Wisslewj 'just not vegan' posts

[Indi]

'I would be happy to offer advice for correcting this issue further if you desire. The answer is raw, just not vegan.'

God Bless
Jeff
wisslewj@yahoo.com

I found this response on the thread that BDraw started about green smoothies.

I have also clicked on a link left by wisslewj, about introducing raw meat into the diet.

Over the last couple of days, I have noticed wisslewj leaving several similar posts indicating that such things as teeth problems, hair shedding and sugar problems can be corrected by eating a raw NON vegan diet.

I know that wisslewj is not directly posting advice, rather suggesting that individuals contact direct.

However, i really do feel that this is inappropriate considering this is a RAW VEGAN SITE!

I am beginning to question your motives wisslewj!

[Sharon in Colorado]

Yes it is not a good idea to attempt to direct those away from raw plant food.

I remember a site called rawplus that would certainly be open to discussions like that.

Please continue to post here though - your raw vegan thoughts are always welcome.

[Revvell]

Did you email him? Seems that would be the most direct way to contact someone.

Revvell

[Amberly]

"Yes it is not a good idea to attempt to direct those away from raw plant food."

I understand that this is a raw vegan board, and that what we discuss is raw vegan food, but some people go so far as to make it sound like a religion/dogma. It gets a little scary at that point. Images of crusader and witch hunters come into my mind when I see comments like this.

I enjoy posting here and learning about raw food lifestyles, but I am not interested in joining a cult. I do not think this board was intended to be one.

[SwishTN]

If Alissa uses honey in recipes, which she does, would that be vegan?

Is this truly a raw vegan board, or is that what a lot of people would like it to be.

Just a question.

I agree with Revvell..... why not contact people directly?

Maybe this is a raw vegan board, yet, I have never been super clear on that.

Lauri

[RowanC]

Seems to me that it should be ok to ask someone to contact them privately about something that cannot be discussed in this group.

I mean, raw vegan may be perfect for one person but not necessarily another and to censor someone from even mentioning meat or dairy reminds me of the SouthPark episode on the 4 letter word we use for defecating... I laughed til I thought I'd die.

Anyway... I understand you don't want meat or dairy discussed on this VEGAN RAW site. But to keep someone from contacting another person privately reeks a little too strongly of censorship. We're all adults. I'm sure my day won't fall apart if someone says, "Hey, contact me personally to discuss this."

:::ducking so she doesn't get hit by raw tomatoes:::: :D :D :D

[Sharon in Colorado]

Amberly this is the way Alissa wants it. She pays for the board and we are using it here as guests. To me it is like asking people not to smoke in your home. Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry you see it as a cult. Most people viewing this board are likely not even 100% raw or vegan all of the time, but the discussion is supposed to be a support group for those who want to be all raw and vegan.

[Revvell]

Ditto.......

Revvell



Amberly this is the way Alissa wants it. She pays for the board and we are using it here as guests. To me it is like asking people not to smoke in your home. Nothing wrong with that.

Sorry you see it as a cult. Most people viewing this board are likely not even 100% raw or vegan all of the time, but the discussion is supposed to be a support group for those who want to be all raw and vegan.

[luckitri]

Personally I found that wisslewjs link to enzymes helped me to understand it better than anything else I have read. Now I am trying to be able to order Alissa's since I read the information that he presented even though it was not vegan. I see the difficulty with the desires of this board (mission statement) and the fact that the board is a wonderful wonderful resource and a public service and I don't know where the boundary should be drawn but I have appreciated his information although it has not tempted me to leave raw vegan anymore than I would have otherwise.....I read a link to that guy whose name I cannot remember right - A something V something that he cured himself eating raw meat. I believe that he did this many years ago when our meat supply was safer. I would not dare consider this option today with all the growth hormones, antibiotics and diseased animals being sold for meat today. Where did I just read that 777 mad cows were eaten in the US this year? I am not offended by his information. I have found that it has enhanced my understanding. I appreciate what he has posted because again - it has increased my understanding of raw vegan diet. So the desire to be dedicated purist may slow down or stop the information exchange. He has posted links that I never would have found on my own. (Or at least haven't so far.) I have learned to value open-mindedness and information exchange most in my life so that is me.

[Rawkinlocs]

I think the bottom line here is not that someone is saying, "Hey, contact me for more info" but IMHO, it's the underlying message behind it. I mean, this board is supposed to be a place of support for those who wish to be raw vegan/vegetarian (and no, Lauri, honey is not vegan but - well, if you do a quick search, we've gone down the honey debate road a few times so that is why I always make reference to the board being raw vegan/vegetarian because meat, dairy and eggs are not advocated here) and there just seems to be this undertone in some of those postings that says, "Pssst...Raw vegan diets are not optimal - if you want to truly thrive on a raw diet, you're gonna have to include some raw dairy at the very least if you want those tooth, hair, etc. issues to go away".

But you all are right, you can't stop someone from contacting an individual. People can and will make decisions on what they want to do - vgloveforlife in one thread actually told him in so few words, "Thanks, but no thanks". However, there are also a lot of newbies who don't need all these mixed messages being sent as they try to figure this all out...if they came here to learn more about the raw vegan/vegetarian diet, then they don't need to hear all the contradicting information, on HERE (there's plenty of it in other places) because this site was designed to support those seeking out the raw vegan/vegetarian diet and how to thrive on THAT. Let's give people some raw vegan/vegetarian solutions to their challenges rather than writing it off totally and saying, "Hey just face it, you're gonna hafta get some raw animal in ya for this to go away!"

Also, just for the record, we are not all adults here on this forum...there are quite a few teens and preteens here posting as well. But aside from that fact, just imagine if someone new to raw comes here and they read those posts and then they're like, "Oh no...if I choose to go raw, I have to eat raw meat or drink raw milk so I don't end up with dental issues or hair loss?! Well, I'm not doing that so I might as well just continue eating what I'm eating!"

But one of the main reasons I posted the "Raw vegan/vegetarian reinforcements" thread is because people need to know that they DON'T need/have to switch to a diet consisting of raw meat and/or dairy in order to thrive - that sometimes people will have issues with teeth and hair and sometimes they won't but when they do, most times it is rectified over time.

So, no, we can't stop someone from offering "alternative" information via email to others, but this thread indicates that while some may not be offended at the suggestions given, many are and are speaking up about it.

We'll see what Alissa says about it when she returns home, though.

[Shona]

I think this person posted a link for Weston Price which is extremely anti-vegetarian. I've had past encounters on vegetarian/vegan forums with people from WP ... I find them quite annoying. I don't troll the meat forums trying to convert people to veg*nism. Sheesh.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I don't troll the meat forums trying to convert people to veg*nism. Sheesh.

LOL Shona - are there any meat forums? Let's go check them out! ;)

Well, they don't particularly offend me although I think if there weren't any guidelines in place, I could see it getting out of hand with a bunch of threads popping up about eating animal products, recipes, lots of people asking questions about what kind of animal product to eat, it could get ugly. :rolleyes:

That is why the raw plus message boards were created, for those who do eat it and like to discuss the 'benefits' of it.

[dreamrawalwz]

This is how I see it...it's pretty simple and straight forward. This is a raw vegan board for those that wish to be raw and VEGAN. There shouldn't be discussions of meat, egg, or dairy on here. I think even contacting in private to someone who WISHES to be vegan (or toying with the idea) about how we need meat/dairy/eggs isn't respectful. As someone previously mentioned...many are lurking and just starting out on this path. Mixed messages are extremely comfusing and I don't think helpful. People are here to learn about the health benefits of being raw veganism, if not just being vegan. They're here to learn that you don't "have" to eat animal products to remain healthy. This is not a cult at all. I'm sorry some see it that way. We're all after the optimal level of health and on our own journey. There are a few simple rules here for a reason and we should all respect that.

[keylime]

I think the info. that wisslewj has posted- and the way it has been written- is respectful. Indeed this is a "vegan" forum, however, folks need to be open in their search for health. As a naturopathic doctor, I know from years of personal experience with my clients that switching from processed fare to whole foods provides ground for miraculous health improvements, HOWEVER, most of these same clients reach a "cleansing plateau" and only continue in their upward climb after adding small amounts of organic, raw animal products to their diet....as much as I wish to believe otherwise- I see this year after year...after year. One person putting his information out there for others to contact him if interested is not going to cause major upheaval in this forum.

[Revvell]

Well, who is this person and what does he know? He says he's studied this and that....

The point is, Alissa pays for this site and it is for people looking for support in
the raw food lifestyle AS SHE WRITES IT in her book and in her mission statement.

Just as people tend to complicate and convolute everything else, this has become convoluted and complicated.

IF Jeff wants to be so helpful then, let him get and pay for his own site, his own forum AND his own book and dvd's.

Alissa has shown through her own experiences and those of her clients and students what works for her and them. Personally, I don't know Jeff, his experiences, his training (other than what he just stated in anoter post) and why he's coming to THIS site in particular to do what he's doing.

[Rawkinlocs]

I think the info. that wisslewj has posted- and the way it has been written- is respectful. Indeed this is a "vegan" forum, however, folks need to be open in their search for health. As a naturopathic doctor, I know from years of personal experience with my clients that switching from processed fare to whole foods provides ground for miraculous health improvements, HOWEVER, most of these same clients reach a "cleansing plateau" and only continue in their upward climb after adding small amounts of organic, raw animal products to their diet....as much as I wish to believe otherwise- I see this year after year...after year. One person putting his information out there for others to contact him if interested is not going to cause major upheaval in this forum.

That's fine, people can be open to whatever they want, no one here is saying "if you eat meat you'll be killed or you'll die!"...bottom line is everything else outside of what this forum was intended FOR can be researched outside of this forum.

But this site has a purpose that has been clearly outlined by the out-of-pocket-paying forum owner...what is so hard to comprehend or accept about that? Respect Alissa and what she intended for HER board, period!

=====GENERAL STATEMENT AHEAD - NOT DIRECTED AT THE QUOTED=====
I don't even know why we're continuing to "argue" this point. This forum is for the SUPPORT OF the raw vegan/vegetarian diet. All else needs to be taken someplace else. The Rawplus board, as Sharon mentioned, amongst others.

Tell me something, would ANY of you have the gall to go to a cooked vegan, I mean downright vegan where they don't have anything to do with the explotation of animals at all; would you go there and bring up these discussions? Probably not and if you did, that would be VERY disrespectful and you'd probably be banned for it and with good reason because a vegan forum is very specific...it's not a cult, it's just serving a specific purpose for a group of like-minded individuals. Why is it that when it comes to a raw vegan/vegetarian board, people think they can and should be able to say whatever they want here and then when people get called out on it, we get accused of being too censoring or we get called a cult?

I also wanted to say that I'm getting a little irritated by the constant references to "dogma" and "cult" being insinuated around here lately due to this drama. Don't you folks realize that some people view the very fact that we're eating RAW, period, as being "strange", "weird", "too extreme"?! :rolleyes:

So, to call someone who is adamently vegan dogmatic or what have you, isn't fair. Everyone is zealous about something or other...working out, eating raw, being vegan, being raw paleo, being a Christian, being Wiccan, whatever it is.

One thing I do know for sure is this...Alissa Cohen formed a site for a specific purpose and she has the last say in all of this regarding what is allowed or not allowed on her forum...so, as I mentioned before, we'll see what she has to say about all of this once she returns home from England.

[Gosia]

I think it would be easier for some to comprehend some thoughts presented above if they saw this forum as a guest-room in Alissa's house.

Gosia

[Sharon in Colorado]

Shiva???

Memories.... ((singing an old B.S. tune in my head))

[Revvell]

Memories.... ((singing an old B.S. tune in my head))

Re-incarnation?....

[light&happy]

I take issue with the fact that this is Alissa's forum, or her "house". I believe that I, in part, support this website as well considering I buy Alissa's products. I have also had friends and relatives buy her book and DVD at my suggestion. I also plan on attending her certification class. Of course she pays for the site, which may in part be possible by the fact that we buy her products! I absolutely can not believe that people here are actually being reprimanded for mentioning meat or dairy. This is a DISCUSSION board. People are going to bring up their questions, thoughts and ideas as they pertain to their raw food journey. Why not give your own advice based on your experience and let the questioner make up their own mind? If one is really certain that raw veganism is the best way to health and vitality, than the results will speak for themselves. We don't need to judge those who disagree and suggest that they find a new board to post on unless perhaps there has been some inappropriate profanity that I somehow missed on this subject? Controlling the respectful responses of those trying to be helpful is NOT an open discussion. 99% of the info on this board is on the benefits of raw vegan food. I don't think that anyone will be confused by a few responses about the enzymes in meat products! I agree with the person who posted that the fanatacism about what others say is cult-like. Not good. I am a raw vegan, and as a student of naturopathy, I am interested in what others have to say, whether I agree or not.

[Gosia]

"I take issue with the fact that this is Alissa's forum"

??? :rolleyes:

Gosia

[light&happy]

I believe that I ment "her forum" as in "her house, she pays for it". As i stated above, I believe that I, along with anyone else who buys her products also supports this site.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I absolutely can not believe that people here are actually being reprimanded for mentioning meat or dairy.

No, it's the suggestion of consuming these products to improve health, not the mention of meat or dairy, which does happen all the time and is perfectly acceptable within the guidelines of the forum.

People ask all the time inquisitively, the difference here is someone advocating people add it to their vegan diets for health reasons.

Many people bring up animal products...

"I had a dream that I ate a big mac"

"I'm trying to get my daughter off dairy"

"What can I substitute for eggs/omeletts?"


This is more like:

"The exclusion of animal products have caused many people to lose hair and have dental problems"

That's the difference.

[Gosia]

Respectfully disagree. It is presumptious to presume (ha ha ha) that just because one buys Alissa's products then they can do whatever they feel like on the forum created by Alissa. No, you don't own this forum. And yes, you do need to obey the rules as specified. The money that you pay for the products, gives you the right to use the products, but not the right to ignore the policy of this forum. And, I'd say that this is a widespread phenomenon (try your luck elsewhere to test this ;)).

Gosia

[Revvell]

I take issue with the fact that this is Alissa's forum, or her "house".

Feel free to although it IS her forum.


We don't need to judge those who disagree and suggest that they find a new board to post on...

Ummm, are you "judging" the "judgers"?

[Rawkinlocs]

As quoted by Alissa in various past threads:

"Its a raw forum for people who are striving to be raw.

This does not mean that you cant participate here if you are not all raw as many here are working towards that and are 'playing' with the percentages that work best for them.

As far as the discussion of eating raw animals and promoting that, no i guess you could say that would not be welcome here as this board was set up for the purpose of getting support and learning more about the raw plant based diet. Not a ‘fanatical vegan raw board’ but people supporting each other in that and not to encourage the consumption of animals.
Btw/ i don’t eat raw milk, cheese or eggs obvious now that ive stated the above I suppose, but...;) "

=========

"...Im talking about links that point towards boards that slam raw foods, like tom billings site.
Someone wrote a post about the cons of a certain food and then posted his site to back it up. i also 5 minutes later took out a link form someone’s post about another site where someone was promoting a meat eating diet. Come on people, this is a RAW FOOD SUPPORT BOARD! if you want to read those other sites or gather information on what you need to do and are not sure about raw, fine, go and read them and when you decide you want to do raw, come back and join us. This board is not for the discussion of whether raw is good or bad or for you to decide if its best for you, its for the people who are raw to chat, get advise and support each other!...
Alissa

================
"...Please keep in mind that this board is a continuation of what I teach. I originally created this board to go along with the teachings in my book, living on live food. I have let that slide a bit, obviously, because as you all will see there are many ways in which people approach raw food. There are threads on here about other teachers, other techniques and variations on the raw food diet other then what is taught in my book. I decided a while ago that that is fine. I am just happy that people have a place of support to go to and be accepted within the raw food lifestyle. I realize that there are many ways in which people choose to eat raw and everyone is different so I do not have a problem with that. But PLEASE just keep in mind that this is a raw food support board and there are things that wont be tolerated here such as talking about how to transition back to cooked, why eating raw nuts and raw fats are bad for you, and talking about how this diet didn’t work for you.

I personally love to see a post about someone struggling and asking for help because that helps so many. And the posts about the emotional aspects of eating raw and the struggles and obstacles that come up around that, etc… but if you are not convinced of a raw food diet and are feeling that this may not be right for you, then please figure that out before you post on this board with people who are looking for support and encouragement on HOW TO DO THIS and the questions that come up around it. Of course my favorites are the post about how well this is working for you and the amazing benefits you see with raw because that is what encourages others to take the leap and regain their health and their lives."

=============

"...Second and this is a biggie for this board is that i do not advocate (Weston) Price as I do not agree that eating butter, lamb and the like is healthy. Great, he studies primitive culture, who eats that way now days? No one I have ever seen or met. And… there have since been many studies such as Campbell's that are now concluding that dairy and meat are not as healthy as a vegan diet.

To be totally honest with you I don’t care to debate this. This is a raw food board and I posted this to bring light to this book that I thought could help people. Please read the mission statement ____. I appreciate your intellect in posts but from what I have seen you seem to be playing the devils advocate in many threads and that is really not what this board is for. These people are not here to debate or think about ‘is this right for me’ they have already decided its what they want to do and they are here to get support and help within that realm. I have already erased many posts from you when you added a link to tom billings and such. If they want to find this info they can easily do so but this board is for people who ‘want to be raw’ plain and simple unlike some of the other boards debating weather this is good for bad.

Please accept my apology if this is taken the wrong way as im not trying to offend you and you seem to offer some very intelligent information on this board, but if you have no desire to be raw vegan then why are you here? It just makes me a little suspicious. Of course there are different paths for nutrition but this board is here to only promote one. Raw veganism.

Thanks for your understanding ---.
Best,
Alissa"

====================

"Hi _____,

Thank you for understanding what I was saying and for taking it the way I meant it. I do think you’re sincere as well. It is difficult not to bring in other paths of nutrition and diet and to debate and give thought to them, while discussing issues about raw diet and nutrition. But I have to somewhere draw the line as things get so out of control so fast on a forum board. So I have decided to draw a hard line about keeping this board only for discussions of help and moving forward and keeping people motivated about this raw vegan diet.

Yes, I understand very well that there are so many conflicting thoughts about diet and nutrition. I wondered for years, about 25 years ago when I become vegetarian, why every book I read said something different about the same item of food. I drove myself crazy reading and searching and experimenting on myself to find the right path. I don’t think there will ever be a common mindset about it, just like, as you stated, religion or philosophy. Its just that if everyone on this board were doubting and posting the negatives that are out there it wouldn’t be much of a place of support. Of course I encourage people to do their research and to read and search and make sure they are not burying their heads in the sand and just taking one persons opinion as their truth. Do a search on line, read more, talk to people, etc… but when you feel this is the place your in and this really feels right to you and you want to explore the beauty of it more and talk about what is right and great and amazing and life changing about this diet, then come on in and join us! Again I had to draw the line at some point about what this board is really for. Anyway, I appreciate your honestly and I hope you will continue to enjoy the board and offer your ‘raw’ advise.
Best,
Alissa"

=========
Nuff said?

I think this thread has run it's course and I REALLY want Alissa to give her final say on this matter so we can all squash it!

So, until "mama" comes home, this thread is going on lock down and sorry if you don't like that decision, but...