Is raw food ethical?

[feelingape]

I know that this sounds like a weird question, but what do you think? Yeah, sure, you're not eating any animals or animal products any more, but that's not my point. Instead, isn't it very arrogant of (relative to poorer countries) rich westerners to refuse to eat perfectly good food (you know, grains and legumes for example) while people in the rest of the world are just getting by on this kind of food, or are starving? Sure, you could argue that just because you eat expensive plant food, this doesn't mean that other people can't eat cheap plant food. But still, what is your opinion on this?

[Revvell]

But still, what is your opinion on this?

I'm not sure what one has to do with the other. What I eat doesn't affect other people in other countries. This sounds like a parent telling us to clean our plates (in other words, overeat) because there are poor people starving in (fill in the blank) or people in this country should remain poor because others are.

Keeping ourselves poor or in poor health doesn't help anyone else.

Revvell

[DavidZaneMason]

-My opinion is that I encourage people to eat the best that THEY determine possible. I support them 100% in that.

-David Mason

[Rawkinlocs]

I agree with the replies given so far...people do the best that they can in their given situation. Those who live in other countries where food or a wide variety of food is not abundant have to do the best they can to survive and that is understandable and no one is knocking that (at least I know I'm not)...those of us who CAN make better choices or the best possible choices should do the best that WE can and eat the healthiest possible way that we can. If finances don't allow for all raw or all organic, we do the best we can, eating as much raw as we can and for everything else, try to make the best possible choices or what our circumstances will allow until we CAN do better. Same with organic vs. conventional...we have to do the best we can and sometimes that means not being able to buy organic or only buying some things organic and the rest conventional. And speaking of which, there are many raw food westerners who are eating "cheap" plant foods! Some of us grow our own.

I mean, should we also take advantage of all this "perfectly good" medication seeing as so many people cannot afford insurance or prescriptions? Or should we eat as healthfully as possible to avoid having to even "go there"?

Now yes, there are some raw fooders who don't eat grains and many of them do not because they CANNOT as they have intolerances to grains. But many raw fooders still consume grains and legumes...they just do not cook them but rather soak and sprout them.

Now, you said, "for example, grains and legumes"...other than grains and legumes, what other "perfectly good food" are you referring to? Meat? Dairy? Processed foods? Burgers and fries? The basic foods of the Standard American Diet that have millions of people overweight, sick and dying of disease?

Also, allow me to ask you this... do you eat EVERY single food item available whether you like it or not? Do you eat every single vegetable, every single fruit, etc. or do you make choices based upon what you like and do not like?

[Pierre]

I think it should affect how we help people in poor countries. I heard a story yesterday about women in Burundi having trouble in childbirth and the sorry state of hospitals there. If we help the Burundians, we should provide water to the vegetable farmers, rather than the hospitals, so that women can eat well during their pregnancies and won't need the hospital.

[Conscious Midwife]

It is not arrogant at all to avoid eating the very animals that folks in other countries hold as sacred and or treat as gods... as a matter of fact it is the most RESPECTABLE thing we can do!

That is to recognize the plight of others and not over consume the exccess that we have here in the States.

Additionally it is surely not arrogant for us to want to live longer, healthier lives maximizing our potential and potentially tapping into the "secret" gardens of healing and finding holistic and homeopathic ways to nurture, restore and heal the body.

What is arrogant is to assume 3rd world countries need our experimental meds, under the guise of humanitarianism, just so our government and pharma companies can pillage the natural resources available to find cures for most likely preventable dis-eases.

what is arrogant is GENTRIFICATION locally, COLONIALISM globally, and the atitude of the supposedly "DEVELOPED" nations that says, 'here do it our way capatilize, chase the $$$, rape the land, smoother the earth in toxins, disregard your families and be progressive so you can get stressed out and die of a heart attack before you are 60 just like so many so many in the US.


DEAR UNIVERSE FORGIVE US FOR OUR HAUGHTINESS :confused:

[vgloveforlife]

Raw foodists eat lowist on the food chain so no I don't think it is selfish at all. We are eating basically what lower income countries eat-plants. A lot of us have our own gardens too.
Eating highest on the food chain (meat) is what is troubling. This leaves less food for starving countries because all the food is fed to meat animals. Here is NH there are huge corn fields. All this corn is feed to meat animals. What a waste when we could just eat the corn instead of eating the animal to get to the corn.

[Conscious Midwife]

What is justice? Giving water to trees.
What is injustice? To give water to thorns.
Justice consists in bestowing bounty in its proper place,
not on every root that will absorb water.

-Mathnawi [V, 1089-1090]
From "Jewels of Remembrance," by Rumi, selected and translated by Camille and Kabir Helminski, © 1996. By arrangement with Shambhala Publications, Inc., Boston, www.shambhala.com.

[Amberly]

I think if everyone ate raw veggies/or just any kind of veggies then we wouldn't have the dreadful meat industry with its wastefulness and subsidies, and there would be no excuse for people starving anywhere. A vegetarian diet is ethical in every sense, not just to animals.

[Amberly]

What I mean to say is a vegetarian diet is good economics. There are numerous reasons not to eat animal products, but I cannot think of any good reasons to eat them.

[feelingape]

Good points! I know that humans, for most of our evolutionary history, did not consume grains. But, for milions of years, our ancestors have been consuming meat, propably originaly as a way of surviving on the open plains, where digestible plant food was scarce. In addition, I'd say that surviving partially on meat has, up to a point, increased our physical and mental abilities, even though most of our mental abilities are surely doe to changes in the social structure of our ancestors in afrika.

That being said, I think it is perfectly reasonable for anyone to eat whatever they are able to survive on, maybe even with improved health. My question is actually more like this:
If everyone, every single human being on earth, alive right now ( and not after some radical population decimation) ate only raw vegan food, possibly also including sproutet grains and legumes, would there be enough food?

Of course, I am aware that the SAD diet is not much better in this respect. I am pretty sure that, if everyone ate as I do know, we would run out of food fast.
But, in my process of deciding to go raw or not, I do want to find out if this would make my life more economicaly and ecologicaly sound, or if it would make my behaviour even less applicable to all the other humans on this planet.
So, any answers to the question if raw food is universaly applicable?

[sport]

We are the future of the planet. All we have to do now is convince everyone else.

[Lay-Lay]

***shrugs*** don't exactly see how what I eat hurts poor people.

***dazed and confused***

[feelingape]

I doesn't hurt poor people. BUT, my question was more, what if all the poor people ate what you eat? Would we have enough for all of us? Because, if not, spreading raw food and praising it as "the best way to eat, but only if you have money" would be kinda arrogant.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not claiming anyone is saying or doing this, or that raw foodists are arogant, I only have a question and I thought you guys could help answer it for me.

[Lay-Lay]

There is plenty of food on planet earth for ALL people, yet some people go without do to the greed for money and power our nations have. You can eat raw food on a very short budget. A while back I read somewhere where Victoria bought a 25 pound bag of raw grain because of Y2K incase something bad was to happen. She figured they, family of 4, could live off that 25 pound bag for 1 year. How much is a 25 pound bag? Not much!

[sport]

I think that most, if not all, famines are caused by politics.
I recall reading that there was never a famine in India when they were in charge of their own destinies but that there was famine when the British were in charge.
At the time of the famine in Ireland food was being exported because the landlords needed the income.
If we can sort out the politics that is causeing the problems then we would be able to provide for all.
I think that the line at the bottom of all my posts expresses how I feel about this point.

[sport]

I want to rant about something now.
Pumpkin was never part of the diet in this country and I would venture to say that 99.99% of the population have never tasted it either raw or cooked.
I get a little annoyed at this time of year when I go in to the stores and see so many pumpkins for sale and I know that all the good food inside is going to be removed and put in the trash just so that some spoiled kids can have a lantern in their house.

[swingbolder]

the root of the problem is overpopulation, which is exacerbated by politics and human greed.

The only way it has been possible to feed everyone our overpopulated earth is through the use in recent decades of massive amounts of petrochemicals in the way of pesticides, fertilizers, automated tractors, etc. Only through the use of petroleum have farmers been able to get the enormous yields of crops necessary to feed our billions ("green revolution"). This green revolution has caused a huge population explosion, to the point where we are now crowded to nearly nine billion on this earth. And so on, like a feedback loop.:eek:

Unfortunately, big agribusiness has also caused soil erosion, ground water depletion, and other environmental ills which grow worse each year. This has the effect of decreasing yields, resulting in more dependence on fossil fuels.

Make no mistake, we raw fooders who rely daily on eating food grown hundreds and thousands of miles away from us are a part of this ultimately unsustainable system.

Not eating raw food would in no way alleviate the problem,as the problem is much more complicated than just one of "raw vs. cooked."

A less densely-populated earth would help the problem (less people using less resources), but don't count on that happening anytime soon.

[Lay-Lay]

I don't think we are overpopulated. Maybe in some metropolitian areas, but there is soooooo much wide open spaces. Either way it's not a problem that man will be able to solve.

[misslinda]

My question is actually more like this:
If everyone, every single human being on earth, alive right now ( and not after some radical population decimation) ate only raw vegan food, possibly also including sproutet grains and legumes, would there be enough food?

But, in my process of deciding to go raw or not, I do want to find out if this would make my life more economicaly and ecologicaly sound, or if it would make my behaviour even less applicable to all the other humans on this planet.
So, any answers to the question if raw food is universaly applicable?

These are loaded questions but your first question here is what I thinking of yesterday. These are my thoughts......

I believe that there would be more than enough food if everyone ate raw b/c as you progress in raw, you really appreciate what [real] food is and how it tastes and how it is cultivated. If not for the "organic" movement, we would have lost the farming husbandry that use to exist where it wasn't uncommmon to SEE a farm land growing fruits and vegetables with care and authenticity. This lifestyle empowers and inspires people to "farm," grow and cultivate real food.

More so, as we are nourished properly and bringing our health to optimal levels, we don't need as much as food as we thought we needed while we were malnourished on SAD. Also, the fact that raw fooders don't use a whole lot of heating electricity, we are conserving our natural resources. .....

Simplicity to me is the opposite of "modernization" of our foods and lifestyle. Perhaps, society is afraid what simplicty looks like,taste lie or feels like???? Why do grains and such have to be associated with being poor or tagged with a thrid world country?? To me that is one's own take on life. That is a whole new other issue in itself, about why a country is poor--I don't believe that grains have any relative issue to it.

Interesting topic.

;)

[Pailani]

The vegetarian books are always saying that if we using so much land for grazing cattle and grew crops that people could eat directly, there'd be more than enough to feed the world. Politics might interfere with distribution, but there's plenty of available land to do it. I imagine that wheat fields could be turned into orchards and spinach plantations.

But if it happened overnight, that might not work. There's the problem of what to do with all that cattle and grain (which mostly feeds cattle these days, anyway!) And then the land would have to be reclaimed and replanted. That would take time. In the meantime, maybe there would be a shortage of fresh produce.

But smart planning could make the transition slow enough to ease those issues. The real obstacle would be convincing everyone around the world to eat more produce instead of grain and meat.

Also, a related problem - in one of the South American countries, there's a worm parasite that invades everything, it works its way inside the leaves so it doesn't wash off. You can't even eat lettuce without cooking it first because of the parasite. So that would be another problem to overcome.

[vwinters]

I have also thought about the overall environmental impact of some typical raw food diets. In particular, I eat a lot of bananas, and I don’t think we grow any here in the US do we? When I followed a cooked vegan diet I ate fewer fresh fruits and veggies that were shipped here from other states or countries. I’d like to eat more locally grown produce but that becomes more challenging in the winter. It’s got me considering doing a mini green house to at least grow lettuce and maybe tomatoes. Anyone ever heard of someone growing large numbers of bananas in a green house?
VW

[sport]

In Europe there is a system called "set aside". This is a system that pays farmers to not use land because we are producing too much and this leads to what have been reffered to as "mountains".
We have had beef mountains and butter mountains and lots of other mountains and then this leads to what they call "dumping".
Dumping is where they sell the stuf into third world countries at a very cheap price and this disrupts the local economies.
We are not short of land to produce food and if we ever become short of land I reckon that there are enough golf courses in the world to cater for another billion people if we have a people's revolt and take them over.
And a final point. The amount of water used every day to water the aforementioned golf courses is enough to give fresh water to half the population of the world.
And yes I am a golf widow but that has not caused me to feel this way.

[Lay-Lay]

In Europe there is a system called "set aside". This is a system that pays farmers to not use land because we are producing too much and this leads to what have been reffered to as "mountains".
We have had beef mountains and butter mountains and lots of other mountains and then this leads to what they call "dumping".
Dumping is where they sell the stuf into third world countries at a very cheap price and this disrupts the local economies.
We are not short of land to produce food and if we ever become short of land I reckon that there are enough golf courses in the world to cater for another billion people if we have a people's revolt and take them over.
And a final point. The amount of water used every day to water the aforementioned golf courses is enough to give fresh water to half the population of the world.
And yes I am a golf widow but that has not caused me to feel this way.

here the government pays you to farm

[codajess]

I didn't read the other posts.

All I can say is it's called supply and demand. If there isn't a demand for it, it won't be supplied.

Also, there IS enough food out there. It's food distribution that's the problem.

[juliebove]

I know that this sounds like a weird question, but what do you think? Yeah, sure, you're not eating any animals or animal products any more, but that's not my point. Instead, isn't it very arrogant of (relative to poorer countries) rich westerners to refuse to eat perfectly good food (you know, grains and legumes for example) while people in the rest of the world are just getting by on this kind of food, or are starving? Sure, you could argue that just because you eat expensive plant food, this doesn't mean that other people can't eat cheap plant food. But still, what is your opinion on this?

This takes me back to my high school biology class where we studied this same subject. People in poorer countries that is, who are starving. There really isn't much we can do to help them. If we give them food, certainly they might thrive (assuming we don't give them food that causes more problems, like milk) but then they might reproduce. This leaves even more people in an even more dire situation.

Certainly we could provide help in things like education, tools and resources to help them grow their own food and make the best of what they do have. But if they are living in an area with poor soil, lack of water or even a corrupt goverment, this type of help may be little to no actual help.

Some might say it boils down to survival of the fittest.

[dreamrawalwz]

Think about it, there is SO much land that is used to feed cattle and that is harvested to use in processed foods. Nearly ALL pre-packaged items started in the fields. If those were stopped we could turn those fields into more fruit/veggie farms. There would be plenty of room and food.

[DavidZaneMason]

Opinion:

-If you are not eating fruits and vegetables...grains & nuts...then what is the alternative? Meat. Meat certainly takes far more effort, land & resources to produce.

-David Mason

[greeninloanageles1]

I always thought, that it takes much more resources to grow grain, than to grow fruit, greens and veggies. Am I wrong?
The only advantage then would be that grain can keep very long.
Sustainable living can help us and poor countries as well.

[druid]

I know that this sounds like a weird question, but what do you think? Yeah, sure, you're not eating any animals or animal products any more, but that's not my point. Instead, isn't it very arrogant of (relative to poorer countries) rich westerners to refuse to eat perfectly good food (you know, grains and legumes for example) while people in the rest of the world are just getting by on this kind of food, or are starving? Sure, you could argue that just because you eat expensive plant food, this doesn't mean that other people can't eat cheap plant food. But still, what is your opinion on this?


I agree with you. 100%. A lot of people have their heads in the clouds but dont have their feet on the ground. Happy to see you have both.

Keep posting. dont let them get you down :)

[Revvell]

So, what's your solution? We "rich westerners" should eat what others are "getting by" on? Who will that help?


I know that this sounds like a weird question, but what do you think? Yeah, sure, you're not eating any animals or animal products any more, but that's not my point. Instead, isn't it very arrogant of (relative to poorer countries) rich westerners to refuse to eat perfectly good food (you know, grains and legumes for example) while people in the rest of the world are just getting by on this kind of food, or are starving? Sure, you could argue that just because you eat expensive plant food, this doesn't mean that other people can't eat cheap plant food. But still, what is your opinion on this?

[Goldsplinter]

I agree with what I think Revvell implied.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Instead, isn't it very arrogant of (relative to poorer countries) rich westerners to refuse to eat perfectly good food (you know, grains and legumes for example) while people in the rest of the world are just getting by on this kind of food, or are starving? Sure, you could argue that just because you eat expensive plant food, this doesn't mean that other people can't eat cheap plant food.

If someone feels unethical or arrogant about eating fresh fruits and veggies, they should likewise feel that way about using telephones, computers, cars, clothes, hot water, electricity etc.


My question is actually more like this:
If everyone, every single human being on earth, alive right now ( and not after some radical population decimation) ate only raw vegan food, possibly also including sproutet grains and legumes, would there be enough food?

If one fruit tree can feed several families generation after generation and it takes up the same amount of room as a cow, then we are actually conserving resources. If you replace a cow's food resource (grain field) with a fruit orchard you could literally be feeding thousands upon thousands for many, many generations. The abundance of fresh fruits would be almost unlimited! :)

[druid]

If someone feels unethical or arrogant about eating fresh fruits and veggies, they should likewise feel that way about using telephones, computers, cars, clothes, hot water, electricity etc.



If one fruit tree can feed several families generation after generation and it takes up the same amount of room as a cow, then we are actually conserving resources. If you replace a cow's food resource (grain field) with a fruit orchard you could literally be feeding thousands upon thousands for many, many generations. The abundance of fresh fruits would be almost unlimited! :)

only if fresh fruits could give us all the vitamins, minerals, etc we need. otherwise this logic is flawed using only fruits.

[Sharon in Colorado]

only if fresh fruits could give us all the vitamins, minerals, etc we need. otherwise this logic is flawed using only fruits.

Greens and other veggies are likewise easy to grow which makes up the balance of nutrients. Just making the point that fruit orchards seem to be more productive than cattle or grain.

[Nenyath]

I really thought I postec yesterday, but something must have messed up in the process.. FeelingGape, look at it this way. By eating at McD we support the destruction of rainforest in South America so that the cattle used for beef can graze. By eating organic bananas we support healthy farms in South America, providing jobs for poore people who can work at a safe farm where they get a fiar price for their produce (opposed to the conventional where pesticides and such have/has been widely used and where bananas are sold all too cheaply). Further more there have been cases where the western world dumps dangerous waste on the shores on Africa, raw food are much less packaged than all your conventional products. I get 4 kg of bananas in one plastic bag, thats a lot of food with next to no waste. I see on this board people getting more and more aware of what they buy, if it is organic, where it comes from, why and how. We all do what we can and we can't help getting more and more aware. Most people I know here from Denmark does not care where their food comes from, all that matters is the prize.. By going raw we are not only doing ourselves a favour, but also the world! Hoa can raw not be ethical? :o

Fly forever free!

[swingbolder]

Organic farm laborers barely make minimum wage, do not have benefits, have high rates of injury, etc. We can feel good about ourselves for eating organic bc it's not destructive to the environment, but not with respect to laborers' rights, working conditions or anything like that:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/mello

Also, big agribusiness banana plantations have a long, sorry history of being very exploitative down in Central America, the Caribbean, even to the point of helping to prop up repressive regimes and overthrowing democratically elected leaders. This is going back about a hundred years: Honduras, Costa Rica, etc.

The way I see it, it's hard to keep one's hands cleans no matter what one eats.

[Nenyath]

Swingbolder, I do not know how organic works in USA, in Denmark though we have a brand called Marx Havelar, it should insure that the workers have gotten fair wages and fair prices for their products. There have been some discussion about it here in Denmark but I choose to trust.. And if nothing else, then I am at least sure people working with the produce do not have to work with chemicals by buying organic. But you are right, it is very hard to keep your hands clean, all we can do is our best..

Fly forever free..

[rawpriestess]

Well, I have pondered this idea, and it reminds me of when I was very young and asked my mom a question, so I will answer with what she told me.

Me at age 8 or 9, "Mom, we learned is school today about the people in India, who don't eat cows because they are sacred, but they are starving, why don't they just eat the cows and not starve."

Mom: "That would be like us eating our dog, he is special to us, we don't see him as food, unless you see something as food, you would never eat it, and if you did eat it, your heart and soul might wither because of it."

Me: "Oh, that is why some people eat cows and some people eat dogs and some peopel eat only vegetables, they don't see the other stuff as food."

Mom: "Yes, darling, it just doesn't even exsist in their lives."

Now, I don't see cows as food anymore, so no matter what happens in the world, I'm not eating one,
and I never saw dogs as food, so I could never have eaten one, and other countries don't see things as food either.

So, if you don't see it as something, it doesn't exsist in your life, it's the law of attraction again.

[lissomllama]

Hmm, not to sound harsh, but that's just the thing: Grains,legumes, meat etc. is not 'perfectly good food'. It is junk that causes disease. People in third world countries are mostly being kept that way because no one will tell them that they can just eat green leaves of the trees or plant some fruit. Granted, many places don't even have vegetation growing at all, but many DO.

These poor people have been conditioned (mainly by America) to believe that they can't live without meat and milk and canned food, so the viscious cycle continues. We even waste money giving them food that isn't healthy. Instead, People need to go to these countries with huge bags of seeds and gardening tools and plant self sustaining plants and trees that give life bearing fruits and veggies and greens and nuts and seeds and these people need to be taught that they can live better than ever this way. Our mother earth is here to sustain us. ALL of us. It is right under our noses (and our feet). We can grow anything we wish to. And it just so happens that many of the third world countries are in greatgrowing regions for wonderful tropical fruits and veggies.

We need to open our minds and our eyes and realize that our world is self sustaining and we just give it a chance.

But even if that weren't the case, I would still eat raw because my health is the most important thing. I know that in the end I am feeling great, spreading positive energy around, healing, helping animals etc.

Remember that we are all meant to eat raw, so how could it be unethical in any way? The common root problem to so many things these days is cooked food and commercialism. Remove the problem, not the solution.

[sport]

Organic farm laborers barely make minimum wage, do not have benefits, have high rates of injury, etc. We can feel good about ourselves for eating organic bc it's not destructive to the environment, but not with respect to laborers' rights, working conditions or anything like that:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20060911/mello

Also, big agribusiness banana plantations have a long, sorry history of being very exploitative down in Central America, the Caribbean, even to the point of helping to prop up repressive regimes and overthrowing democratically elected leaders. This is going back about a hundred years: Honduras, Costa Rica, etc.

The way I see it, it's hard to keep one's hands cleans no matter what one eats.

Over here we have the choice. Many products (such as tea, coffee and bananas) are available as FAIRTRADE items. This is strictly controled and you know that by buying them you are garanteed that the producer is getting a fair price.

[goodbeets]

Living in Maine I am often considering the high price of my food in terms of fuel pollution because most of it is trucked in. Even though I buy a lot of local produce there is yet to be enough grown year round. New technologies are slowly entering to make that so but if the trucks stopped running my diet would have to change. I would be eating a lot more seaweed and sea-foods and possibly some venison. I also think about folks in far norhtern climates like Greenland, Iceland, the Inuit, Mongolia, even the Masai who eat mostly a meat based diet and they are healthy (I am not certain of lifespan, if that even means anything) and they are healthy until you introduce a western colonialist diet. It sure is a great topic to ponder!! I also try to buy far trade fruits so I know that farmers are being paid fair prices overseas.