This debate on Fat [Archive]

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 12:12 AM

Dear Peops

I have noticed much talk about fat in here and think that some stuff is good and other stuff perhaps lacking a bit. I firmly belive we should make up our own minds on things based on all facts. That said, i wanted to present some facts about fats that many may not know as from what I see in here it seems people eat very little of them. (keep in mind these are RAW fats)

SATURATED FATS
1. Each cell in the body is 50% saturated fat! It is this fat that gives cells the proper firmness that allows nutrients to pass in freely and toxins out. If there is no saturated fat the body will use what is available....transfats, polyunsaturated, mono.....this leaves cells "floppy" and hence in poor health.
2. For calcium to be absorbed properly we must have saturated fats in the diet. About 50% is optimum.
3. Saturated fats lower Lp(a) --Lpa is an indicator of heart disease
4. They absorb toxins and help flush them from the system. In doing so they protect the liver
5. EFA's are better absorbed and retained in the tissues when saturated fats are present in enough quantity
6. Saturated fat is the prefrred food for the heart. (the heart is surrounded by a fat layer that is saturated)
7. It is antimicrobial and boosts the immune system.

There are MANY good sources. The best vegan source would be Coconut oil.

Mono unsaturated fats are quite healthy as are polyunsaturated but in small quantieties. Too much poly is actually dangerous. (74% of the gunk in clogged arteries is actually polyunsaturated fats!)

There are some GREAT articles here on fat:

http://www.westonaprice.org/knowyourfats/index.html

Specifically good are the articles titled:
-The Importance of Saturated Fats for Biological Functions
-A New Look at Coconut Oil

By the way, for those wanting to lose weight, cutting out alot of carbs and upping the level of saturated fat will literally drop the weight right off. Fat doesnt make fat. Fat absorbs toxins. When one is fat they are over toxic. New fat taken in will replace the old and get rid of the toxins and excess weight. The eskimos ate a diet of 80% saturated fat and not a one of them was overweight. My wife and i eat alot of healthy raw saturated fat. Niether of us has a lick of fat on us. It is a huge misconception that we dont need fat. fat is actually one of the most important things we can eat. Just needs to be raw and te right kind of fat.

Healthfully :)
Jeff

pdx kris

11-12-2006, 01:32 AM

While I do follow a fairly low-fat diet (about 15% of my calories), I find that I feel my best when the fats I am eating are primarily saturated. Specifically, I do much better on avocados and coconut than I do on oils. I try to make my salad dressings with these whole foods rather than blending in completely unsaturated sources.

It really is a shame how the soybean industry has soiled our regard for plant-based saturated fats. :(

alex

11-12-2006, 05:54 AM

This is great info - thanks!!

By far the best info on fats that I have ever come across is a book by Udo Erasmus called: Fats that Heal Fats that Kill.

The book is a little techinical in parts but the information that it contains is priceless. I believe Udo may be the best authority on fats on the planet.

alex

Revvell

11-12-2006, 09:21 AM

By the way, for those wanting to lose weight, cutting out alot of carbs and upping the level of saturated fat will literally drop the weight right off. Jeff

Great information on the fats ~ thank you, yet, I think a distinction needs to be made here between simple and complex carbohydrates. When people say ~ "cut out the carbs" many are now programmed to believe that means all the good stuff as well as the "bad" and also they are programmed to think "low carbs, high protein".

Alissa has pointed us to the way of the easiest way to eat ~ a varied diet balanced in all essentials ~ fats, protein, complex carbohydrates.

It is soooooo simple yet people feel the need to make it soooo complicated.

Just remember, eat raw and always, play with your food.

Revvell

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 10:14 AM

PDX, aye i agree it is a shame. :(

Alex, yeah that is a good book I did enjoy i as well. Alex, read some books by Mary Enig. She is quite the authority on fats as well. When one truely understand te chemical makeup of saturated fat and the hydrogen bonds etc one can see WHY it is so healthy and so vital.

Revell, you are absoluetly right. One must find a balance for their body types. No one diet really is right. In my experience some thrive on a more vegan fare whilest others a more carnivore fare. (all raw of course) Rather than hold to one diet dictorate, we must realize that we all have different insides and what works for us may not work for another. things like the autonic nervous systems dominant type, liver reserves and capacity as well as a host of things go into dictating what we would thrive on. But, balance is always key and a wise approach. :)

God Bless
Jeff

Revvell

11-12-2006, 11:13 AM

Jeff,

First of all, I don't agree that ANYone needs "carnivore fare" and if you've not read the mission statement, it's not something that is advocated or discussed here. If you've not read The China Study, you might wish to do so.

I was only speaking of raw fruits, nuts, seeds, veggies and greens as advocated by Alissa. As one who NEVER counts calories, fat, carbs, protein, etc., I'm finding my health, aliveness and awareness expanding because of the variety of my raw vegan food program and lifestyle.

Make it a great one.

Revvell

Revell, you are absoluetly right. One must find a balance for their body types. No one diet really is right. In my experience some thrive on a more vegan fare whilest others a more carnivore fare. (all raw of course) Rather than hold to one diet dictorate, we must realize that we all have different insides and what works for us may not work for another. things like the autonic nervous systems dominant type, liver reserves and capacity as well as a host of things go into dictating what we would thrive on. But, balance is always key and a wise approach. :)

Jeff

LightLover

11-12-2006, 12:33 PM

wisslewj:

* Don't forget the omega-3 acids, these are also essential fat acids!
These keep your brain flexible, if not available, your brainmembrane gets rigid.
* Your thread on saturated acids is excellent.
* I can highly recommend you to read the books of Dr. Young
(ph miracle and ph miracle for weight loss), this text is in line with your
thinking about fats and will open new doors for you, especially on the chapter
of toxins, while he is describing how your bodyfat is protecting you against toxins, without your bodyfat you would die.
* there are essential fats and aminoacids (objective), but nobody ever did came up with essentail carbohydrates.

But who are we to deny the results of low-fat rawfoodeaters, if they look healthy and feel healthy? The problem is that there are no (big) results of studies in the rawfoodworld about distinctions in diets.
All important studies have been done in the sadworld.
* We are all pioniers speaking each for ourselves and not for all, and I don't feel yet the urge in this sector for responding to polls or getting a little objective in a wider view, most people are focused on feeling well themselves and trying to get rid off their bounds with the sadworld, and I don't gonna complain about this, I think it is to early to join the believes, we are still in a kind of schock between the raw and sadworld.

LL

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 12:44 PM

Hey Revell and Light,

Both the book and the study sound interesting. i love reading so I will check em both out thanks.

Revell I wasnt advocating any diet in my post, only that as people we need to recognize we are all different and what works for one of us, for whatever reason (beit health, moral choices, etc.) may not work for another. Some thrive on some foods while others will not. I think we can both agree on that lol and that was all I was pointing out.

If a person thrives on lowfat diets as Light pointed out, then that is probably because at the time THAT is what they need. And that is good then for them. I just think when we become too rigid we may lose site of the journey of health we are all on.

Anyway, thanks again for the info guys.
God Bless
Jeff
wisslewj@yahoo.com

Revvell

11-12-2006, 01:21 PM

Hey Revell and Light,
Revell I wasnt advocating any diet in my post, only that as people we need to recognize we are all different and what works for one of us, for whatever reason (beit health, moral choices, etc.) may not work for another. Some thrive on some foods while others will not. I think we can both agree on that lol and that was all I was pointing out. wisslewj@yahoo.com

Gotcha. I wish I had the wherewithal to undertake a large enough study to put a specific amount of people, say 100 or so, put them on the same foods for the same amount of time and see what happens. lol

Being that I don't, guess I'll just have to experiment on meself.

Be well,

Revvell

Sharon in Colorado

11-12-2006, 01:31 PM

I'm finding that people starting out on a wildcard raw diet will eat upwards of 50% of their caloric intake of fat.

Once many of them are accustomed to the raw diet, often they will naturally desire less concentrated or processed fat and eat more fresh foods.

Of course this varies from person to person.

Also concentrated, dehydrated fats don't have as many benefits as fresh, whole sources of fats.

Concentrated and/or dehydrated and processed fats being the various oils and some of the commercially made nut butters.

Non-fresh, dried and sometimes rehydrated sources being seeds and nuts and some of the homemade nut butters, and dried olives.

Whole fresh sources being avocadoes, coconuts and other kinds of olives.

This just coming from the point of logic from the raw & living food standpoint - our bodies being whole living organic organisms recognizing other whole living organic organisms introduced to them.

LightLover

11-12-2006, 01:36 PM

Gotcha. I wish I had the wherewithal to undertake a large enough study to put a specific amount of people, say 100 or so, put them on the same foods for the same amount of time and see what happens. lol

Being that I don't, guess I'll just have to experiment on meself.

Be well,

Revvell

* Yeeeeah, together we are everything!

LL

LightLover

11-12-2006, 01:54 PM

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 03:19 PM

Sharon,

ur right. I dunno if i mentioned this in the strart but all fat MUST be raw. Whilest saturated fat can withstand more heat, when fats are heated the hydrogen bonds seperate causing the fat to move from a -CIS form to a -TRANS form. We all know how bad trans fat is. As I stated earlier about "floppy cells", the body will use whats available-even transfat! Can you imagine a transfat made cell!! EEEEEEWWWW!! Even worse, what ifthe cell being made with that was a liver cell, which has a long rebirth time - u would be stuck with that non working trans cell for quite awhile!! Imagine the non health one would suffer!

So....fats....all raw!! otherwise they are all bad...and sharon u are right about the 50% being a good rule of thumb. Since 50% of the cell is saturated fat, makes since 50% of what we take in oughta be usually.

Stay healthy
Jeff

RawNut

11-12-2006, 04:13 PM

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 04:36 PM

Heyya craig,

Ever noticed the average american (and i would guess others) gets ALOT of carbs. Granted they are not raw, but they still get alot of carbs. If carbs were sufficient to provided all the needed saturated fats and such we would not be seeing so many of the deficiencies that plague are modern eaters. yet we do see these issues. And disease can only flourish when bacteria mutates and cells get unhealthy, which doesnt happen when they are properlly formed with plenty of saturated fats.

Hence while I think carbs can shore up SOME of the difference, they clearly cannot make up all the difference. Also over indulgence of ANY one thing isnt healthy. Too much fruit can leach minerals and lead to osteop and calcium and mineral deficiencies. (which then lead to ALOT of problems)
Too much green food can actually store up too much beta car. whicg leads to problems. Too much meat (which can also be transformed to carbs etc) can lead to over acidity etc. The list goes on and on.

We need to feed our bodies in balnce to keep a harmonius tissue Ph (which varies for all individuals what foods will do that) and make our body function with ease. If the body NEEDS saturated fats, and it does, why make it expend the extra energy and minerals etc to make this transformation? Just giving the body basic needed raw stuffs will make our energy levels that much better and healing that much faster.

A good example...a car CAN run on low octane fumes and turn it into energy, but it gums up the system and isnt efficient. Give a car a high octane fuel designed for that function and it will purr. Our bodies are the same.

God Bless ya
jeff

Missrawdiva

11-12-2006, 05:31 PM

Also, a good source of fat which people forget out are HEMPSEEDS! I eat hemp butter (homemade ofcourse!) every morning! It has 45 percent fat!! And it is a proven fact that coconut oil which is also high in fat, will actually speed up the metabolism and help you to loose weight.
ok.. just my 2cents!

wisslewj

11-12-2006, 05:43 PM

mmmmmmmm....homemade hemp butter!!! :)

whens lunch i will be there!!! :P

Sharon in Colorado

11-12-2006, 11:15 PM

When I had mentioned that raw fooders initially take in more fat, was because I believe it was in place of the heavy feeling that cooked food gives. I don't think that 50% calories through fat in the long term is terribly healthy - as too much fat can inhibit many of the body's processes.

It is true that certain raw food diets can take in much more fat than cooked.

On cooked most of the calories come through simple and complex although processed carbs. Think of bread, pasta, rice, potatoes etc. which are eaten so heavily on the standard cooked diet.

But on the raw diet, because cooked starches and grains are to be avoided, many times the diet swings right off to denser 'raw' foods such as nuts and the heavier recipes, instead of replacing cooked carbs for natural whole plant carbs (fruit).

This tends to be necessary in order to satisfy stomach and mind, and is more of an emotional necessity and in time a fresher, lighter diet with less fat and in less concentrated forms is what many will gravitate toward.

Kerilyn

11-12-2006, 11:58 PM

ok, so coconut oil... how do you consume it on a raw diet. I am quite new.. just a few months, I don't make any recipes- just fruit, salads and green smoothies and can't think of how I would get in coconut oil besides staight off the spoon and I can't do that... When I use to eat SAD I would make toast in the morning and would spread coconut oil and honey on it...but now what?! And how much coconut oil are we talkin' about!? One more thing- what about dehydrated coconut flakes- I can snack on those by the cup full...YUMMMM : )

misslinda

11-13-2006, 12:33 AM

hmmm. I'm not a big fan of supplemeting with fats/oils. If I happen to crave an avacado so be it but I do not make it an effort to add it in unless it's orders by the inner voice. There are trivial amounts of fats in fruits too. ;)

Revvell

11-13-2006, 07:57 AM

Put it in your smoothies.

ok, so coconut oil... how do you consume it on a raw diet. I am quite new.. just a few months, I don't make any recipes- just fruit, salads and green smoothies and can't think of how I would get in coconut oil besides staight off the spoon and I can't do that... When I use to eat SAD I would make toast in the morning and would spread coconut oil and honey on it...but now what?! And how much coconut oil are we talkin' about!? One more thing- what about dehydrated coconut flakes- I can snack on those by the cup full...YUMMMM : )

Vandy

11-13-2006, 08:30 AM

why not just eat the whole food? Why eat the coconut oil and not the coconut? You are increasing your chances of losing nutrients, raw nutrients, through such a process.

Personally, I go for the whole food... I don't like the thought that man has "modified" our food. Why no just eat the whole fruit? So many things can get lost in the process, especially the taste.

Personally, I agree that balance is good, but that can only be determined by the individual. We get everything we need from whole, fresh, ripe, organic, and raw vegan foods. This site supports those in their journey to achieve health in this manner...

Sharon in Colorado

11-13-2006, 09:32 AM

The one time I put coconut oil in the families smoothies, there was a lot of music going on, of the gassy variety.

As Vandy mentioned, eating your food whole will give you fat, in its natural whole source. You don't need extracted, concentrated processed pure fat since you are already getting fat naturally.

JinxieKat

11-13-2006, 01:47 PM

Kerilyn,
One smoothie that comes to mind is one found on greenchefs (www.gliving.tv/greenchefs) for the chocolate banana smoothie by indulge. Hmm.. I think I'm going to have one for dinner tonight. Delish!

Jinx

LightLover

11-14-2006, 11:07 AM

I don't get the fuss over saturated fat. We don't even need any kind of other fat to make it. Our bodies make all we need out of carbohydrates. No one who gets enough carbs in the diet should need to supplement with saturated fat.

Craig

* I always thought there are no essential carbohydrates (like fats and aminoacids)

* but when you can make saturated fats.. out of these carbohydrates
* you can say that the carbohydrates have become essential and the
saturated fats have become non-essential
* but if you don't eat enough carbohydrates a saturated fat intake becomes essential.

just to keep it complex.. :)

LL

LightLover

11-14-2006, 11:14 AM

wisslewj, I can follow you at this point: often I read that we don't need a certain fat or so, because our body can make it by itself. (transformation)

Don't we forget that this is costing energy etc...?

We always say that digesting is costing to much energy, and that we should eat in a way that digestion goes easy, but I never read that we should eat as complete as possible in order to avoid all this transformations (from
one nutrient into another) and to avoid energyloss, which can't be used for healing. So your story of eating saturated fats makes sense to me.
But a little problem is that overall these come not in whoole foods.

Any opinions...?

LL

LightLover

11-14-2006, 11:18 AM

LightLover

11-14-2006, 11:22 AM

* Another point: the vieuw we only need to eat essential fat's is coming from the SAD world.

The reason is, that the typical "rawfood-arguments", that you have to
try to keep the energycosts of all bodyprocesses as low as possible
(so: not to much nutrient-transformations in your body, but direct supply) is not known in the sadworld.

LL

wisslewj

11-15-2006, 12:31 AM

Light,

well I am sure you know that some of these saturated fats come in lots of non vegan raw whole foods. However, I have found coconut oil to be superb as a "whole saturated fat" goes for those on a strict vegan diet. Even though my wife and I are not totally vegan, we use about 1 jar of coconut oil about every week and a half!! Its good stuff lol.

In regard to EFA's I have found we need about 4% of our diet as balanced EFA's. To be honest, other then flax seeds I am not aware of any good whole food vegan sources. (There are sources, but many nuts/seeds contain so many inhibitors and anti nutrients that they need to be soaked to eat. I am not sure what this does to the fat content, ie it oxidizes it all or not?)

I have found from expeience that so long as the fat is raw, digestions is still easy and the energy given far outweighs the energy to digest. What I do like is that since digestion is slow, having enough fat in the diet makes me full all day. I only eat twice a day now compared to the 6 times a day I felt I needed to eat on high fruit/low fat and I have tons of energy.

Also, and many dont realize this, the body is REALLY efficient. It can use proteins, fats, and carbs and turn em into each other as need be. (if biology memeory serves me, only protein isnt "made" from the others, it must be consumed as needed) So one guy may thrive on high protein, another on carbs and still another on fats. Personally, from what I have seen it is genetics (anscestory) that determines what will be best for each. (as well as a myriad of other factors) But point is, we are all different inside!

Anyway, its what works for me, and frankly thats what its all about--what works for each person! :)

Vandy--I agree I prefer the whole food myself as well, but as coconut oil is a fermented food, it is still raw and alive. I was cracking open a coconut a day in the summer, but now the store just doesnt have enough for me! :P

Jeff

RawNut

11-15-2006, 01:42 AM

LightLover,

* I always thought there are no essential carbohydrates (like fats and aminoacids)

They are essential in that everyone needs them for energy.

* but when you can make saturated fats.. out of these carbohydrates

Whenever you need them...

* you can say that the carbohydrates have become essential and the
saturated fats have become non-essential

I didn't say that...but, yes! It's always been that way.

* but if you don't eat enough carbohydrates a saturated fat intake becomes essential.

If you don't eat enough carbohydrates or calories period, you aren't getting enough of anything!

Craig

LightLover

11-15-2006, 02:49 PM

Reactions to quote's of Wissle:

well I am sure you know that some of these saturated fats come in lots of non vegan raw whole foods.
---
* No! I don't agree. There are enough superior vegan saturated fats
to let forget the animal saturated fats
---

In regard to EFA's I have found we need about 4% of our diet as balanced EFA's. To be honest, other then flax seeds I am not aware of any good whole food vegan sources. am not sure what this does to the fat content, ie it oxidizes it all or not?)
---
* What are your thoughts/objections about hempseed, and chiaseed?
---

Vandy--I agree I prefer the whole food myself as well, but as coconut oil is a fermented food, it is still raw and alive. I was cracking open a coconut a day in the summer, but now the store just doesnt have enough for me! :P
--
* the same for red palm oil: not available as a whole food
--

* Wissle, what do you think: should we eat every different fat directly, in order to avoid the energyloss of transforming one fat in to another, or not?

LL

LightLover

11-15-2006, 02:58 PM

Quoting rawnut:

They are essential in that everyone needs them for energy.

* carbohydrates are not a unique source of energy, that's why they are not essential. They are not unique in anyway, in any function.
And being unique is the criterium for being essential. Or not..?
---
but when you can make saturated fats.. out of these carbohydrates

Whenever you need them...
---
* You do need them!. many cellmembranes are flexible, because they are formed out of saturated fat (braincells!) when not saturated fat available
these cellsmembranes will become rigid and stiff
---
but if you don't eat enough carbohydrates a saturated fat intake becomes essential.

If you don't eat enough carbohydrates or calories period, you aren't getting enough of anything!
---
* see above: there is still no argument for carbohydrates to be essential.
(I don't say they have to be avoid at all, I only say they are not essential
in the way that there is not a single performance they have, which can't be fulfilled by other nutrients)

---

Wissle, be free to join also in this discussion!

LL