories of healthy vegan dogs!

[kaybee]

hi--

Suzy, im just wondering if you can provide any more details on the vegan diet you feed your dogs.... i had had my dog on several different kinds of vegetarian kibble, one was OK but one made her sick, and then had tried purchasing the "VeggieDog" supplement powder that is supposed to include recipes for homemade vegan dog food...well, it did, but it was heavy on TVP (soy protein) and that sort of thing, all heavily processed, so i stopped using it...can u suggest better options? (while i understand the points people are making about dogs naturally eating meat, i figure if my dog can be healthy on a vegan diet, then why not. if my dog can still be healthy and other creatures dont have to die for that, then why not. i am vegan for ethical reasons and the idea of having to contribute to the death of other creatures in order to feed my dog is a tough one for me, so if it can be avoided, then i say go for it. ) Also, do you think puppies can do ok on vegan diets?

thanks much--


kaybee

[carolg]

My dog is raw for 7 years now eating meat, nothing cooked either. She's on strike from veggies at the present time, but I'm not worried either. She's healthy, happy and alive at 8 to the max. No way would she be a vegetarian or would I want that. Check BARF search via google for egroups worldwide, shirleys wellness cafe another great source for info. Hiope this helps.
carolg

[Suzy]

Kaybee, I'm happy to share what I know and what we do. :)

Our dogs have been vegan all their lives (since their rescue from the Human Society, that is... so, one since four months of age, and the other since seven months). We have experimented with a lot of vegan foods. For a long time, we purchased veggie kibble from WowBow Distributors (http://wow-bow.com/) online. We supplemented that with various oils (cold pressed virgin olive oil, flax oil, etc.). Mind you, this stuff was all cooked and processed... we were doing better than conventional dog foods, but certainly not optimal.

In the past couple of years, they have been on a combination of Dr. Harvey's Veg-To-Bowl (http://www.drharveys.com/dogs/vtbfacts.asp), "human grade" oils, beans that we rotate (lentil, black bean, garbanzo), sometimes a vegetarian canned preparation is added...
We try to ensure that there is enough protein, carbohydrates, fat, vitamins, and minerals to meet their needs. Not too much or too little of any one thing.

Here are some resources:

The Warm Store
Dog and cat food via mail order catalog.
(800) 889-WARM
12 Tannery Brook Road, Woodstock, NY 12498.
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Nature's Recipe
Vegan canned food and kibble for dogs.
(800) 237-3856
341 Bonnie Circle, Corona, CA 91720.
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Basically Natural
Vegan dog food.
(301) 834-7923
(800) 352 7099
109 East G Street Brunswick, MD 21716.
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Harbingers of a New Age
Vegetarian cat and dog book, supplement mix.
(406) 295-4944
717 E. Missoula Ave, Troy, MT 59935-9609
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Wow-Bow Distributor Ltd.
Vegan/vegetarian dog foods. (Also meat-based products.)
(516) 254-6064
(800) 326-0230
13B Lucon Drive Deer Park, NY 11729
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Natural Life Pet Products, Inc.
Vegan/veg dog food. (Also available from veterinarians and pet food centers.)
(800) 367-2391
Frontenac, Kansas 66762
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Wysong Corporation
Vegetarian dog food.
(800) 748-0188
Dept. CF, 1880 N. Eastman Ave., Midland, MI
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And I mentioned and provided the link above to Dr. Harvey's.

Those are for pre-prepared foods, and/or like Dr. Harvey's which has been dehydrated. There are also a number of books you can purchase if you want to prepare your pets' food from start to finish. There is also a good deal of information online (such as http://www.vegan.org/going_vegan/veggie_dogs/index.html).

We prepare our dogs' food every night while we're getting our own dinner ready. It doesn't take any longer than preparing our own, but it is certainly much more involved than simply opening a bag and filling a bowl. It took a short while to develop the habit and now we prepare their food a day or two in advance. This makes it easier when we have worked all day and commuted an hour home.

As for whether puppies can be vegan, I would say that depends on the age of the puppy, but -again- ours were vegan since 4 months and 7 months of age. They are nine years old now.
My best advice about that is to find a holistic vet (if you're lucky enough to have one in your area, and if not, online!) and discuss it with him/her. :)

I wish you AND your pets a long, happy,healthy life! :)

Suzy