Many concerns addressed here

[Sharon in Colorado]

Great interview with Dr. Graham. I did not even know that some people on high raw fat diets actually developed heart disease and diabetes...interesting

http://www.rawveganradio.podomatic.com/ scroll down the page

[luckitri]

OK Sharon, I barely log onto the computer here. I am very interested in this topic. Do I have to listen to the radio show or is the information transcribed somewhere that I can read it?

[Sheryl]

You need to listen to the Audio.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Yes, the audio is awesome. Scroll all the way down and click on white box that says "To Listen to this Show, click here".

[LightLover]

I still can't reach the interview. Would be great if someone can make a summary here of the highlights in a few sentences for all the others

thanks, LL

[Sharon in Colorado]

Some great highlights that stood out in my mind:

(Paraphrasing what Dr. Graham stated)


+ The speed does not matter as much as the direction you are going. It took time (I believe 7 years is what he said) for him to figure out which was the best raw diet.

+ A low-fat diet (10% or less of your calories coming from fat) is recommended by the best doctors, conventional, vegan, etc. and is the healthiest.

+ He used the cooked carbohydate guidelines (70-80% of your calories coming from carbohydrates) but used the raw equivelent, which is fruit (carbs = sugars)

+ As a doctor he has seen patients developing heart disease, diabetes and other ailments while on a high fat raw diet.

+ "Detox" as we know it occurs very infrequently on the 80-10-10 (80% carbs, 10% protein, 10% fat in caloric values)

+ Cravings for starches - pasta, rice, potatoes, corn etc. does not happen when eating enough fruit.

+ The most successful way to eat 80-10-10 is to eat a fruit meal at breakfast until satisfied, a fruit meal for lunch until satisfied, and fruit before the dinner salad. If fruit is not eaten before the salad, sweet/fat cravings may happen.

+ His 16 month daughter was breastfed exclusively for the first year, and then they gave her the food she desired. She loves all fruits and vegetables but especially likes mangoes, bananas and tomatoes.

+ He has found that the athletes he does consultations with do their very best on the 80-10-10, and many times beat their personal best. One particular female in her late 30's now runs better than she did in her early 20's. Another cut 30 seconds off her time in a running competition (can't remember the exact details of this).

+ He rarely fasts as his diet gives him the best health. He has not been sick in almost 30 years. His idea of fasting is a total rest, no activity, food etc. He states that when he starts his activity for the day, his "nighttime fast" is over. At one time he did a 30 day water fast but has not felt the need to since. He says if he does not feel like himself, a small amount of extra rest will remedy it, no more than a days' worth.

+ He believes that smoothies, green smoothies, etc. are not as optimal as eating whole foods as the teeth, salivatory glands, and other digestive functions are not doing the work they were meant to for the body. Although he recommends this for transitioning or those who can't chew well, he believes that whole food is the best for health.

+ As to the nutrients that become more "bio-available" when something is cooked: He says 1 out of 1000 nutrients basically are more bioavailable when cooked, so why cook a tomato just to get that one nutrient when you are destroying the other 999. Also who is to say that the one nutrient is necessary in that amount?

+ He has found that people (his patients) who seemed to be low in B12 were put on a short fast and their levels improved by the end of the fast. He also stated that B12 deficiency was orginally discovered amongst the meat-eaters, and now it's a big concern amongst vegetarians and vegans. He did not at all seem concerned about B12 deficiency.

I can't think of anything else although there seemed to be so much more information.

If you listened to this and remember something else, please feel free to add to this list - or point out any corrections I need to make to mine!.

[LightLover]

Great, thanks for lending your ears.


LL

[LightLover]

Sharon, what I am most amazed at in the raw food world is the different opinions of all kind of specialists (doctors, microbiologists etc... ) about the 80/10/10 diet.

I know that every diet is working differently for every person, and something that fitts badly to one will fitt better to another person, but there must be general biological grounds in life, and in a group with different opinions not everyone can be right simultanously about biological processes.
I am wonderng what the general leading arguments will be.


LL

[Sharon in Colorado]

I think there will always be arguments against the 80-10-10. Another thing I remember Dr. D saying was just to try it for yourself. Kind of like Alissa, saying "try raw for 30 days"..." try 80-10-10 for 30 days and see how you feel.

That would really be the only way to see if it works for you. Because we could spin our wheels debating issues about it until Kingdom Come, but not get anywhere if we don't see personal results.

[Mishelly]

+ Cravings for starches - pasta, rice, potatoes, corn etc. does not happen when eating enough fruit.

I'd like to put this statement to the test. Does anybody have this experience?

[Sharon in Colorado]

When I've eaten high fruit/low fat it is a lot easier on cravings. I have not done it for extensive periods of time, however quite a few people from this message board have eaten this way, Raw Nora, Fiddler, Gosia to name a few.

[Revvell]

I'd like to put this statement to the test. Does anybody have this experience?

I mostly eat fruit ~ then crave fats.

[Gosia]

If I said all that I want to say, this post would explode ha ha ha!

To summarize some things, I am finding after three years of being raw that I am still learning! In particular, I am finding that I still need to make improvements to my diet, or I will not feel at my best. It's as if my body was constantly saying "Yes, I like what you've done, great, thanks. Now, I also want ...". I am finding that these improvements are going in the direction of
* simpler eating
* more fruit
* less fat
Yesterday, for example, I thought that I needed some fat, or I would not satisfy my hunger. But also, I realized recently that a lof of holding back begins in my mind. So, instead of relying on my preconcieved ideas, I went for sweet Fuji apples. And ... I felt great!

Yes, I can verify that my experience when eating enough fruit has been that I do not get craving for complex, cooked carbohydrates (pasta, rice, potatoes, corn). I also discovered that when I think that I crave fats, but have fruit instead, I feel great. As Doug has said:

"The Four Major Warning Signs of Eating Insufficient Quantities of Fresh Fruit
by Dr. Doug Graham

1. If you ever crave sweets at the end of any meal, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the beginning of that meal.
2. If you ever desire heavy foods (avocado, nuts, seeds, etc.) at the end of a meal, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the beginning of that meal.
3 If at any time of day you wish to consume refined sugars such as candy, alcohol, chocolate, cakes, or dried fruit, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the preceding meal.
4. If at any time you are willing to even consider starchy foods (bread, rice, potatoes, corn, pasta, etc) as a source of sustenance, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the preceding meal.

The solution, in all four instances, is to eat fresh fruit.

Learn from your experiences. Eat sufficiently of fresh fruit and all food cravings will cease. OF course, continue to eat all the fresh tender greens that you care for, as well."

My recent realization that I need to make yet again further improvements to my diet and the only thing that holds me back from it is my own preconceived ideas, set me off to the new level. I'm so glad for it!

I enjoyed the interview with Doug immensly. All that he said, clicked with me. I highly recommend it to everyone, especially those who struggle with raw.

Gosia

[jaurequi]

I'd like to put this statement to the test. Does anybody have this experience?

I did this for a very long time, but those cravings never went away; instead, I overate fruit and became nutritionally deficient.

Best,

[madmel]

I am a bit afraid to go on 811. I don't know why. Maybe it's because I love my greens so much?

I have cut out a lot of my fats and reduced the intake of nuts/oil and avos. But my greens I just adore - I could eat a salad three times a day and actually I often do.

When I try to have an all fruit day, I find myself hungry again after only a short time. That's after eating a lot of high energy fruit like mango, papaya, pineapple, bananas and such. Durian keeps me going a longer time, but that has a lot of fat actually.

Any examples of people who transitioned from a very "green" to an 811 diet?

mel

[daisyduke]

Doug recommends the highest amount of greens than any other raw food 'guru' out there. He says that lettuce combines well with any fruit. If you wish to eat it throughout the day with your fruit - feel free!

[Gosia]

Madmel, 811 is not a green-less diet at all. In fact, people on 811 may consume more greens (which have little calories) than those who eat more fat. So yes, you CAN have all your greens!

By the way, the excerpt from the forthcoming book by Doug:

"Excerpt from The 80/10/10 Diet
The Ratio for Humans … By Design

People ask me how the 80/10/10 diet can apply equally well to people of all ages, sizes, activity levels, etc. “Aren’t we all individuals, with different nutritional requirements and different bodily makeups?” they ask.

Despite all the hype about metabolic typing, I do not believe this ratio varies to any appreciable degree on the basis of our individual needs. (See the sidebar entitled “What about individual differences?” on page 242.)
Like high-performance race cars, the human body is designed to get its best results from a very specific fuel mixture. Think about it: can you find any example in nature of a mammalian species
whose individual members eat foods from completely different categories, based upon their blood type, their geographical location, their metabolic type, or any other factor? Can you imagine a “kapha” bear eating more fat than a “pitta” bear? Or a “fast-oxidizing”monkey avoiding bananas because they are too high in sugar? This is nonsense.

Don't let anyone tell you that humans are the one exception in the animal kingdom.

The fact is, Nature has seen fit to provide the ideal food for every creature on Earth, and all creatures of similar type eat similarly. For example, horses—and all creatures that look like horses (zebras, donkeys, mules)—eat from essentially the same category of foods—those for which their biological systems were designed. Do not let anyone tell you that humans are the one exception to this rule (called the law of similars) in all of the animal kingdom, for there are no exceptions: animals that are anatomically and physiologically similar thrive on similar foods. Cows eat grass, leopards eat meat, and hummingbirds eat nectar. There is simply no need to complicate this simple program, presented in perfection by nature in thousands of examples.

All of the creatures that are anatomically and physiologically like us (known as the anthropoid primates: gorillas, orangutans, chimpanzees, and bonobos) thrive on a low-fat diet that is predominated by fruits and vegetables. Their caloronutrient ratios closely approximate 80/10/10. With the exception of the gorilla, whose great weight makes it almost impossible to climb the skinny branches of trees to procure fruit, they get more than 80% of their calories from the carbohydrates in fruit. The combined caloronutrient average for chimpanzees, bonobos, and orangutans is about 88/7/5. Add in the gorilla’s numbers, which come closer to 70% carbohydrate, and the average decreases, making the ratio almost exactly 80/10/10 for all of our anthropoid relatives.

The actual foods humans eat differ according to season, geography, availability, personal preference, etc., but not according to anything pertaining to our physiology. The total number of calories each person needs varies according to many factors, including gender, size, age, activity level, fitness goals, health status, and so forth. But the ratio of carbohydrates to protein to fats we need remains relatively the same. This is true regardless of the dietary specifics, food choices, or total volume consumed. As I explain in Chapter 5, no amount of adaptation or relocation has changed the basic digestive physiology with which we have been endowed since the beginning of time."

I never measure my ratios, and follow my senses rather than calculations. But I do find that I feel my best on fruit-based raw diet.

Gosia

[Scoobiedoo]

Great interview with Dr. Graham. I did not even know that some people on high raw fat diets actually developed heart disease and diabetes...interesting

http://www.rawveganradio.podomatic.com/ scroll down the page

Sharon,
I'm an RN student and LPN student. Fat is the leading cause of heart disease, plugged arteries, etc.

What do you mean by RAW fat? Its actually the consumption of the BAD FATS (animal fats) that is killing people, along with lack of exercise, smoking, etc. The body does need GOOD FATS like those that come from avocado's, olive oil, fish oils, etc.

[Gosia]

Just found something:

"I don't eat greens daily, but still average 3% of my total calories from
greens.
Dr D"

3% of total calories, assuming about 2500 kcal per day, is about 10 cups of romaine lettuce per day.

Gosia

[musicalfruit]

I am wondering if there is a problem with eating alot of fruit and candida? Anyone care to elaborate??
What about food intollerance, has anyone experienced a healing of this by going raw?
Thanks!

[misslinda]

Sharon, thank you for outlining Doug's interview.

I've always been intrigued by Doug and his photos definately show what he preaches! He looks quite amazing :)

[madmel]

Gosia,

Thank you very much for this information!

mel

[greeninloanageles1]

But animals rarely have access to such a sweet fruit as our markets and gardens carry...And when I tried for 2 weeks high fruit, I actually was disgusted by sweet taste after a while. Although I do agree- I felt stronger, no cravings for cooked, but it might have been because the same time I did not use oils or salt in any form other than from fruits and veggies.
Maybe the best choice would be to eat less sweet fruit.
Long time high fruit eaters, would you measure your saliva ph in the morning before any drink or food?

[LightLover]

I am wondering if there is a problem with eating alot of fruit and candida? Anyone care to elaborate??
What about food intollerance, has anyone experienced a healing of this by going raw?
Thanks!

If you read Dr. Young (book: ph miracle) he says that yeast, mold , and fungus crave for sugar and will grow and grow and than you get a micro-organism overgrowth, and these creatures poison us with mycotoxins..

So the answer is yes!


LL

[LightLover]

Long time high fruit eaters, would you measure your saliva ph in the morning before any drink or food?


Would be very interesting to see some reactions on this

LL

[Sharon in Colorado]

What do you mean by RAW fat? Its actually the consumption of the BAD FATS (animal fats) that is killing people, along with lack of exercise, smoking, etc. The body does need GOOD FATS like those that come from avocado's, olive oil, fish oils, etc.

Yes there is the good fat/bad fat theory. Reasonably, raw vegan fat wouldn't be as damaging to a body as cooked fat, animal or vegan.

However, in his practice he has seen the damage from a high intake of raw fat on the diet. I don't know what percentage he is talking about. He has mentioned before that many on the raw food diet will get more fat than a vegan diet, upwards of 60%.

I could see this as things on a vegan diet such as beans, rice, etc. would make up for the caloric intake, whereas many people on raw who don't eat those items don't eat enough fruit, and make up for it with fat.

He never said "no" fat, just "low" fat.

There was a discussion somewhere, don't remember where, how a proponent of flax oil (Udo) even suggests no more than 30% fat in the diet.

Personally I do not believe the hype that oils in general are particularly "good" for anyone, fish, coconut, flax or olive, or the various margarine-like spreads out there because they are not a whole food.

And how do we know that fish oil is even raw? It is probably heated in the processing. And something else done to it to get rid of the smell. I cannot imagine ingesting that now - I did in the past and burped up the most horrid taste. and to think of where and how this oil is extracted makes me shudder to think about.

Another thing I recall from this interview is the suggestion to eat the olive instead of the olive oil, or the coconut instead of the coconut oil, etc.

[Sharon in Colorado]

"The Four Major Warning Signs of Eating Insufficient Quantities of Fresh Fruit
by Dr. Doug Graham

1. If you ever crave sweets at the end of any meal, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the beginning of that meal.
2. If you ever desire heavy foods (avocado, nuts, seeds, etc.) at the end of a meal, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the beginning of that meal.
3 If at any time of day you wish to consume refined sugars such as candy, alcohol, chocolate, cakes, or dried fruit, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the preceding meal.
4. If at any time you are willing to even consider starchy foods (bread, rice, potatoes, corn, pasta, etc) as a source of sustenance, you have undereaten of sufficient sweetness from fresh fruit at the preceding meal.

The solution, in all four instances, is to eat fresh fruit.



Thank you for that Gosia. There's always so much info from him. I am sure with 300 lectures a year he must always keep the information interesting and flowing.

ITA about the huge amount of greens recommended. I don't eat nearly the amount of greens I should, remember raw Janie's food log with 16 cups of greens a day in such a tiny body, LOL. I don't see the link but it used to be http://www.ringlet.org/

Maybe some of the nutritional deficiencies were from a lack of greens?

[Juicyfruit]

I know that cooked fats are different that raw fats in causing health problems, but I just don't see how raw fats could cause a problem at all. We need fats to level out the intake of sugar or we end up with diabetes. You would have to have a constant intake of fruit and sugars to keep blood sugar levels stable. Fat slows down the absorption of sugars and keeps the blood sugar level, thus keeping cravings at bay. I found some really good information on sugar and fat on waisays.com under Foods Causing Diabetes:

Sugars and fats are (besides alcohol) the only sources of energy in your blood. (redundant protein is converted into sugars and fats) You need fat to stabilize the need for glucose ; Sugars supply you with 'fast' energy, but this source is exhausted pretty fast too. Fats keep you going all day, and while you're asleep.

When a meal mainly consists of protein** or carbs, the blood glucose level increases much more than when also much fat is absorbed. Also, there are less fatty acids available and thus more glucose is utilized for energy. And because of this, the blood-glucose level decreases sooner too. So, there is a much stronger fluctuation of the blood-glucose level.

Consuming too little fat causes your blood-glucose level to fluctuate too much, exhausting the insulin-energy system, which causes diabetes.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Juicyfruit it might be a good idea to bring that to Doug's discussion board, at vegsource. I am sure many of the folks there could give input on that.

According to him, he has been advocating and using a low-fat approach for many years, and has advised many patients and athletes with this type of diet successfully, and it was the high amount of fat in their diets actually causing all the problems.

I do know that diabetics are also told to keep their fat consumption on the low side as well.

Again, I think that people mistakenly equate his formula with zero fat, when in actuality it is low-fat.

[Revvell]

If you read Dr. Young (book: ph miracle) he says that yeast, mold , and fungus crave for sugar and will grow and grow and than you get a micro-organism overgrowth, and these creatures poison us with mycotoxins..

So the answer is yes!


LL

Yet, if I'm reading you correctly, Jinjee has stated that, when she ate even a small amount of cooked food she'd have problems with candida yet, when 100% raw she could eat as much as she liked and no problem.

This is my experience as well.

Revvell

[LightLover]

Yet, if I'm reading you correctly, Jinjee has stated that, when she ate even a small amount of cooked food she'd have problems with candida yet, when 100% raw she could eat as much as she liked and no problem.

This is my experience as well.

Revvell


That is an interesting point. Maybe all the dangers Dr Young is pointing at
while eating much sweet (fruit) are being lowered in a high or 100% rawfood diet. I will have a look if he also has a discussionforum

LL

[LightLover]

People ask me how the 80/10/10 diet can apply equally well to people of all ages, sizes, activity levels, etc. “Aren’t we all individuals, with different nutritional requirements and different bodily makeups?” they ask.

Despite all the hype about metabolic typing, I do not believe this ratio varies to any appreciable degree on the basis of our individual needs. (See the sidebar entitled “What about individual differences?” on page 242.)
Like high-performance race cars, the human body is designed to get its best results from a very specific fuel mixture. Think about it: can you find any example in nature of a mammalian species
whose individual members eat foods from completely different categories, based upon their blood type, their geographical location, their metabolic type, or any other factor? Can you imagine a “kapha” bear eating more fat than a “pitta” bear? Or a “fast-oxidizing”monkey avoiding bananas because they are too high in sugar? This is nonsense.
Gosia[/QUOTE]


That is what I mean. Altough there are differences how people are reacting to a diet, there must be a underlying leading truth. Not everything can be true simultanously. People differ, but not that much that programms can differ completely (see quote above, pharaphrased by Gosia, from an intervieuw with Dr Graham)

LL

[daisyduke]

In response to the candida problem, Dr. Doug always states that FAT is the problem - not sugar! In fact, all sugar metabolic disorders (diabetes, candida, chronic fatigue, etc.) are a misnomer - it isn't the sugar at all - it is the fat. The fat prevents the sugar from connecting up with the insulin and so the body keeps creating insulin until they finally connect. But by that time, the body has created so much insulin that there isn't enough sugar for it. This creates a see-saw effect of too much sugar, then too low sugar. This is explained very well in Dr. Doug's "How Much Fruit is Too Much Fruit?" CD.

[rawfigure]

In response to the candida problem, Dr. Doug always states that FAT is the problem - not sugar! In fact, all sugar metabolic disorders (diabetes, candida, chronic fatigue, etc.) are a misnomer - it isn't the sugar at all - it is the fat. The fat prevents the sugar from connecting up with the insulin and so the body keeps creating insulin until they finally connect. But by that time, the body has created so much insulin that there isn't enough sugar for it. This creates a see-saw effect of too much sugar, then too low sugar. This is explained very well in Dr. Doug's "How Much Fruit is Too Much Fruit?" CD.

I can beleive this due to my own expereince. I was having re occuring yeast infections and eating fruit and nuts. I reduced the fats the last two week (not quite to10% yet) but found no the yeast infection went away, no treatment.

[fiddler]

Thanks for the wonderful post Sharon.

I've yet to hear the interview as I've been busy. But according to your notes, the interview is consistent with what I've already read on Graham's eating practices. And, I must say, your notes are excellent and I agree with every one of 'em.

Gosia and others, thanks for your wonderful input.

I look forward to hearing the interview soon.

Cheers,
Fiddler