genetic disorders

[dreday]

Hi i am new to raw food so i don't really know what to expect, but i was wondering if anybody on here has overcome any genetically inherited disorders by eating raw food. I've read some threads about reversing grey hair and stopping hairloss, but does this happen for people who have inherited the condition?

[Gosia]

Kristin , who suffered from keratoconous, which is considered to be a genetic condition, significantly improved her eyesight:
http://www.hometown.aol.com/kma513/raw.html

Gosia

[alex]

Gray hair and hair that is falling out is not necessarily genetic. Many conditions have a genetic component or predisposition which can be over come through lifestyle changes.

If you have something like Down's Syndrome (three chromosome 21's) it is unlikely that diet will have much if any effect.

There is a whole emerging field of study which is fascinating called: epigenetics, part of which states that what we eat effects our genetic makeup and can also be passed on to subsequent generations - ie. is inheritable.


alex

[Lay-Lay]

I have reversed several things I was told I inherited through genetics such as:

Obesity
currently overcoming many female related illnesses (through raw foods and acupuncture)
Blood pressure
Migraines
Allergies
Double Chin

[maryonherway]

I have had a condition on my upper arms and other parts of my body since 6th grade (I'm now 53) that causes little bumps on the skin. They can get like little pimples sometimes, but mostly just sit there and itch if my skin gets dry. The dermatologists have told me that this is genetic, 80% of Americans have them, no cure for them, and I'd have them all my life - although they said using a loofah and letting my arms get tan would help, but not cure them. Of course, the tanning would increase my chances of skin cancer, so he didn't recommend it. It has to do with the skin not sloughing off they way it should.... anyway, I noticed just today that they are almost gone on my left arm and getting better on the right arm! I was talking with my son, who's been eating well waaaay longer than I and his have gone away. Very cool! I always felt uncomfortable in sleevless tops and maybe by next summer they'll be gone completely. Other changes I've noticed:

weight loss
no more IBS
no more hemorroids
skin is generally better - better color, less breakouts, I've 'got the glow!'
more energy
my knees don't hurt all day, every day (they'd hurt since highschool!)
no bleeding gums when I went to the dentist for a cleaning
gum pockets are reduced in size
no more morning breath
no groggy feeling after meals
blood sugar has stablized

Hmmm, there's probably more that I can't think of right now. But this is a pretty good list after only 100 days! I'm impressed!

[mershwista]

Don't expect anything amazing....I've done the raw thing for about 5 months, and I can barely notice any improvements in anything. I feel slightly more energetic and fresh, but I still struggle with the same old depression and skin problems as before. You have to do it because you want to, not because you're expecting it to perform miracles.

[alex]

mershwista:

If raw has not helped you much than I would suggest that you go see a doctor who specializes in environmental medicine.

Also please read: Toxic or Tired by Sherry A. Rogers

Hope this helps


Alex

[mershwista]

Believe me, that doesn't help either. I've literally tried EVERYTHING. You name it, I can tell you my bad experience with it. Some problems just never go away. I have just come to accept this and deal with it the best I can.

[Shmoopie]

It's been suggested by some in the natural health field that gray hair is actually a condition of being too acidic. It makes sense when you think about that and then see people on the raw diet getting their hair color back. They're not acidic anymore.

I wonder about what we call "hereditary" and/or "genetic" these days. They say heart attacks and blood pressure problems, etc run in the family and are therefore "genetic". Doesn't it just make more sense, and seem less complicated that we are monkey-see-monkey-do creatures? We eat what we're raised to eat. We believe "healthy" is what we're taught is healthy as children by our parents (like someone mentioned the other day about drinking pop when your stomach is upset.). Obviously, there are those of us who question these things and are open enough to learn differently and DO differently later in life, but for a lot of people, that's not the case at all.

My boyfriend is a perfect example of this. His father had a heart attack at around age 55. He's 61 now but looks much older than that. He's got lupus, and who knows what else. Well, on a family type vacation that we went on over the summer, his dad actually told me that he doesn't drink water because he gets enough water from his coffee, and that he doesn't eat vegetables because that's "rabbit food" :eek: . So his health problems are really no surprise. And then there's my boyfriend who was raised by this man, and who ate the food that this man cooked, as well as what his mother taught/cooked for him, which is less off the wall, but otherwise not much different. So my boyfriend has eczema, severe asthma, severe allergies, and would no doubt be on his way to a very early heart attack if he wasn't open to making changes...thank God for him being open and willing to make necessary changes. Before we really started talking about these things, I don't think that his diet choices were anything that he even considered. Most of America is raised to believe that "home-cooked meals" of meat, potatoes, and milk (occasionaly with a canned, heated vegetable), and some bread or rolls is a healthy meal. And while doctors make half-attempts at stressing the vegetables, they don't make it very clear as to why it's necessary, and the food pyramid is a horrible disaster, but a guide that people trust nonetheless.

Anyway, that might be a lot of babbling lol. But I think that a lot of our "genetic" diseases aren't genetic at all. It's just that we follow in our families footsteps a lot of times, and we make unhealthy choices. Thoughts?

[rawnora]

Believe me, that doesn't help either. I've literally tried EVERYTHING. You name it, I can tell you my bad experience with it. Some problems just never go away. I have just come to accept this and deal with it the best I can.

Mershwista,
It is the extremely rare case of disease that does not reverse itself when the causes are removed, especially skin issues and depression, which are, respectively, extraordinary elimination and body energy conservation. These are both related to long-standing toxicosis, which takes time to clean out. Five months may seem like a long time if you look at this way of living as something you're doing short-term to fix a problem. If you look at it as the way you're going to live for the rest of your life, it's no time at all. How fast healing happens depends on so many different factors that it's impossible to say why you haven't noticed more improvement in 5 months but even if you were eating optimally (which you most likely aren't), long-standing problems can take much longer to resolve. It doesn't mean you have to accept sickness, it just means you have to be patient while your body does its best to recover from the damage inflicted by your previous lifestyle.

Happy healing,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[mershwista]

I've been a health freak for a long time and don't really think it's due to being "toxic"...I was vegan long before I went raw, and I frequently did fasts and cleanses. And EVERY female in my family is affected by the depression and skin issues. It doesn't make sense to say it's something specifically wrong with my life and the way I've been living it. I've done juice fasts, water fasts, herbal cleanses, various herbs, homeopathic whatnot, exercise therapy, alkaline dieting, traditional medicine, sessions with psychologists, now raw foods, essential oils, teas, gluten-free, low-sugar, low-fat, low-carb, low glycemic index, high carb, high protein, reiki, yoga, meditation, spiritual healing, etc, etc, etc.

Somehow I just think it makes sense to accept that I will always be depressed.

By the way, that is not a complete list.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I haven't read it, but I heard of a book called "Depression free for life" by Dr. Gabriel Cousens. Have you heard of it?

[mershwista]

No, I haven't...I'll look for it, though. Thanks.

[michigan roman]

It's been suggested by some in the natural health field that gray hair is actually a condition of being too acidic. It makes sense when you think about that and then see people on the raw diet getting their hair color back. They're not acidic anymore.

I wonder about what we call "hereditary" and/or "genetic" these days. They say heart attacks and blood pressure problems, etc run in the family and are therefore "genetic". Doesn't it just make more sense, and seem less complicated that we are monkey-see-monkey-do creatures? We eat what we're raised to eat. We believe "healthy" is what we're taught is healthy as children by our parents (like someone mentioned the other day about drinking pop when your stomach is upset.). Obviously, there are those of us who question these things and are open enough to learn differently and DO differently later in life, but for a lot of people, that's not the case at all.

My boyfriend is a perfect example of this. His father had a heart attack at around age 55. He's 61 now but looks much older than that. He's got lupus, and who knows what else. Well, on a family type vacation that we went on over the summer, his dad actually told me that he doesn't drink water because he gets enough water from his coffee, and that he doesn't eat vegetables because that's "rabbit food" :eek: . So his health problems are really no surprise. And then there's my boyfriend who was raised by this man, and who ate the food that this man cooked, as well as what his mother taught/cooked for him, which is less off the wall, but otherwise not much different. So my boyfriend has eczema, severe asthma, severe allergies, and would no doubt be on his way to a very early heart attack if he wasn't open to making changes...thank God for him being open and willing to make necessary changes. Before we really started talking about these things, I don't think that his diet choices were anything that he even considered. Most of America is raised to believe that "home-cooked meals" of meat, potatoes, and milk (occasionaly with a canned, heated vegetable), and some bread or rolls is a healthy meal. And while doctors make half-attempts at stressing the vegetables, they don't make it very clear as to why it's necessary, and the food pyramid is a horrible disaster, but a guide that people trust nonetheless.

Anyway, that might be a lot of babbling lol. But I think that a lot of our "genetic" diseases aren't genetic at all. It's just that we follow in our families footsteps a lot of times, and we make unhealthy choices. Thoughts?


TOTALLY AGREE with you schmoopie .

its like aquired bad habits not genetics .

and the food pyramids a disaster thats trusted , and the docs dont explain why the vegis are needed , and everyone thinx that meat potato bread etc is a perfect meal .

you werent babbling at all

[rawnora]

To answer the question started by this thread, there are no genetic disorders. Even birth defects aren't really inherited, they are caused by the mother's deleterious health practices during gestation. The only genetic links in disease are inherited weaknesses and learned behaviors. Inherited weakness will determine WHERE in the body disease will strike, but it will not cause disease on its own. Families teach each other how to eat and live, and that's another factor in how certain diseases seem to run in families. We are each the sole creators of our own diseases, there is no escaping it.

Mershwista,
I was vegan and a 'health seeker' before I went raw, too, for 13 years. I'm still healing from it. Although a vegan diet is better than the SAD, it also produces disease. Healing is slow, but if you haven't gotten the improvements you're looking for in 5 months, perhaps you need to change what you're doing. If you believe that those practices you mentioned are healthy (many of them are actually quite harmful), this indicates you haven't yet found the full truth about how to be healthy. This will hold you back.

Although it takes time for the body to reverse long-standing problems, after 5 months of healthful living you should at least be getting glimpses of what it's like to be free of them. If you're not, there's a reason and it has nothing to do with genetics. Nobody needs to accept being sick, especially with problems like skin issues and depression. I can help, if you're interested.

Sincere best wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[mershwista]

People who don't believe in genetic problems are the ones who don't suffer from them. No, I don't believe all those practices were healthy, but my point is that I've tried everything, and each one of them, like raw foods, promised improvement and gave none. There is no reason to believe raw foods is any different...especially when while raw, I'm abnormally jittery and often more irritable than I remember being before. I feel apathetic all the time. I wish people would stop assuming that what works for them is what works for everyone, because everyone is different and responds to different things. I don't doubt that raw foods has help a lot of people. It's also devastated a lot of people. You just don't see them on this board singing its praises because they would have no reason to associate with a community furthering a "healing" practice that made them sick.

And like it or not, science has beyond proved that certain tendencies and characteristics get passed down with the DNA. Can you heal them? I think one can. It's just a matter of finding out what works best for each person.

[greengoddess]

Mershwista, my heart goes out to you because I hear your pain and empathize with your frustration. I've been raw for just over a year now, having also paid close attention to my health for many years and was also raised by a VERY health conscious mother. In the last couple of months I have begun a battle with eczema that had its beginnings from a very small wound on the back of my hand. The ND advised me that I was genetically predisposed to it (my mom was covered with weeping eczema before she died) but that didn't mean that it couldn't be conquered although it would likely take a few months. I have been on the candida diet and am not allowed any grains, dried fruit, tropical fruit, etc. and must also take some specific vitamins to help heal the skin. That was pretty devastating, enjoying the raw food diet as I do. I have been sticking to the ND's orders to the letter because I just want to be well again. It is very discouraging when you believe you are doing the absolute best thing for your body and something like this still happens. So hang in there. I believe there is a remedy for everything. The difficult part can be discovering what that is.

[rawnora]

People who don't believe in genetic problems are the ones who don't suffer from them. No, I don't believe all those practices were healthy, but my point is that I've tried everything, and each one of them, like raw foods, promised improvement and gave none. There is no reason to believe raw foods is any different...especially when while raw, I'm abnormally jittery and often more irritable than I remember being before. I feel apathetic all the time. I wish people would stop assuming that what works for them is what works for everyone, because everyone is different and responds to different things. I don't doubt that raw foods has help a lot of people. It's also devastated a lot of people. You just don't see them on this board singing its praises because they would have no reason to associate with a community furthering a "healing" practice that made them sick.

And like it or not, science has beyond proved that certain tendencies and characteristics get passed down with the DNA. Can you heal them? I think one can. It's just a matter of finding out what works best for each person.


To "believe" anything is to confess ignorance, because a belief is nothing but an unconfirmed idea. It requires no evidence. Beliefs can cause us to stay sick, if we don't know the difference between belief and knowledge. People believe that chemotherapy cures cancer, for example. That's a belief that can kill. There are harmful beliefs that are commonly embraced by the raw food community as well, such as that supplementing is necessary, colonics hasten healing, juicing is better than eating whole foods, oils/garlic/vinegar/salt are healthy human food, the body can be "cleansed" by ingesting harmful substances, ad infinitum.

"Tendencies and characteristics" are inherited but these do not cause disease. Unhealthful living practices do. Tendencies and characteristics do not require healing. In any event, I can't heal anything and neither can anyone else. Only the body can heal itself, and only if it is given the proper conditions.

Eating raw, biologically-appropriate food has never "devastated" anyone. That's another example of a belief, and a very harmful one.

Disease is subject to the universal law of cause and effect. It may seem to you like you've tried everything but I guarantee that you have not tried the one thing that works in every case -- removing the cause.

My offer to help you stands, free of charge. If you want to get well, all you need to do is suspend your beliefs long enough for us to work together to identify the mistakes you're making, and be willing to stop making them. If replacing your harmful practices with healthy ones doesn't work, you can always go back to believing you'll never be well. We all make mistakes. I made them too, and I'd probably still be making them if I hadn't had someone showing me the way. You're presumably making a lot of sacrifices to be raw. Why not reap the benefits?

Kind wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[Sharon in Colorado]

I have a genetic cholesterol disorder, that can be controlled through the proper environment. It may always be higher than average, but it will be the best it can be in the right circumstances.

When you give the disease/disorder the absolute best environment, the body will perform at its best.

[dreday]

rawnora,
I wrote you an email about getting some help. Let me know if you think that you can. I sent it to the email you gave on your profile. thanks

[mershwista]

I don't deny that those things can be cured...I think I already made that clear. But it's quite possible that for an individual person, the cure will never be found for whatever that person is suffering from.

And yes, believe it or not, I know people who have gotten really sick and/or developed eating disorders from a raw foods diet who did NOT have those problems before.

Your faith is raw foods is, as all the other things you mentioned, a belief--an unconfirmed idea.

I believe in very little and do the best that I can with the things that seem logically to me as if they'd make the most sense, even if only in theory.

Rawnora, sounds like raw foods has helped you. Great. It really hasn't helped me, at least not in the area of depression.

Yes, I've been raw for about 5 months. No, I haven't really reaped any benefits. In fact, it just makes it so that I can never eat lunch with friends or relly do anything social at all because I can't get through a meal without someone telling me they're worried about my health, noting that I'm still depressed as ever, and telling me I should see a psychiatrist about anorexia.

And so...I see really no reason to stay 100% raw. In fact, I'm weaning myself off of it little by little, as I see no sense in continuing with something that takes up lots of time, effort, and money but offers no benefits. I will probably stay mostly raw, just because the idea makes logical sense to me, and I do like the way it feels to eat something fresh instead of something dead.

And then I can just add this to the list of things that didn't help me. It was a worth a shot, and I see now that it is no different than anything else.

[rawnora]

Mershwista, my heart goes out to you because I hear your pain and empathize with your frustration. I've been raw for just over a year now, having also paid close attention to my health for many years and was also raised by a VERY health conscious mother. In the last couple of months I have begun a battle with eczema that had its beginnings from a very small wound on the back of my hand. The ND advised me that I was genetically predisposed to it (my mom was covered with weeping eczema before she died) but that didn't mean that it couldn't be conquered although it would likely take a few months. I have been on the candida diet and am not allowed any grains, dried fruit, tropical fruit, etc. and must also take some specific vitamins to help heal the skin. That was pretty devastating, enjoying the raw food diet as I do. I have been sticking to the ND's orders to the letter because I just want to be well again. It is very discouraging when you believe you are doing the absolute best thing for your body and something like this still happens. So hang in there. I believe there is a remedy for everything. The difficult part can be discovering what that is.


Yes, there is a remedy for everything. It's called "removal of cause". Unfortunately, NDs most often do not help people remove the cause of their sickness, because they are almost as ignorant about the principles of health as their allopathic counterparts. Really the only difference between the two is that allopaths stop symptoms with synthetic substances, and naturopaths stop them with herbs. Stopping symptoms is not the answer. Removal of cause is.

Grains and dried fruit are not necessary for human health but tropical fruits are the essence of life for a tropical species such as ours. Eating fruit does not cause candida symptoms or eczema. Human beings are fruit eaters, every single one of us. This is the first fact that must be known by anyone calling him/herself a health professional, otherwise that person will never be able to identify the cause of disease.

Best of luck to you.

Warm regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[mershwista]

I notice you criticize my belief that I will never be well...why should I believe otherwise? Generally, when I am solving a problem and cannot find a solution, there IS none. It works that way in math. It works that way in the real world. Why should I continue to have faith that there will be a solution? The pattern is: try something new to fix it, watch it not work. It would be illogical to believe that things will ever happen differently.

But you "believe" in raw foods. So according to your definition, you're confessing ignorance...

And by the way, I went into this whole raw mess truly believing it would heal me.

It didn't. Shows that I was obviously ignorant, to think that it ever would.

Attitude has nothing to do with outcome.

I'm a musician, and I sincerely believe, going into any audition, that I will fail the audition and not make it in. Such has not been the case, and in believing I'll fail, I am then pleasantly surprised when I am, in fact, successful.

Greengoddess, it's good to know I'm not the only one who knows what it's like to have a seemingly incorrigible problem. Glad someone understands.

[mershwista]

Rawnora: "Human beings are fruit eaters, every single one of us. This is the first fact that must be known by anyone calling him/herself a health professional, otherwise that person will never be able to identify the cause of disease. "

I took a mostly fruitarian approach to raw when I started. It was only recently that I realized that the reason I was so jittery and anxious all the time was because I was eating too much fruit. So, I stopped, and I was back to my normal amount of anxiety.

[Queenie]

Removal of the cause might be the answer, but I keep asking myself what the people on this board have against the use of herbals to expedite healing? Herbs are plant foods that have been dried, and taking concentrated doses of certain plant foods with healing properties can't hurt and might help. What's with this fear of shamanism here? You can remove the cause - probably the most effective way to treat a disease - and also use herbs. After all, they're plants. What is wrong with plants?

As for the genetic thing. I have a huge amount of premature gray hair and so does my mother. I've come to think that it's not genetic, but genes mutate over time due to bad lifestyle choices. I don't think I would have got the "gene" if I had not been a sugar addict. My mother and I are both carb addicts (this creates an acidic condition). My arthritis (also an acidic condition) goes away on the raw diet. So heredity is a very flexible concept. Eating habits run in families! As do emotional baggage and coping mechanisms... hence my sugar addiction.

I think that admitting you're stuck with the depression is a two-edged sword. On one hand, acceptance can be a good thing. On the other, this sounds like an admission of defeat. I don't agree with some people that diet alone is enough. I used flower essences (guided by a practitioner) for my depression and it's pretty much permanently resolved, with an occasional flare-up - regardless of what I eat. So there is always a way, but stay with the raw diet. It's not worth going back to cooked. :p

[Queenie]

Rawnora: "Human beings are fruit eaters, every single one of us. This is the first fact that must be known by anyone calling him/herself a health professional, otherwise that person will never be able to identify the cause of disease. "

I took a mostly fruitarian approach to raw when I started. It was only recently that I realized that the reason I was so jittery and anxious all the time was because I was eating too much fruit. So, I stopped, and I was back to my normal amount of anxiety.


The fruit diet is an almost all sugar diet! Not a good choice except for a fast! hang in there.

[rawnora]

Queenie,
Herbs do not act on the body, the body acts on them. That is, when an herb is introduced to the body and a symptom stops, it's the body redirecting its energy to the elimination of the herb. Herbs are really no different than drugs in this regard, except that they do less additional damage than drugs. If a person is in great pain and is not able to function and/or sleep, an herbal remedy might bring some relief (altho less toxic methods should always be tried first) but it is always an impediment to healing. Only the body can heal itself. If cause is removed, its effects will go away once the body has a chance to regenerate and repair the damage. Herbs absolutely can hurt, and to the extent that they stop the body from healing, this is exactly what they do. The human body's capacity for healing itself came about long before humans started experiencing disease and discovered that certain herbs stop certain symptoms. Anything that stops a symptom, also stops healing or at least impedes it.

Waste accumulating in the body is the cause of all disease. No other influence in our lives besides what we eat contributes more to the production of waste in our bodies, by a huge margin. Diet isn't the only area we need to attend to, obviously, but it has the most potential for reversing disease.

Symptoms like jitteriness, shakiness, spaciness, etc., are sometimes felt when a person eats a mostly fruit diet not because fruit is not perfect human food but because fruit is so easily digested that the body has plenty of energy left over to cleanse stored toxic matter. If these symptoms are very unpleasant, a person can supplement the diet with fats and/or greens, or combinations of foods, which will have the effect of slowing down cleansing. Eventually, if a person keeps improving his/her diet, purification will proceed to such a degree that these symptoms will not be felt at all. I used to be hypoglycemic and never went anywhere without food because I was terrified of becoming 'hungry'. I still feel those feelings sometimes but not nearly to the extent that I used to, and I don't have to take food with me wherever I go. I can go many hours without food and not suffer.

Flower essences do not 'permanently resolve' disease. The symptoms will return when you stop taking the flower essences. The only thing that will permanently resolve depression is removal of cause, and patience. I have an essay written by a raw friend who was formerly clinically depressed and medicated. In the article he writes about the causes of depression and how it can easily be overcome. He's been 100% raw (high fruit) for 17 years. I'd be happy to send it to anyone who's interested.

Best regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[Queenie]

I simply do not agree! Herbs are concentrated plants. It's like saying that if we don't eat, then we will heal ourselves because digestion slows healing, which it does. We should, by that logic, stop eating. Seriously, if some foods heal and some kill, then why are you claiming that "herbs" only mask disease? Do you even know anything about them? Nettles and alfalfa, for example, heal with their high quantities of nutrients. They fill in the gaps, not "mask symptoms." This is so ridiculous.

I used flower essences for depression and the depression is more or less permanently resolved. No one can tell me otherwise. How dare you or anyone tell me that my experience isn't valid?

There is no ONE answer! When I go on the discussion boards, I invariably run into this weird fear of everything that isn't the raw diet alone. I completely disagree with you and I think people who think that there is only ONE answer to EVERYTHING are like crazy religious fanatics.

You can reply and try to beat me down again, but I'll continue to disagree with you and I will continue to argue that there are MANY healing modalities and the raw foods do not corner the market. I'm very pro-raw food but you do not have the final say on this topic; there are plenty of very well-informed and intelligent people who will disagree with you as I do. I will not be told that I do not know what I am talking about, because I DO.

Indeed! Sheesh!

[rawnora]

I'm grateful for the opportunity to offer the following article for those who are interested in learning more about the negative effects of herb usage. Enjoy. :)
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

The Myth Of Herbs
by TC Fry

The woman was proudly showing me the inside of her medicine cabinet:
"See? No pills, bottles of medicine, drugs or anything! I got rid of them all. I don't trust doctors or prescription medicines. I take only natural things."
She reached inside the cabinet and started pulling out capsules, tinctures, and powders.
"This is peppermint oil," she told me. "I use it instead of an antacid for stomach upset. I've got these white willow bark pills for headaches so I won't need aspirin. I used to take tranquilizers, but now I can use these valerian root extracts to make me relaxed. I just use herbs now when I'm sick. I don't buy anything from a drugstore."
"That's too bad," I said.
She looked shocked. "Why? Because I don't buy drugs anymore?"
"No," I replied, "it's too bad you're still poisoning yourself with drugs—that's what all these herbs are. They may grow wild and naturally, but they're just as deadly as those pills with the unpronounceable names that the pharmacist sells you."

Many people can be convinced about the danger of prescription and over-the-counter drugs. They, or people they know, have often suffered side effects from drugs sold as cures. Yet these same people are often amazed that herbs too are equally useless and dangerous in restoring health.

Herbs have an undeserved reputation as "natural," "organic," "powerful," and "ancient." They grow out of the earth—they must be okay, these people reason. Such people may violently distrust bottles of medicines and pills sold by drugstores, but they will dutifully swallow capsule after capsule that contains the powdered remains of some unfamilar plant.

This article is to help you understand why herbs are not harmless; why they are not safe; why they should not be used. So many myths surround herbs, herb taking, and herbalists that the air must be cleared.

What Is an Herb?

Most of us have a pretty good idea what an herb is. We generally think of some wild plant that tastes somewhat bad which is used in small amounts for some ailment or the other.

There may be some confusion, however, between herbs and vegetables, or other edible plants. For example, lettuce and salad vegetables are sometimes called "herbs." Parsley, which may be eaten occasionally with other vegetables, is classified as an herb. Animals, such as horses and cows, which eat primarily grass and greens are called herbivores or herb eaters.

Even the dictionary is no help in distinguishing herbs from vegetables. One definition of an herb is that it is a "seed plant which dies to the ground at the end of a season." This would mean that lettuce, cabbage, and indeed, almost all garden vegetables, could be classified as herbs. Another definition of an herb is that it's a "plant or plant part which is valued for its medicinal or savory properties."

Now we can see the two sides of an herb. It can either be a food (like a salad vegetable) or it can be a drug or a seasoning. For this lesson, an herb will not be considered as a food or as a salad vegetable. If it is safe to eat, a plant is classified as a food. If it has toxic, or "medicinal" properties, then it is classified as a drug.

This lesson is concerned chiefly with the herb as a drug. Mention will be made of herbs as foods, and whether they are proper nourishment for humans.

Warning: Herbs May Be Dangerous To Your Health!

Some people may not believe that herbs can have any effect in keeping us well and healthy, but few people actually consider herbs to be harmful. Herbs are plants and grow naturally, and it seems that only people like the FDA and AMA have anything "bad" to say about these substances. But herbs are not only ineffective in producing health, they poison the body and may create serious complications in the user of such plants.

All herbs contain poisonous volatile oils and alkaloids. All herbs are fatal when taken in large enough doses. Even moderate amounts of certain herbs can cause vomiting, diarrhea, fever, headaches, and spontaneous abortions.

Many people do not realize that the herbs they take are in fact poisoning them. The reason? Herbs are taken in small amounts—usually small enough not to occasion a serious and painful reaction, but still enough to cause the body to react radically and expeditiously to eliminate them. These reactions by the body to eliminate the toxic substances found in herbs are taken as "proof" by herbalists that their potions are doing their job. A job is being done, all right, but the results are not always as advertised.

If herbs are not harmful, why must they be taken in such small amounts? Like pepper, spices, and condiments, herbs cannot be ingested in amounts larger than a tablespoon or so. Even more telling is the taste of herbs themselves. Almost without exception, herbs are bitter, strong, and foul tasting. This is a warning to the body not to eat such substances.

Very few people would chew and swallow a mouthful of an herb. They couldn't choke such a strong and bad tasting substance down. Instead, they usually grind and powder the herb until it can be stuffed into a capsule and slipped past the sense of taste which is the body's guardian against poisons and drugs.

If a food or substance cannot be enjoyed—if it does not have a pleasant taste—then it should never be eaten or ingested. Even a perverted sense of taste can protect a person from the foul poisons found in herbs. Yet with pills, capsules, and infusions, the herbalists have found ways to sneak a plant into the body that it would never relish or desire normally.

Still, people who are attracted to a natural way of life and diet defend herbs and their use. Maybe we should ask the question:

Are Herbs "Natural?"

Of course herbs are natural. They grow in every part of the world without cultivation. Unlike most fruits and vegetables, herbs have not been altered through selective planting or breeding. The herbs growing today are much the same as those that grew five thousand years ago. No one can argue that herbs are not natural plants. But, are they natural for man to eat and use?

The argument for herbs has been that since they grow everywhere, they must be good for something. We should be able to use these wild plants since they must be provided for us by nature or by a divine being.

One of the best known herbalists in America answers the question "why use herbs?" as follows:

"Herbs are nature's remedies, and they have been put here by an all-wise Creator. There is an herb for every disease that a human body can be afflicted with. Herbs were mentioned in the Bible, and much has been written about them all through history."

In the words of Dr. Herbert M. Shelton: "Such an argument is specious, false, unscientific, and absurd. It is not sustained by theory nor by results, neither by logic, or analogy, nor by experiment or experience."

Simply because a plant grows naturally does not mean that it was intended or ordained by a divine being (or nature) for our use. A great many plants grow all around us that are rank poisons. The tobacco plant has large and lovely green leaves. It certainly looks as if it would make a wonderful salad food. If you ate a salad of tobacco leaves, you would not live to regret it.

Animals in the wild refuse to eat many of the plants growing around them. Toxins and poisons are to be found in plants, just as are vitamins, minerals, amino acids, and so on. As Dr. Shelton has observed, "Many of the products of nature are unfit for the entrance into the human body."

If so many herbs taste so foul and have such detrimental effects on the body, then we might ask how the herbal practice ever got started in the first place.

The Origins of Herbal Drugging Practices

The herbalists and the medical profession which also derives many of its drugs from herbs have justified the use of such poisons by pointing to the practices of antiquity and primitive tribes.

"For thousands of years," one herbalist writes in his correspondence course, "herbs have been used in the treatment of disease. From the time of King Solomon, who was reputed to be the wisest man of his time, on down to Hippocrates, Galen, and through the Middle Ages to the present time, there have always been great and famous herbologists or botanical physicians."

We could also add that there have also always been fools and unwitting dupes who have fallen prey to this mumbo-jumbo about the "glorious" history of herbs.

The romantic picture of remote and ancient men who searched the landscape for herbs to cure mankind is a popular, but false one. Always the herbalist is glorified as a wise magic man that could divine the true nature of the wild plants around him. Actually, nothing could be farther from the truth.

The first herbalists were superstitious witch doctors and shamans who used these plants not for any healing virtues, but for magic rituals and ceremonies for sex and power. The herbs were used right along with snake eyes and frog skins to make magic potions. They were not used as curative agents, but as magical talismans.

Medical historians and students of herbology, however, seek to justify their drugging practices by pointing to the past uses of herbs by primitives as an "instinctive" use of such plants. Neither man nor animals will "instinctively" eat a plant that is full of poisons and toxins. It is very doubtful that any person living in nature would desire to eat a foul, bitter plant that causes the body to react vigorously to eliminate it.

The truth is that herbology, like circumcision, is a dark age ritual that has unjustifiably survived. The primitives had no more success when they used herbs for medical curing than they did when they performed circumcision on their youths to prevent masturbation, or whatever. Both herbs and circumcision are barbaric practices that are still with us in spite of an "enlightened" twentieth century.

The romanticizing of herbs and their effects as being "natural" or "primitive" and therefore established and accepted is a dangerous lie. Herbs are drugs and poisons. They cure nothing.

Why Herbs Can't "Cure"

People who believe in the curative powers of herbs think that any disease or ailment can be relieved by the ingestion of the proper herbs in the correct amounts. Some herbs are to be boiled and steeped.

Others need grinding and powdering. Some herbs are to be taken in combination with other herbs.

Some herbs must be taken alone to "work" properly.

There are dozens and dozens of books that list herbal formulas for every conceivable illness. No matter what bothers us, the herbalists have a list of plants we can take to "cure" ourselves. So simple and so appealing.

Every herb has its own healing properties, its own virtues, its own potencies. Reading a book on herbs is like reading an encyclopedia of diseases and cures. No wonder herbology is so seductive. We need do nothing to change our living habits to regain our health; we only need to take this or that herb in some amount or combination.

There is no curing power in any herb. All healing power resides in the tissues of the individual. An herb can cure nothing. Herbs, like all drugs and poisons, are inert substances. They perform no actions. They stimulate no healing. They remove no cause of illness. They cannot rebuild the body. They are inactive and incapable of initiating any constructive action within the body.

But herbs do "work" in a certain way. When they are introduced into the body, the vital organism attempts to expel these poisons as quickly as possible. The body protects itself from drugging and poisoning, whether these poisons come from a pharmacist's shelf or from nature.

These protective efforts by the body are misinterpreted as beneficial actions of the herbs. For example, the herb called mandrake has long been used for liver ailments. When ingested, mandrake causes vomiting, purging, and griping. The herbalists view these reactions as beneficial; they say that the mandrake is causing the body to clean itself out.

What is actually occurring is that the body is making a heroic effort to expel the mandrake by any avenue possible. The purging and griping are signs of a vital organism trying to eject a poisonous substance. It is not a "curing crisis" brought on by the herb.

Different herbs may occasion different bodily reactions. Fevers, sweating, diarrhea, increased or decreased circulation are all signs of a body trying to eliminate herbal toxins and are not indications that an herb is working some cure or the other.

Can Herbs Help At All?

The use of herbs is often defended because they are not as strong as chemically-derived medicines. In other words, they seem to do less harm than prescription drugs. But is this really true? Are herbs the lesser of two evils? And is there ever any reason they should be employed?

Even if herbs possessed no toxic or poisonous properties, they would still be dangerous. Why? Because the use of herbs, or any "curing" agent, simply perpetuates the ignorance that enslaves so many people.

Herbology promotes the idea of a "cure." As such, it does nothing to remove the true causes of disease and illness. Herbs deceive people. Many people think that by swallowing some plant or the other, they can improve their health. Such thinking can be dangerous.

For example, high-blood pressure is a very common ailment among Americans because of the tremendous amounts of salt they eat in their heavy meat and processed food diet. A vegetable alkaloid found in certain herbs called reserpine has been used to reduce blood pressure. Garlic, long touted as a wonder herb, is also a supposedly effective agent in reducing blood pressure.

What sometimes occurs is that people with high-blood pressure ingest garlic and other herbs to correct this condition. At the same time, however, they continue with their old diet and eat large amounts of salt.

When this happens, the symptom of high-blood pressure is hidden by the symptoms of the herbal poisoning. At the same time, the old habits and diet that kept the blood pressure high are not modified. The high-blood pressure is simply a signal by the body that something is wrong—like diet or lifestyle. By taking an herb for this symptom, nothing positive is being done; indeed, a poison has just been added to the body which it now must eliminate.

Herb taking, then, is simply symptom masking. In other words, a symptom of a diseased or disordered body is hidden by the eliminative efforts of the body to rid itself of the herbal toxins. The causes of the initial symptom remain, and indeed, continue the destruction of the body.

Garlic and other herbs may mask one symptom of a high-salt diet, but they can do nothing about the kidney damage and cellular destruction that also accompanies salt eating.

All pill and drug taking is dangerously deceptive, whether the drug comes from a plant or from a factory. The symptom-ridding approach to health is a short-ended one, and the bills for a disease-producing lifestyle always come due. Herbs and the symptom-repressing attitude toward health only deceive and delude the true health seeker.

Are Herbs Good as Food Supplements?

Not only are herbs promoted as cures and remedies, but they are often given as dietary supplements. Herbs often have a high concentration of minerals (usually iron, calcium, and trace elements.) Some have a high vitamin C content as well.

Because of this concentration of nutrients, herbs are also used as nutritional supplements. For example, there are herbal formulas that are reputed to have the proper mineral combination for building bones or increasing the red corpuscle content of the blood. Many people who dislike supplements made in a laboratory will use these herbal formulas to "improve" their diet.

In this case, the herb is being used as a concentrated food instead of a "medicinal cure." But can such a practice be justified?

The human body can only utilize a certain amount of vitamins, minerals, and other nutrients during a given time period. Any excessive amounts of nutrients are eliminated by the body in the urine and feces. For example, brewer's yeast is sometimes used in the diet for a high B-vitamin supplement. The body can only use a limited amount of these B-vitamins; the rest comes out in the urine.

The high and concentrated amounts of nutrients in most herbs cannot be totally used by the body. Only so much of a mineral or vitamin can be used, and the excess in the herbs must be eliminated. Taking in nutrients in excess of the body's needs is not "insurance"; instead, the body is burdened by minerals which are in excess of its needs.

Fortunately, most natural foods suited to man's physiology (like fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds) are well-balanced nutritionally. Herbs, however, do not have a balanced array of nutrients for human needs because they are not properly a food for man to eat.

Our vitamin and mineral requirements can be more than met with a diet of natural and unprocessed fruits and vegetables. Herbs are not needed food supplements, and indeed, they may serve as a dangerous substitute for a proper diet of fresh and wholesome foods.

Then, too, you must remember that along with any minerals or vitamins the herb may possess are also alkaloids and poisons that the body cannot healthily metabolize. Herbs are not a safe supplement. In fact, no supplement is safe because all such unbalanced additions to the diet disrupt the body's metabolism arid force it to eliminate the unneeded substances and excesses.

Why Herbs Appear To Work

Even after people have been told about the harmful effects of herb taking, they often persist in the practice because they insist that the herbs are working and helping them. An elderly man of about ninety has dutifully swallowed a capsule containing an herbal laxative every day for the past several years. "It keeps me regular," is his only comment and justification for the herb-taking habit.

Herbs do have an effect on the human organism. There can be no question about that. When certain herbs are taken, headaches do disappear and constipation seems to vanish. Are the herbs "working" as the herbalists would have us believe?

In a discussion on herbs and their seeming ability to "cure," Dr. Shelton has stated:

"Only poisonous herbs are thought td have medicinal qualities. If an herbal substance does not occasion actions of expulsion and resistance when taken into the body or applied to it, it is not vested with any power to cure. If the body ejects the herb by vomiting, diarrhea, diuresis, or diaphoresis, and this is accompanied by some pain and discomfort, then the herb is regarded as beneficial and it is used to "work." If the patient then recovers in spite of the herb taking, full credit for recovery is given to the poisonous plant, and the self-healing power of the body is completely ignored.

Shelton and other Hygienists have stated that for any substance to have a so-called medicinal effect, like herbs do, it must be a poison. This is because the alleged medicinal effects of a substance are nothing more than the efforts of the body to expel and resist poisons. Herbs and other drugs, instead of being digested and utilized by the body, are expelled.

What does all of this mean? Let's take a simple case where an herb appears to do some work. Peppermint, a rather mild herb by most standards, is sometimes used to "cure" a headache by herbalists. Your head hurts, so you drink a cup of peppermint tea. Your head stops hurting. Did the peppermint work?

Yes and no. Most headaches are caused by swelling of the intracranial blood vessels around the scalp. These blood vessels swell because of toxic matter in the bloodstream and body, and they then press against sensitive nerves. When peppermint is taken, the body recognizes its oils as harmful. Circulation is rapidly increased by the body and the heart speeds up. At this point, the body is attempting to eliminate the peppermint toxins as quickly as possible by increasing circulation so elimination can proceed.

The increase in circulation, due to the toxic nature of the peppermint oils, has an effect on the swollen blood vessels in the head. The vessels are dilated so that the circulation can proceed rapidly and the peppermint poison can be eliminated. As a side result, the headache disappears temporarily.

So is the headache cured, and did the peppermint work? No, the body did all the work. It worked to eliminate a poison, and these efforts also masked the symptom of a toxic body—in this case, the headache.

The cause of the headache—toxicosis—was not removed by the peppermint. The conditions that brought on the toxicosis—poor diet and lifestyle habits—were not improved by the herb. The headache may have disappeared, but the underlying cause remains. This is the case with all herbs—symptoms are depressed by the eliminative actions of the body which are directed toward the herb.

Living an Herb-Free Life

Almost without exception, herbs have been used to treat the sick. They are rarely used as food, although occasionally herbs have been used as seasonings or condiments. A lifestyle without herbs is both easy and healthy.

First, you should realize that most people resort to herbs in an effort to cure themselves of some illness. However, there can be no "cure" for any disease. Poor health can only be improved by healthful living practices—not through drugging, treatments, or cures. The proper response to an illness is a complete physiological rest—fasting, if possible. Following a complete or modified fasting regimen, the individual should adopt a healthy diet of primarily uncooked fruits and vegetables which are eaten in as whole a state as possible.

Herbs, and other drugging agents, are often used by people who desire a quick "fix" of their problems without any change in their lifestyle. Since it is an unhealthy lifestyle which created the disease in the first place, this approach always fails. The use of herbs may produce different symptoms or masked symptoms, but the herbs themselves cannot remove the underlying cause of the symptoms.

Therefore, to live a life without herbs, we must realize that their use in times of sickness is deceptive. We must understand that total health can only be regained by fasting, proper diet, and a healthy lifestyle. Herbs have no power and no capacity to effect these changes in our lives.

Swallowing herbs is like swallowing any other pill or drug. The fact that they grow naturally does not give them any extra or safe curative properties. Indeed, all curative properties reside within the human organism. No outside agent, including herbs, can instigate any healing capabilities of the body.

Besides medicine, then, what else are herbs used for? Some people use them as food supplements. But if you are following the biologically-correct diet of chiefly raw fruits, vegetables, nuts, seeds, and sprouts, then there is never a need for herbal supplements or any type of nutritive additive. Many people are wont to blame their health problems on some deficiency or the other, which they then seek to correct by herbal or chemical supplements.

In reality, most illnesses are not caused by any deficiency, but rather by a sufficiency, or excess, of toxic materials in the body. Taking supplements merely adds to this toxic level, and no causes of the illness are removed.

Finally, herbs are sometimes part of a meal. The culinary herbs, such as garlic, onion, parsley, rosemary, cumin seed, caraway seed, and so on are probably the most common herbs used in most diets. Let's look at these herbs and seasonings in closer detail to see how we can also live without them.

Herbs That Taste Good?

Herbs that are foul and bitter tasting, as are most of the medicinal herbs, can be easily explained as unsuitable for the human dietary. Who would want to eat them anyway? Other herbs, however, have enjoyed a reputation as seasonings and flavorings in cooking and food preparation. Since this is where herbs are often used in everyday living, we should understand their use better. First, almost every herb used as food in the diet is done so as a seasoning or flavoring for cooked food. Few people desire to eat rosemary or caraway seeds with their raw vegetables. Most such herbs, then, are used to season cooked foods.

Why are seasonings or herbs used in cooked foods? Because the natural flavors and taste have been destroyed in the cooking process. The aromatic herbs are simply used to disguise the insipid taste of the cooked foods.

A predominantly raw food diet does not need aromatic or culinary herbs to "spark" up the flavors. Only in cooking have these herbs gained a foothold. But are they harmless seasonings?

No, because many of the herbs used as seasonings have strong oils and alkaloids that disrupt digestion. Ginger, for example, causes the digestive system to hurry the food through before being completely digested. Thus, these seasoning herbs have gained an undeserved reputation as "digestive aids." Instead of aiding digestion, their use occasions the body to rapidly expel them along with the food they seasoned.

What about some herbs that are relished in a raw state, such as garlic, onions, parsley, and so on? In general, these types of herbs are not needed and may prove harmful to the organism. Garlic and onions, two of the most popular flavoring herbs, are full of noxious toxins, like mustard oil and allicin. Parsley is also a strong herb whose use can overstimulate the kidneys. It is a very concentrated green herb which should probably not be a part of the regular diet.

The cooking and seasoning herbs are not harmless additions to the diet as is popularly believed. Their use disrupts digestion and places an added load on the eliminative system. They are used chiefly to flavor and spice up foods that are probably best not eaten anyway (that is, overcooked foods, meats, and so forth). A diet of fresh fruits and vegetables require no seasonings, herbal or otherwise.

[mershwista]

hehe...I don't mean to sound defeatist....but after struggling with this for years and not getting noticeably better, it's so hard not to be...especially when I feel I've tried all the herbs out there. I'll admit, though, that I don't know much about flower essences. It might be worth a shot. My tendencies are the following, usually: I'll start to feel anxious or depressed for no apparent reason, fight it until I lose, break, and go do something stupid that I later regret, cry about said action, cry about crying, etc. Then I just won't want to get out of bed for at least a month.

That, obviously, is more simplistic than the actual thing...but I feel that whatever it is that my whole family struggles with, it's more of an anxiety-induced guilt/regret depression...well, sometimes. Sometimes I just hate everything, could care less about anything, etc...it's not just one easily pinpointed cause/trigger/situation.

For example...yesterday all I did was cry all day, and today, I broke and kinda just went on a stress eating binge and had 2 avocados and about a cup and a half of sundried tomatoes....all raw, mind you, but overeating is overeating, no matter the cause or the food eaten, and now I feel like crap....and I likely will continue to feel like crap throughout the rest of the week, at least. Not that I WANT that to happen...just, going by past experienes, that's what's likely. It sucks....so I plan to just wait it out and avoid most people until I feel happy again.

[mershwista]

It's at a time like this where I just need to refresh....reboot....something...and then I'll be all right. It just takes so d*** long! And I feel like I need a refresher way too often. I can't spend my life refreshing, because then I spend no time living...just a thought.

[mershwista]

Ok, now this is actually in response to the most recent posts...because those weren't showing when I wrote before.

You know, that's great that some people can heal themselves with just a raw diet. It must be nice to have problems that are so easily fixable. Some of have to work at solving those issues, and those issues don't ever go away. Seeing as I feel I've given raw foods (100% at that) a fair shot and seen no improvement on the depression, I have no reason to believe that I ever will. Every healing method has its miracle success stories, and I don't take yours any more seriously than I take theirs. You'll find raving testimonials for about anything these days.

I only know those things I can tell for sure (or what I think is certain, anyways...but let's not get overly philosophical at the moment). Someone once told me that a good definition of insanity was trying the same thing over and over and expecting different results. Thus, I no longer believe, as I hoped 5 months ago, that raw foods will do squat for my depression. I will probably stay mostly raw....but since 100% is quite frankly a pain in the neck and very expensive...it's getting toned down, at least for the moment. I'm hoping I can just get away for a while and fast and meditate....hopefully get the reset I need. Well, sort of...I have concerts to play in and the like.

I don't know...I tend to be a person of extremes, and one that changes of mind quite often. I'm losing my standing ground, so I'm sorry if I don't make any sense right now. i'm just getting more and more depressed and apathetic and defeatist...but somehow I'm still idiotically out there looking for a solution...blah

[greeninloanageles1]

I know you tried a lot of things, so I wonder if you read about Gerson therapy which is originally made for cancer patients, but it helps for any problems. The downside is that it takes a lot of time and produce for juices, but you could do modified simplified version since you are not in imidiate danger. It bacically includes a lot of green and other juices a day to remineralize the body and coffee enemas to help liver to release toxins.



Rawnora: "Human beings are fruit eaters, every single one of us. This is the first fact that must be known by anyone calling him/herself a health professional, otherwise that person will never be able to identify the cause of disease. "

I took a mostly fruitarian approach to raw when I started. It was only recently that I realized that the reason I was so jittery and anxious all the time was because I was eating too much fruit. So, I stopped, and I was back to my normal amount of anxiety.

[luckitri]

When I juice and do smoothies alot my bowels are like clay so I think the enemas are to compensate for what the lack of fiber does to the bowels.

[mershwista]

Hmmm...well, I know (knew) someone that died of cancer after doing Gerson...

[Sharon in Colorado]

I'll admit, though, that I don't know much about flower essences. It might be worth a shot.

mer - Why not take Raw Nora up on her offer??

If you are trying everything else, there's nothing to lose here but your depression if anything!

If you don't, I will **hint, hint, Raw Nora** ;)

[mershwista]

Because rawnora advocates that raw foods will heal me when they haven't done squat...and continues to insist on things that are obviously false.

[onelife2live]

Mershwista...

I have been following this post and I empathize with you........it's unfortunate that your experiences and lack of results (as you see it) have brought you to "feel" this way. But it is your reality nonetheless.

From the outside looking in....your resolve and finality about things "atleast here in this thread" seems to be blocking any help, suggestions, advice that anyone is trying to give you here. I'm sure you have tried "everything" that you say you've tried...but your belief is that you've given it enough time "5 months" based on your belief, is that fair to yourself though? All those many ways or things that you've tried, hence there is more to the list :eek: , perhaps you've thrown your body into absolute chaos. I think your doing more harm to yourself by cutting off any further possibilities. Perhaps you know not what your body and mind does. Continue to meditate on the positives.

I believe your body and mind are both healing synonomously (sp?), but you need to get out of the way for the healing to continue....the results will come if you stop sabotaging the effort. If the spirit within said to you "But you were soooooo close!", would you believe you were close enough to better results??????????

Go to the "Personal Growth" section, there are all supportive threads that you may find helpful to your own personal growth around this issue.

I wish you the very best in your journey to better health.

[rawnora]

Because rawnora advocates that raw foods will heal me when they haven't done squat...and continues to insist on things that are obviously false.

Or maybe it's because you'd have to interact with me as a real person, not from the safe anonymity of your computer screen, where you can pretend that you'd do anything on earth to be well. If you’re not pretending, prove it. People who truly are desperate for help don’t turn down offers.

Depression is the mind's way of cooperating with the body by rejecting activities that require energy that the body doesn't have available. I can assure you, however, that what you need to do in order to enlist my help requires very little effort. You don't have to get enthusiastic and hopeful, all you have to do is open your mind, give me some information, and be willing to make some changes to your diet.

Btw, I do not advocate that raw foods heal people. I advocate that removing the cause of disease makes it go away in the vast majority of cases. It's quite possible to be 100% raw, diseased and toxic, all at the same time. I offered to help you because there is so much confusing and misleading nonsense being dispensed here and everywhere that it's sometimes very difficult for newcomers to determine exactly what must be done to get well. There are ‘foods’ in the typical raw diet that can keep a person sick, and many new raw fooders just keep on eating them, not realizing the damage they’re doing.

What’s your diet been like for the last 5 months? Why don’t you list a few days’ typical recent intake so we can explore where you might be making mistakes? If you won't do it for yourself, think about the others reading this thread who could perhaps learn from our exchange. In addition to knowing what you’ve been eating, it would be helpful to know your age and what your diet was like before you went raw.

Regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[peppermintpatty]

Rawnora, I could not agree more with this statement "Or maybe it's because you'd have to interact with me as a real person, not from the safe anonymity of your computer screen, where you can pretend that you'd do anything on earth to be well. If you’re not pretending, prove it. People who truly are desperate for help don’t turn down offers."

This is a raw food SUPPORT board mershwista. Read the mission statement.

It is also a board to help people as an extension to Alissa's living on live food book. That’s why she created this forum. Alissa recognizes that there are many way to do a raw food diet and she allows everyone on here to express freely and choose the raw food path that suits them but it is also not a natural hygiene site, a fruitarian site or a low fat raw site. If that is what you want, go visit those boards.

PLEASE abide by the mission statement or you will be banned wershwista.

[mershwista]

Whoa...you're threatening to ban me...why, again? Yeah, the board is for support...you can't accuse me of not supporting people, and you can't accuse me of being anti-support because I don't take ONE person's advice. I've taken the advice of many other members who have responded to this post.

By the way...you threatened to ban me assuming I'd say one thing or another in response to Rawnora's post...you never gave me a chance to respond, so how do you know what I was going to say?

Seeing as there have been many suggestions for help, I see that it only makes sense to choose from them which suggestions I will pursue and which ones I will not...especially since the suggestions are very diverse and don't always agree with each other.

Actually, rawnora, if you must know, and if I must now report to you what I am doing so that you may validate that I really am depressed, I am already talking with someone very similar to you who is trying to help me heal. I have nothing to "prove" to you. Saying that I must do this and that (take you up on your offer...even if I'm already seeing someone) to prove I am depressed is not only ridiculous but shows that you assume that you are the authority on whether I have a problem or not. That's a bit arrogant, and the person I am talking to right now is humble.

I do believe I will heal eventually. Yes, I feel discouraged and defeatist a lot of times. I value advice but don't follow ALL of it.

Example of advice I followed from this board, since the moderator does not believe I am adhering to the mission statement...the flower essences--I just went out and spent $20 that I don't have on them. So you can't say that just because I don't take you up on YOUR offer (rawnora) that I just must not want to heal.

If it shall be that I will be banned, you validate to me that this is not a good place for me to get help, as I should not be chastised for choosing one person's advice over another.

[blueberryice]

rawnora, you made a statement that my min cant seem to let go of... it's still possible to be 100% raw AND diseased?? What raw foods will be harming a person to keep them ill or cancerous??

Are you speaking of ppl on Raw, but not vegan?

Alissa always taught 'just eat raw'... that's her mission statement. That's what I have lived my life by for the past few years now.

Ppl are being healed from MANY things. I cant imagine being 100% raw & still getting cancer & other illnesses. Could you please clarify?

[blueberryice]

"""Or maybe it's because you'd have to interact with me as a real person, not from the safe anonymity of your computer screen, where you can pretend that you'd do anything on earth to be well. If you’re not pretending, prove it. People who truly are desperate for help don’t turn down offers. """


Rawnora, not everyone has the money to fork over for the big 'miracle cures'. That's why Alissa's approach speaks universaly to ppl all over the world. Just. Eat. Raw.

I've had the scariest depression this last month & while there WERE ppl to step in & say "You're going to be ok & alright" and they checked on me when they didnt hear from me for a few days, 1)I didnt deserve the depression because it was so deep I saw no way out & 2)Even though I was sad after the talks my worst fear was that they would just walk away- I didnt want anyone to give up on me. If it wouldnt have been for THEM, I would literally have had noone. Not a soul. So this argument seems to be hitting home for me in a way. I'm not trying to pick up other ppl's fires, but I think you both have some good solid points here.

Rawnora, I was just at your site early this morning. I saw you as a major icon! Esp when you had such structure for living cancer/disease free from your daily food choices. I huess I didnt read enough because apparently you CAN still die early from raw???

Sorry, but I need some clarification.

[Rawkinlocs]

I'm going to break this looong post of mine up into 3 seperate posts, just to make it less cumbersome to read! :o

Mershwista,

I had been following this thread with great interest because I saw that you were really frustrated about having depression and after 5 months of raw, it not showing any improvement.

As I read your posts, I empathized with you and felt that your reactions to some of the posts and suggestions in response to you were clearly just out of your frustration.

I'm not talking about the dialogue between you and Rawnora, but in general. I've observed your overall tone towards eating raw foods (again, I figure out of frustration) and I think that what Peppermint Patty was saying is that your overall attitude just seemed to be against the very thing this forum is all about and was kinda, well, harsh. I'm not saying you're not entitled to your views and feelings...this is YOUR experience thus far and your perception...you're entitled to your feelings about your own personal experience - I realize that the raw diet is not for everyone and not everyone will do it, wants to do it, nor will they always have glowing experiences on it for whatever the reasons are; however, this is a forum that is supposed to be for support of those who want to be raw. Some of your statements were kinda indicating otherwise - that perhaps you no longer want to be raw. For example:

"And by the way, I went into this whole raw mess truly believing it would heal me."

"And so...I see really no reason to stay 100% raw. In fact, I'm weaning
myself off of it little by little, as I see no sense in continuing with
something that takes up lots of time, effort, and money but offers no
benefits. "

And there were a few others. But you know what, in the bolded parts, I sense the strong frustration you are obviously feeling BUT I also see in other statements that you really do want to stay raw and feel some sort of "something" from this way of life in this statement:

"I will probably stay mostly raw, just because the idea makes
logical sense to me, and I do like the way it feels to eat something
fresh instead of something dead."

That statement plus some more recent comments along with the fact that you are going to attempt to fast, etc. lets me know that deep down inside, you really DO want to stick with this way of eating because something inside is telling you it's a good thing.
I think it is great that you connected with someone and you're talking with them and finding it helpful.

[Rawkinlocs]

I also wanted to say that, 5 months raw is a GREAT accomplishment but at the same token, it really isn't that long. There are just some things that take longer for some people. Some people get weightloss results immediately after having gone raw while others (like Rawnora ;) ) it took her about 5 months I think she said in her personal story before she obtained ANY weightloss...not one pound was shed prior to that. She could have very well felt the exact same way you are feeling now about the raw diet - feeling that "here we go again, just one more diet attempt to lose this weight that ended up failing me!" But she kept going and look at her now!

Some people receive that burst of energy right away while people like Pailani went through a long period of being very tired all the time despite the many people who said raw gave them more energy and they weren't tired. But after a while of going and going and doing other things such as tweaking her raw diet by eating a higher fruit/lower fat diet, she has stated she has been feeling better!

Diseases and other health challenges - same thing...some experience healing right away, others experience it much later down the line...but something keeps them holding on be it hope or just the fact that while they may still have the symptoms of the illness, they still feel better eating raw foods as opposed to when they eat cooked.

I say to you, please don't give up hope....if there is the slightest little minute inkling of hope left in you, HOLD ON TO IT! Don't let it go because that is what's going to see you through this to the end. I also say to you, by eating raw, what do you have to lose? You can stay raw and allow your body to continue the process of cleansing both body and mind and allow yourself to get to the point where you get that breakthrough or you can go back to eating cooked food (whatever the percentage - great or small) and still be in the same predicament and potentially worsen things.

[Rawkinlocs]

There are a lot of people who have gotten a lot of benefits from eating raw and being ridden of depression and even worse mental conditions. But maybe it does take you seeking some help in other forms such as talking to someone.

I know you don't agree with a lot of what Rawnora has said to you, but she has a lot of knowledge and information and I really think if you just talk to her...the internet can be such a misguiding way of communicating - you might see that she has a lot to offer you in the way of help. Just think about it - consider that one phone call, hear the sincerity and the calm in her voice. She's been doing this a long time and she has a lot to offer. No, not all of what Nora advocates is always the easiest to chew and digest - but she is a great wealth of knowledge and information. You two may end up talking and she become one of your best friends...you never know! I've seen some VERY bitter/sour relationships end up VERY sweet right here on this very forum and in real life! :)

But even if you decide not to talk to her, again, don't give up hope. Keep coming here even if it's just to read and not say much. We would like to see you come on here one day and say, "OMG...I can't believe it...my depression is GONE!"

Also, keep in mind that just as you've heard about eating raw foods and no longer eating cooked foods brings about detox in the body, it also brings about emotional detox (do a search on it, you'll see some interesting stories and testimonials about people's experiences with that here) and sometimes a lot of things are brought up to be dealt with. Sometimes in addition to eating raw, you have to seek help in other areas too - physical support groups as well as online ones are sometimes helpful just to talk and vent out your feelings.

Well, I think I've rambled enough. I hope my words don't end up fueling the fire, but rather help you to keep focused on your goal and to not give up hope!

Peace and Blessings to you!

[rawnora]

blueberryice,
I didn't say a person could get cancer while eating only raw foods. I said it's possible to be raw and diseased/toxic at the same time. Degenerative disease is a consequence of overwhelming the body with toxins that accumulate faster than the body can eliminate them. Organs and tissues being fed by a perpetually polluted bloodstream become irritated, inflamed, ulcerated and indurated (hardened, or scarred), such that they don't function properly. Because nature is kind and gives us many second chances, the vast majority of these cases are entirely reversible. However, people coming to the raw food diet with degenerative disease are best served by centering their diets around foods which are easily digested and do not impede healing, and they need to steer clear of those 'foods' and substances which not only directly pollute the body but interfere with the digestion of the foods they accompany into the stomach. There are many foods that are considered 'raw' which fall into the latter category.

Often, even a junky raw diet is enough to allow healing from chronic disease, since chronic disease takes a lot of sustained, flagrant abuse to create. But when a person suffering from degenerative illness has been raw for months and has not had relief, it will be necessary to be more strict with the diet, or do an extended fast on water only.

I hope this helps clarify; thanks for letting me explain further.

Warmly,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[blueberryice]

THANK YOU!!!

You took the time for that & I'm very thankful.


*whew*


What about those who are eating 100% raw but not 100% organic?? I do what I can, when I can, but as I eat those non organic fruits I take pride in the fact that it's not nearly as worse as some of the other stuff ppl eat here.

Can someone still get wonderful effects not being organic??

[Rawkinlocs]

...What about those who are eating 100% raw but not 100% organic?? I do what I can, when I can, but as I eat those non organic fruits I take pride in the fact that it's not nearly as worse as some of the other stuff ppl eat here.

Can someone still get wonderful effects not being organic??

*Waves hand* - I did!!

You're right, you do the best that you can, when you can - you will still benefit and your body will be in a MUCH better position to eliminate any toxic substances from conventionally grown produce than if you didn't eat raw at all.

[Sharon in Colorado]

mer - just to let you know again, my genetic cholesterol problem is a life-long issue. I have been on and off raw for 5 years and with it the levels have dipped and rose like crazy. I just have to be very persistent in my raw walk, keep my fat low (which is a challenge for me) and do daily cardio.

So when I do these things routinely, the levels are more acceptable, if not, they are high, even on raw. MOST people's cholesterol dips on raw or even vegan without having to watch the fat, but not mine. So I am a totally different case than everyone else.


Also I think Rawkinlocs has got something there with the emotional detox. If you have been 100% raw for 5 months straight, this could be what is happening to you, since 5 months is a fairly common time when many start really seeing and feeling results.

Often-times people detox what ails them. Some people break out in excema which they hadn't seen since they were children, others may feel pain in joints or bones from old injuries. I personally felt a novocaine detox - the whole side of my face was tingly and numb from some novocaine injections I got during a root canal - years ago when I had got the work done, the numbness and tingling stayed for a week.

So it is very, very possible that you could be experiencing a whole lot of depression as an emotional detox symptom.

Please just stick with it a little bit longer. Try getting out in the sun and some extra activity which should help reduce your symptoms.

[luckitri]

I have always wondered about something I call cell memory. Supposedly our cells are replenishing rebuilding themselves constantly so that the original cell and injury are gone. Maybe it is similar to when someone loses a limb but still can feel it? Certain illnesses like fibromyalgia can cause one to re-experience (term here is retrace?) body trauma that has to be older than the cells so somehow they are transmitting the memory of the injury to the new components? And I will get to re-experience my old depressions as a form of detoxing them (as well as other prior injuries)? This is an excellent thread.

So I am drawing many ideas from this thread.

[luckitri]

For the record, I can trace genetic tendencies, (actualized like depression) back 4 generations and we ALL ate differently due to geographic location, time in history, family occupation, etc. Maybe RAW will finally end it.

[mershwista]

Thanks, everyone, for the encouragement...I feel really apathetic in general about everything right now, and I have zero willpower. I'm sick of being told by all my friends here (not on this board) that I either have anorexia or that the raw diet is surely the cause of whatever problem I'm experiencing at the moment. It's hard to stay raw when your friends always know you as the one that used to cook the most awesome gourmet dishes with whatever we could scrounge up and are constantly pestering you to come join in such activities again...so much of our culture is centered around food. No one can believe that a single apple satiates me..."You're starving yourself, and if you don't stop, as your friend I'm going to have to get you some help..." And btw, I counted what I eat. It's usually around 1500 calories or so, which is a healthy amount to eat for someone my size with a fair amount of muscle mass.

I've dug myself into quite the hole (I do this often, raw or not), and I am hoping this fast I'm doing starting tomorrow will help out. Longest fast I ever did was 5 days, so I don't feel I've really given that a fair shot. This one, I hope, will be longer.

You're right, there's that little part of me that still wants to stay raw. I hope the fast will help me get back on track. (My friends are religious and can at least understand fasting...so ironic). I will let you know how things go if you're interested.

And yes, Rawkinlocs, I'd love to come on here and write about how I'm not feeling depressed anymore....that would be amazing.

Well, that's all, folks.....I guess

[mershwista]

Rawnora....

Ok, I have been thinking about your offer to help, and although I am quite insulted by your way of getting my attention, I would be interested in taking you up on your offer if it's still available.

A lot of what I say and do doesn't make much sense, and the degree of apathy/depression/etc I'm experiencing at any given moment will influence that.

My problems are periodic, but when they are there, I find them inescapable. Every woman in my mom's side of the family struggles with similar problems.

I'm a senior in college whose parents are divorced. My mother is distant and my father was always a control freak. I'm the oldest of 6 in my family. From about age 13 I mostly raised myself because Dad was a control freak and Mom was emotionally broken, so neither house was a good environment. From that I became annoyingly persistent, impossible to read, not able to trust anyone, with little self-esteem, and a mild eating disorder along with my omnipresent anxiety and depression issues.

One thing I knew for sure throughout my whole life was that I didn't want to become like my dad, who worked all the time and was always grumpy and pissed off. I also didn't want to be like my mom, who ended up so emotionally scarred from her nasty, nasty divorce that she could not function normally for years.

And, if I do say so myself, my way of living my life has seemed to work out pretty well for me compared to the two of them. I'd like to say I'm the happy, successful, peaceful person I portray to the world daily (and I'm a pretty good actress), but in truth, that's not where I am most of the time. One thing that has always plagued me is emotional eating, and as I mentioned before, it got to be a pretty big problem a couple different times. Never was anorexic....never was bulimic. And I suppose the binging episodes were really no different than the stress eating many other people I knew/know do. But my reaction to such falls is what makes them stand out for me. One little binge and I will just start crying about that...and about everything else in my life...and never stop.

And it's not just with emotional eating, either...anything at all can send me over the edge into a huge depression. I wish I could identify the triggers, but they're so diverse and different from each other than really, anything can trigger.

I am often unhappy with situations and then frustrated with myself for being too apathetic to change them...

Just some thoughts on that. Obviously, that's not everything that there is to it, but hopefully that summarizes some. I could quote things from my own journal, and that might help, too.

[rawnora]

Mershwista,
Thanks for all that info. That's not what I need, though. I need to know your age, what your diet was like before you went raw, and what you've been eating for the last 5 months. Write down every single thing you ate in a recent 3-day period, including the time of day and quantities in standard forms of measure, like ounces or cups. In addition, it's not enough to say you ate a "flax cracker", it is helpful for me to know the ingredients. If your binge days are frequent (more than 3 times a week), write them down. If they're rare (<3-4 times per month), just briefly describe what you eat when you binge in addition to the 3 day diary. If you can't remember everything you ate in any typical 3 day period, start writing everything down for the next 3 days but it's very important to not eat differently because you know you're going to be writing it down. Unless what I'm looking at is representative of what you've been doing, I can't help you.

Your family history has much less to do with your depression than you think. Depression is a physiological disease, like all others. It needs to be healed from the inside out. There will be some things you'll need to change once you're healthy to keep from getting yourself into the mental ruts you're in now but it will be easy when your body has the energy. We all make up stories in our heads that allow us to deal with unpleasant circumstances. When the circumstances go away, the stories are still there, messing up our relationships with other people. For example, if my father criticized me as a child, rather than think "my father is too critical of others", I might think "I'm not good enough". It's just a mistaken assumption, but I'll go for the rest of my life thinking it's true if I don't recognize the mistake and start thinking differently. It's easier than you think.

Let's just focus on getting your body healthy, and the rest will fall into place.

Warm wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[rawnora]

Depending on what your diet diary reveals, it may also be helpful to know your sleep and exercise habits, in addition to any medications, herbs or supplements that you take now or have taken in the past. Also whether you've been diagnosed with any diseases. You can either provide this info now or we can look into it after we've seen what your diet is like.
Thanks,
Nora

[mershwista]

I'm in the middle of a fast right now, but I will look through old food diaries and get back to you on that.

[mershwista]

Before I went raw, my diet was a healthy vegan one: I never consumed refined carbs like white rice or bread except on occasions where it was impolite to refuse such things...I would generally eat rolled rye with cranberries or raisins for breakfast, bring a salad and sandwich/soup/something else for lunch, a piece of fruit to snack on in the afternoon when I'd inevitably need an energy boost around 3pm or so, and enjoy a wheat pasta or brown rice creation for dinner. That's been the pattern since I got to college (3 and a half years or so). Before that, I was vegetarian for another 3 years or so. I'm 20 years old.

For the last 5 months...I started out not really knowing what to eat, and I tried to eat a lot of sprouts because I knew they were cheap, but I quickly got sick or sprout salads and seeds. The pattern I settled into is closer to the following:

Morning, about 7am:
banana
1 TBS seed cheese made with soaked sunflower seeds, parsley, lime juice, and rejuvelac.

around 9am, when my morning class ends:
1 apple

around 11:30
a salad of romaine lettuce and raw hummos (sprouted chick peas, tahini, lemon juice, parsley, garlic)

Around 5:30 or so, when I got home that day:
an avocado
some more seed cheese...maybe 1/4 cup worth
another banana
an apple

NEXT DAY

In the morning, around 7:30am
2 bananas
big handful of sunflower seeds
raw hummos (as described above)

8:30, in the middle of class because I was hungry again:
a banana that I had brought with me in hopes of eating later that day

12ish
same hummos salad as yesterday
another banana

4ish
another romaine salad...this one with a tahini, lemon juice, and sundried tomato dressing
1 pear

8ish
some nut cheese...not really because I was terribly hungry but because I wanted something savory right then. I had maybe 2-3 TBS. Maybe I'm an idiot; I loooove the stuff by itself.

NEXT DAY

7:30am, as usual:
2 bananas
approx. 1 cup homemade blender applesauce (apples, water, cloves)

10ish
a salad of romaine and aforementioned tahini dressing
1 pear and an apple

3ish?
Sometime in the afternoon, anyways, as I was starting to get tired again...
2 avocados
some seed cheese
banana

then I was out of food, since I hadn't brought anymore with me.

----

Typically I will binge at least once a month during pms time. I'll also do it when I'm stressed out, which has apparently happened a lot lately. If I also slip up and eat something cooked, then I will certainly binge shortly thereafter because I'm feeling so rotten and mad at myself and apathetic about improving at that point. The things I generally have during those episodes are usually:

bananas, avocadoes, sundried tomatoes, seeds or seed cheese. I suppose because those are easy to overdo...and those are the things I like most. Oh, and grapes. I dare not overeat grapes, though, because not only am I nauseous as usualy after too many but extremely extra jittery.

Also, if I do not include the above mentioned items in my diet, I feel extremely deprived...and then I get really depressed and stressed out.

Ironically, other than those issues (which, from what I've heard, my "binges" are much less harmful than most women's stress eating episodes,) I'm in excellent health. I have great endurance, work out, run, ride my bike for long distances, etc. I'm usually the one that people ask when they need health advice on campus. And I know that my advice has helped many people. For dietary/nutritional health, anyways. As far as depression...I tell people how I personally have reacted to various things I have tried and tell them that I'm still figuring parts of that out for myself but that I know I've come a long way from where I was.

Hope that is the info you needed.

[Gosia]

"Generally, when I am solving a problem and cannot find a solution, there IS none. It works that way in math."

Not accurate! When I am solving a problem and cannot find a solution, it only means that I haven't found none. The only way to be certain that there isn't one is to provide a proof that a solution does not exist.

Taking up on Nora's generous offer is the best thing you could do! Good luck! :)

Cheers,
Gosia
(a mathematician)

[rawnora]

Mershwista,
Having just read over Rawkinloc's reminder that comments on this board should not reflect negatively on Alyssa's approach to raw foods, I'm thinking that it would be best if we take this conversation elsewhere, like perhaps my discussion list or private email. I think you need specific, definitive information. The recommendations I will make for you will be different than they might be for someone in different circumstances. For the sake of others reading this thread I'll just say that basically you need to change what you're doing and you need to stick with it for as long as it takes for you to know you're completely well. In addition, to have the confidence and perseverence to ride out the difficult times, you will need to educate yourself on the truth about how to be healthy (which has been established, despite the popular claim that it's all controversial).

It will be especially important to your goal of being healthy to discard the belief in cures or quick fixes. That doesn't mean remedies can't ever be used, it just means that they should always be seen as a compromise, an impediment to healing, and a short-term crutch.

"I have great endurance, work out, run, ride my bike for long distances, etc. I'm usually the one that people ask when they need health advice on campus. And I know that my advice has helped many people. For dietary/nutritional health, anyways. As far as depression...I tell people how I personally have reacted to various things I have tried and tell them that I'm still figuring parts of that out for myself but that I know I've come a long way from where I was..."

For all your talk about giving up, the quote above doesn't sound like it was written by someone who's ready to throw in the towel. You may be discouraged and frustrated that you're not well yet, but everyone goes through those times when they're new. You have a lot to learn, not only about how to be healthy but about yourself and how good you need to be with your diet and lifestyle habits in order to realize your health goals.

I know a little about mood polarity and depression myself because my father was bi-polar as I was growing up and is still on meds to control it. My body deals with toxicity in much the same way and I was headed in the same direction as my dad when I went raw. While I was growing up, my nickname was "the grump". Most of the time I didn't have the energy or inclination to be cheerful or friendly with my family. I'm not going to say my moods are always up now but my parents are amazed at the difference in me, as are others who knew me before I went raw. And when my mood is low, I can always connect it to a mistake I made with my diet. When I mess up, that's where it shows up first. It's no different than the obviously physiological problems that others bring with them when they discover how to be healthy. Over and over you'll hear people saying that their symptoms of chronic disease go away when they're good and return when they mess up. They realize that if they want to feel good all the time, they need to take their food choices very seriously.

I'll go see if your email is listed here and if it is I'll email you privately. If not, please write to me at: nmlenz@speakeasy.net. See you there.

Warmly,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[mershwista]

I do find a lot of truth in mood relating to diet. When I can be raw in a healthy way, I am fine....but if I start to feel apathetic, I'll just downward spiral from there. Raw or not. And on the bottom of that spiral, I feel anything but inspired to continue, and my apathy kicks in...for everything, and then I just don't care about anything for a period, sometimes short and sometimes months and months. I have a terrible time with willpower, and it's really hard for me to do the things that help, even a little bit, because I find I have quite the tendency to just stop caring anymore way too often.

[Pailani]

Having just read over Rawkinloc's reminder that comments on this board should not reflect negatively on Alyssa's approach to raw foods, I'm thinking that it would be best if we take this conversation elsewhere, like perhaps my discussion list or private email.

But, please come back to keep us updated!

>> Some people receive that burst of energy right away while people like Pailani went through a long period of being very tired all the time despite the many people who said raw gave them more energy and they weren't tired. But after a while of going and going and doing other things such as tweaking her raw diet by eating a higher fruit/lower fat diet, she has stated she has been feeling better!

Thanks, Rawkinlocs! You just gave me some added incentive to keep plugging away, I feel a new obligation to see this to the end! :D

[mershwista]

Oh, I will, if it's ok w/ Rawnora

[alex]

mershwista:

If you really want to 'reboot' as you put it and really want to be healthy then try the following - sounds like you don't have much to lose anymore:

1) go to the doctor and get checked out to make sure that you dont' have anything major - cancer, heart disease, diabetes etc

2) Find somebody who has done or is knowledgeable about fasting

3) Fast for 30 - 40 days (complete fast) - water only

4) refeed extremely slowly with raw organic plant based food

I've done this (unfortunately I didn't know about raw at the time) but I still felt like a new person afterwards and every ailment, pain etc disappeared.

Hope you find the answer you seek


alex

[mershwista]

Well, here's the reply that I know some of you have been waiting for. Nora advised me on a few dietary changes I can make that overtime will help clean toxins from my system. I will be trying the following for at least the next 30 days (so encouragement is welcome, welcome, welcome, as I don't have a very strong will at the moment...blah):

Eat only fruits in the morning, because these are easy to digest. I asked about greens, and if they were ok, too, for the morning, so my breakfast will be a smoothie with greens in it, like spinach and romaine lettuce.

I will be cutting out garlic and also fermented foods like nut cheese. My afternoon food will consist mainly of salads...digestable greens, fruits, and soaked nuts.

I'm going to try this...hopefully since I don't have the willpower to fast I will have the willpower to do this. It's just so hard for me because I haven't a shred of support from any tangible, visible in-person person in my area. But at least with this plan I shouldn't get hungry. Cravings? I know I will get them, because I always crave savory things when I eat fruit...

How do all of you deal with cravings? For cooked food....for things you know you shouldn't have?

Wish me luck...we'll see how this works!

[Sharon in Colorado]

Thanks for updating this thread Mer! I wish you the best!

[Rawkinlocs]

Merwishta,

I, too, wish you the VERY best healing and success! I think this will help you greatly. There are members here who are from your neck of the woods. I'm sure if you put it out there, someone would be willing to (physically) buddy-up with you and be that in-person support system that you need!

Also, check with www.rawfood.meetup.com and see if there are any meet-ups in your area for added support.

Keep us posted on your progress and results!

[lily]

Thank you for updating us, Merwishta. Like many others on this board I have been following your discussion with much interest and quiet support for you and wishes for your good health...

I love the sound of your new diet plan, and wish you the best of luck with it. Personally when I've been eating lots of fruit and 'crave savory things' as you say, I find some lovely crunchy celery heart often hits the spot for me; sometimes I eat this with soaked almonds. If you're allowed avocado, that's helpful then, too.

Anyway, the best of luck, and look forward to hearing how you get on. You can do it!

lily

[mershwista]

Hmmm...well, so far I feel like absolute ****, extremely apathetic, and about ready to cry again.

I hope this condition does improve eventually...

[rawnora]

Radical dietary improvement in people who have degenerative disease seems to sometimes occasion a period of more intense suffering as healing kicks in. Other times, people feel immediate relief. Personally, I didn't have any diagnosable diseases going in but I went through the worst menstrual pain I've ever felt in my life *after* going raw. I didn't question whether I was doing the right thing. I knew that I was because those trying times were infrequent and most of the time I was feeling better than I'd ever felt in my life. I think the practice of taking remedies or drugs and getting instant relief sets us up for an unreasonable kind of consumerism where we expect our bodies to fall in line as soon as we drop the quarter in.

Facing chronic disease isn't easy no matter which way a person decides to go. Picking the way that will eventually resolve the problem makes the most sense, however. We just have to trust that if we align ourselves with nature, we will be rewarded. Nature doesn't do anything quickly.

How is the diet going, Mershwista? If you have specific questions about anything we talked about, please feel free to ask. Did you find some recipes for green smoothies? I know this board is all raw but I hope I can get away with mentioning another thought I had, which was to try steamed veggies like broccoli and cauliflower for dinner when you want something 'savory'. These are much healthier and easier to digest than complicated gourmet raw foods. Remember, the idea is to decrease the eliminative load on your body such that your body can focus on healing rather than garbage disposal. Eating foods that are easily digestible (and therefore create less waste) is extremely important.

Hang in there.

Warm wishes,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[mershwista]

Oh, I'm not about to give up yet....I know it's only been what, 4 days? And I need longer than that to feel the effects.

I sent you an email about how things are going....I don't know....I have such zero willpower that I worry that after a while, I won't be able to keep this up, for long enough to heal. I'm working on it though...don't know really what else to do.

[VeryBerry]

Mershwista,

I feel so sad about the fact that the raw food diet has not helped you.
You did, however mentioned that you felt a bit better. It might make sence to continue a little longer sinse you already invested 5 months into it. Did you try eating a diet high in greens or mostly greens for a while, it is supposed to be very cleansing. Also speding time outdoors and light exercise supposed to help depression. I would accept Rawnoras offer to help you, there is a chance it migh work.

Wishing you healing,
Nicole.

[mershwista]

I'm sure I would eat more greens if I didn't hate them so much...back in the normal eating days, I could eat a salad no problem...with tofu, chick peas, balsamic viniagrette, etc. Now that all those are no-nos...(sprouted chick peas are not very good and totally different than cooked ones) I can't stomach a salad, and I feel like I am eating grass or something. But I did end up taking Rawnora's advice, and the last few posts were describing my current troubles with implementing it.

[mershwista]

Here's my progress so far:

(I sent this to Rawnora, but I'd appreciate anyone else's thoughts on this:)

I've been feeling sicker and sicker...I honestly don't see how this is
good for me. This morning (around 4 or 5) I woke up and vomitted all
the contents of my stomach. There was blood in the vomit. It's been
only a week since my last period and I seem to be on another one now.
I'm also bleeding from the anal region.

I wonder how many side effects like this I should endure before
deciding that this is not what will work for me.....I feel like
absolute ****....tired....couldn't get up all morning until 11 (I'm
usually a morning person, and 11 is the latest I've slept in years),
weak, weak, weak, bleeding from every orifice of my body, or so it
seems...common sense tells me to stop this NOW.

[mershwista]

Hmmm...the smiley created itself. That wasn't supposed to be there. I meant just a : and a ).

[Sharon in Colorado]

Are you detoxing any kind of meds?

[dreday]

here is a question about the topic which i originally intended thi discussion to be based on: genetic disorders. What if somebody is blessed with really good genetics and eats whatever they want never experiencing negative effects. For example my grandfather has a very strong heart and good cholesterol levels yet his entire life he has been eating the worst diet known to man consisting of gallons of ice cream, salami, cheese, pasta, cake, pastries etc. Now he is in his mid 70's and he still works and functions fine. Why is that? Maybe genetics do dominate our lives and not our eating habits. Someone please proe me wrong.

[mershwista]

dreday, I actually agree with you for the most part. This retarded depression I'm dealing with....it's genetic. Believe me. It doesn't leave. Every woman in my family has it. And looking at what my brothers eat...well, they ought to be more depressed than me, and they're not. I think, however, that eating habits and other habits can ameliorate a genetic condition. For example, I know that I am LESS depressed in general when I eat healthily, exercise regularly, and manage my time well. Does it solve it? Absolutely not. But it makes the slightest difference. Just my thoughts.

[wisslewj]

Hey dreday,

I am not 100% on te genetic thing, but to a large extent, I belive genetic diseases are actually a myth. (or at least misundertood)

Science operates on the germ theory model of disease. (this is a monomorphic view). MANY good genius men have shown that this is absolutely not right. Peopple like Dr. Bechamp, Dr royal rife and many others have proven quite soundly (it can even be VIEWED) that the model should be pleomorphic. (i will post a link on pleomorphism for those interested)

Hence, all disease, even stuff termed "genetic" is really not as such. All disease it seems is the result of "protits" (smallest form of bacteria) morphing into a dabgerous form in order to survive. This happens when the terrain of the body is unhealthy. Hence, fix the terrain, fix the disease. Following this, tons of cases of cancer, heart disease, hep c etc have been eliminated. The "cure" was no specific food and no drug, but the body, given the necessary raw material, cures itself. The body is the ONLY thing that can cure. (well apart from god of course! ;) )

So, if the case is genetic "disease", proper nutrition should remedy this as it is a viral/bacterial component actually causing the disease. (there are counless sites and cases showing that even things like alsheimers is from a strain of bacteria and have thus been reversed!)

If it is a genetic PHYSICAL abnormality, the verdict is still out on if that is viral and can be fixed. (down syndrome for example) though there are MANY cases where autistism was found to be viral in nature (from vaccines) and reversed. So its possible to help many things when the terrain is right. Here is that link to pleomorphism:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca@iimetro.com.au/pleomorphism.htm

I hope this is of some help
Jeff

[luckitri]

dreday, I have often wondered the same thing. The only idea I have is that the world was a much cleaner place even that many years ago....so grandpa's foundation is cleaner, healthier - so he can afford to eat in a way that so many of us cannot. ? Maybe he was exposed to less toxins during his life?

[mershwista]

Jeff,

There are many theories about disease. I think that no theory is entirely right and that the cause of disease is different in different cases.

In my case, every woman in my family has fought depression/anxiety. The men have not. Those women have lived in different places and eaten different foods, and all have been affected. The men have not been affected. It does not affect people like my stepsister who are not blood related.

I am personally opposed in general to modern medicine. But as a good friend who is an RN reminds me, it's not all bad. A lot of deaths can be prevented by doctors who really know their stuff and aren't just out prescribing things to make money or fulfill a quota from an Rx company. On the other hand, as in any field, malpractice is a huge issue...there are just many more cases, I believe. The whole area is so corrupt. That is one reason for this. Also, the facilities just wreak of sickness...you know, when you walk in there...you don't feel healthy or healing in the air. At least I don't. When a friend of mine was there for an operation and I went to go visit...****, I wouldn't want to spend any more time than that in such a place. No wonder so many people die there...

There is more to disease than germs, and there is more to disease than toxins/energy. It's a very complex thing, and I think anyone who claims to understand it is highly arrogant. Any valid theory can be tested, strengthened, or disproven. If there is no basis for proof and disproof...there is no basis for the theory. Reminds me of a story I read about a researcher who went to investigate a cult that kept bottles of "charged water". He was trying to measure this charge, but every time he got near it, the keepers of the water claimed that the water would stop emitting a charge because it didn't want to be tested...etc. You can see where this is going.

Anyways, enough of that. I wanted to put a word in on my progress before I tackle this stupid project and go to bed: I feel nauseous and probably won't be keeping anything down tonight either. I feel the same way I felt Saturday night (before the Sunday morning bout). My friends are worried about me. My iron levels are a bit low, but not serious.

I thought maybe this was just food poisoning, but I don't feel that much better (anymore). And everything else that's going on...I don't know. I'm sure there are many factors. Maybe I just shouldn't eat...it's hard to right now anyways. All food looks disgusting to me, and I can't stand to be around it. But then I feel weaker. Sorry, but I don't like the idea of just wasting away...if I could justify fasting I might try it, but I've had too many bad experiences. I keep changing my mind and I can't decide what I need to do. I'm nauseous and a bit delirious. There's something wrong with me....beyond, I think, the new diet. Caused by it? I don't know. I don't care. I just want the symptoms to go away, and I want to be healthy.

I'm working on it. Not sure how. But I will get better.

Peace

[wisslewj]

Mersh,

just have a second here before sleep, thought I would look in...

I agree, no theory is perfect, I just think Pleomophism is the best, or closest one I have seen so far. Maybe a lil tweaking by future geniuses will prefect it.

I noticed your symptoms and wondered if maybe you are missing mineral cell salts? I have no idea what your die looks like, but when we are deficient in those as well as other major minerals we can get to feeling pretty bad. Here is a link to the cell salts and what deficiencies in each causes. Maybe it will help ya:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~hubbca@iimetro.com.au/cellsalts.htm

I'll even say a prayer for ya. Lil divine intervention never hurt none. If ya wanna discuss anything else, best to just email me lol.

Hope ya feel better and God Bless
Jeff

[mershwista]

Here are my thoughts, as well as a summary of what's been going on for anyone who is following the progress of this thread.

I started following a diet of fruits in the morning and greens, soaked nuts, fruits, and soaked seeds in the aftrenoon. It is hard for me to feel satisfied on just fruits, so I am permitted to have greens in my fruit smoothies in the mornings. Those are all right...still hungry a lot and never satisfied.

I am to avoid spices, garlic, parsley, etc. Those are things that humans would not supposedly eat naturally. A baby would not eat them. I am wondering, though, why we must eat so many greens, at least according to this theory. I know of no small child that will willingly eat leafy things, and although I do enjoy my salads (well used to, when I could make tahini dressings for them), I HATE greens...sorry. They seem like some of the most unnatural things to me. Why would we avoid garlic and not greens? Maybe I'm weird, but I happen to LIKE straight garlic. Always have. Yeah, even as a little kid.

Also, what makes fermented foods bad? True, they are undergoing a sort of change...but the bacteria present are good bacteria, the ones that replenish the flora in our intestines and keep things like candida in check. Yes? I'll also note that since I stopped having things like rejuvelac and the sort, I have developed a yeast infection....perhaps that is unrelated, but I still wonder.

I am hoping that my latest bout of unexpected illness was due to some sort of food poisoning. Don't know about other regions of the states, but here in Ohio, produce that is halfway decent is getting harder and harder to come by these days. I opened up the fridge Monday morning to find that ALL my grapes were fuzzy with mold. Meaning...Saturday they had the mold in them latently, which I perhaps could not detect, especially if the grapes were part of a smoothie.

This way of eating does not feel right to me. It is incredibly restrictive, bland, and unappetizing. The sickness I recently experienced (again on Tuesday) could likely be enhanced by the psychosomatic effects of eating what I feel is NOT a balanced diet.

Humans are different from what they were back in the foraging days. We've lived for years on a diet that supplies protein, suggesting that the body could be less likely to synthesize all that it needs. This way of eating surely lacks protein. Any nutritionist would agree.

My iron levels are low. I suspect that such an occurrence is due to not only this way of eating but raw in general. I am taking supplements because the condition worries me, and I am sick of being fatigued all the time that I am not bleeding randomly.

There are different approaches that work for different people. I believe that my metabolic type must be different than that of someone's who can thrive on the diet mentioned above.

Even if that is so, the above diet that I am following could be a helpful cleansing tool if done short term. I tend to prefer juice fasting. I've never had an adverse reaction to that. The only problem to juice fasting is that like this, it takes willpower...but juice fasting gives me results with which I can detect progress in a matter of days. This takes willpower, too...I think knowing that this whole board is watching me has kept me on it. I did find a friend who is not even vegan but interested in juice fasting, and I may do one with her. When fasting with a buddy, I tend to have a better chance of succeeding.

Well, any comments and thoughts would be appreciated. Just thought I'd give everyone the update.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Mer - how have you been feeling?

[mershwista]

Well I'm not vomiting anymore. That's improvement, I guess. Especially since finding so much moldingfood in my refrigerator, I find it even more difficult to stomach anything on this diet.

I honestly don't have the willpower to follow through with it right now. It is not helping me, and after what is now 10 days, I think it's fair to say that it's had its chance to at least hint at benefitting me.

So there is, I see, no reason to continue with it. I started eating as normal and for the first time in a while actually didn't feel like dozing off to sleep during my morning class. Amazing.

I plan to do a juice fast with the motivation of a friend who will do it with me and then go from there. It will be a short one...if I had more willpower I could go longer. But I need to set attainable goals if I expect to reach them. Otherwise I will be constantly disappointed.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Well, 10 days is just a drop in the bucket compared to the way you've been feeling for years and years. Why not stick it out for at least a month and see if you get any changes. As I mentioned before you could be experiencing some huge emotional detox in the beginning.

Wanted to add something about garlic that you might find interesting. There have been studies (I will post a link when I find it) before about garlic and onions linked to disruptive brain activity. Maybe Nora has the article(s). Some people report strong or strange dreams after ingesting a lot of garlic or onions.

Not trying to dissuade everyone from garlic and onion consumption, but if you are experiencing severe depression and emotional issues, this could be something for you to look into.

Here is one article I found on garlic: http://metabraingrowthprocess.tribe.net/thread/e9f11b5e-fa10-4560-bbe9-80b946808f4b

[VeryBerry]

Mershwista,

I would give your program more of a chance. 10 days is too soon to decide if it is working or not. I am actually considering going on a similar program.

You mentioned you don't like greens, did you try finding organic greens. I never really disliked greens, but always had to have them as a salad with some oil. All that changed when I found organic green leaf lettuce, that staff is sooo good I can eat it right out of the bag. Greens is probably what you need most to help you detoxfy.

Here is a salad dressing idea from the book "Instant raw sensations"
Avocado & mango blended together with a bit of water.
You can use strawberies or ither berries instead of the mango.

Do you make green smoothies?
My fav is spinach, banana & pear. (don't put too much spinach if you are not crazy about greens) My 12 year old brother loved it, and he eat junk food just like any other regular kid.

[mershwista]

hmmm....I'm glad those things are appetizing to you, but I find that most of the recipes in Patenaude's book are so terrible that I can't believe anyone ever eats them. The avocado and mango idea is just one example.

I honestly don't have the willpower to continue on with a program that I have no reason to believe is helping me. Maybe diet therapy doesn't work for everyone. And if it really is beneficial, 10 days ought to at least let me know that I'm on the right track. So far all I get is absolutely no desire to eat anything on the program because it's all disgusting and about 15x the desire tp binge. It's ****. I hate it. It's not helping me. I see no reason to keep it up. I was better off before.

[mershwista]

I also find it interesting that Rawnora never bothered to respond to my question, "What would it take for you to stop believing that eating this way will help everyone? Because any theory can be proven/strengthened or disproven." It wasn't those exact words, and I can't remember if it was this board or an email that I asked...but think about it. Why do we believe things? We experience things that lead us to believe that some things are true and that others are not.

Take for example two little kids playing with an imaginary cat. Another girl approaches them and asks to see the cat. The two that are playing with the cat swear that the cat is real, but refuse to ever produce her. They say that she always hides from people that she doesn't want to be discovered by, but that she is real. Rawnora's insistence that eating her way seems as silly and ungrounded to me as these girls' belief that their (imaginary) cat exists.

And do remember that, as FDR said, there are as many opinions as there are experts. Yet another reason to go by my own common sense and act based on what makes sense to me. My own intuition has never led me wrong before...I just have to follow it.

As much as I hate green things, I do understand their importance. I really do. It is just such a pain in the butt to eat them because there really is no good way....expensive or disgusting, take your pick. I can stand them in a citrus smoothie or in a spring mix salad. Or on a sandwich....but sandwiches are not allowed, I suppose. Or blended into a pasta sauce...but neither is pasta allowed. No wonder I'm iron deficient....not enough greens, no more lentil soup, no chick pea hummos (sprouted hummos is gross)...

I believe that Nora's suggestions will cause (have caused) my body to be malnourished. I don't think they're healthy. I therefore have even less reason to attempt to scrounge up the willpower to stick with them for a month....when I believe that by doing so I am really doing myself a disservice. And plus, let's face it...if that IS the cure, I could never stand eating that way for the rest of my life. I'd HAVE no social life. And that would make me even more depressed.

So those are my thoughts. Hope no one is terribly offended.

[VeryBerry]

I really hope you will find something that will work for you. I want to give Noras program a chance, but I have to be honest I feel a little scared. I don't want to get nutrient difficincy.

My symptoms (mainly pelvic congestion) are not getting any better on regular raw diet, I don't eat a lot of fat & don't usually overeat. I will definitely continue being raw because I do feel more energetic and have much better more stable mood and less food craving and I have no desire to eat cooked food.
I really don't know what else I can do to improve my condition.

[mershwista]

I feel the same...I've "wanted" to go back to cooked a few times but I can't stomach the stuff like I used to be able to...it doesn't have quite the appeal I remember...but it's still good...mind you before I went raw I was a health freak vegan, so really not that drastic a transition. I have a feeling that I may settle into 70-80% raw just for practical reasons....because let's face it, there really is nothing wrong with something like stirfry vegetables once in a while, especially since there's just no raw equivalent : )

Anyways, I will see where time takes my diet. I have learned that there are many factors to a problem...not just toxicity/energy/etc. There are many theories, and each covers only one of the bases.

My plan is to little by little add onto what I am doing to heal myself. Right now I'm glad to say I've been sticking with regular exercise an hour a day (instead of 20-30 minutes), and that helps. I am eternally grateful to have someone to exercise with so that I can keep motivated.

I broke and bought some spring mix tonight. I suppose health is very important to me...and maybe that means that I need to do what I can to buy things like greens that I find palatable. So...I did. At least a small amount : ) I am always moving, otherwise I'd try growing my own.

Best of luck to you in healing as well!

[Sharon in Colorado]

I wouldn't force something down that you hate, but eat those you like. As you said, you like the spring mix, then eat that. If you like celery with some almond butter or guacamole eat that.

It's a process. Tons of us have not liked certain fruits or vegetables. I wouldn't touch a fresh tomato with a 10 foot pole, now I like them, although can't eat them plain, I'll enjoy them in a salad or in a raw recipe, like salsa or pasta sauce.

I used to also really dislike mangoes. I LOVE mangoes now. They are so delicous.

So it's just baby steps to get to where you want to go. A little at a time.

[mershwista]

I used to eat everything and anything. Now I won't. Of course the things I've started not liking are all healthy things...go figure. Blah. I used to like celery...now I hate it. I have always liked tomatoes...good ones from the garden but you won't find any of those this time of year....etc, etc.