Acidic saliva- bad teeth- too much fruit?

[greeninloanageles1]

Okey, so I am looking for answers, and the same time trying to make sense from all the information I know and all the experience - my and others.
So how much I understand our base alkalinity of saliva(waking saliva tested with strips before any food or drink) should be around 7.0 (6.8 to 7.2). My is just 6.00 - raw for 9 months. maybe that's why my teeth are not doing good, not that they ever were good.
I was thinking about Dr. Graham's aproach, even went to his lecture, but to tell you the truth I was very dissapointed in his apearance - not that he looks bad for his age man, but that after almost 30 years on raw and 28 on his recommended diet, he does not look much better than that.
Ann Wigmore did not have gray hair at the age of 85, but she ate tons of mineral rich greens.
I met a guy in raw food potluck, who looks like 25 at 41! He also sleeps outside, which I believe add to your health a lot too(indoor air is 10 times worse than outdoor even in the city.)
The last straw was the post on this board about a 3 year old who was raw from the birth, and eating mostly fruit, who got several small cavities already!
I do agree with Dr. Graham about too much fat, and avoiding processed raw fat like oils, eliminating salt. What bothers me is high sugar content.
So here are my questions - tell me what you think:

Does salt draw alkaline minerals from the body(since it does include chlorine)?
Does fruit sugar do the same?
If I decide not to eat high sugar fruit and not too much fat(mainly veggies, non sweet fruit and greens), will I get enough calories not to become very thin? Did any of you did it?
If you use high fruit-low fat aproach for several months, what is your saliva ph in the morning?

[sport]

I am dissapointed to read that you think that Dr Graham does not look as young as he should.
I could say that looks may not be everything but I guess there is no reason for your outside to look old and your inside to look young.
I am only recently attempting to follow his way of thinking. It makes sense to me that fruit is our natural food but I am having difficulty changing over to it as much as I should.
I have decided to cut back and transition.
I have not been trying it long enough to be any help with your problem.

[vgloveforlife]

I could never do all fruit because I crave greens and dinner foods not sweets and dessert. I can't answer all your questions but I would like to say that when I started adding lots of fruit to my diet in the last week (specifically bananas, tomatoes, nectarines and apples) my canker sore returned and my teeth started to hurt. I also gained a little bit of weight which is okay with me though.

I'm not sure why Dr.Graham thinks fruit is more of our natural food than greens.

[alex]

Having studied this for a long time now, I can not agree with Dr Graham's way of thinking. Sugar is sugar is sugar - fructose is fructose no matter the source, glucose is glucose no matter the source etc. and is handled by the body in specific ways following concrete biochemical pathways.

I do not know why he is opposed to fat. There are good fats and bad fats. The bad fats must, of course be avoided, but the good fats are absolutely necessary for near optimum health. At least 50% of our brains are fat. The cell membrane of every one of the 80 trillion cells (or there abouts) in our bodies is composed of phopholipids (lipids = fats). The hormones in our bodies, which really control just about everything have a high lipid content.

We need salt. The problem is that we need the Na (sodium) to be at an ideal ratio with K (pottasium). Again, in every one of our trillions of cells, transport of nutrients and waste products across the cell membrane is very greatly influenced by this ratio of Na : K. If the ratio is wrong and there is too much Na, transport of nutrients and waste products will be affected - nutrients will not be able to get into the cells like they should and waste products will not be able to get out of the cell.

Our bodies require: fat, protein, vitamins, minerals and trace minerals. All the sugar can be constructed from these.

Sugar is in most foods anyway so there is no avoiding it, but too much sugar is not adviseable no matter how good it tastes and no matter how much we think we crave it. Our cravings for sugar begin from the moment we are weaned and start eating sugary fruits as infants in all the baby foods that are loaded with it, or eating fruit.

I know that this is not a popular view on this forum, but I urge you all to examine your beliefs.

Please read: Fats That Heal Fats That Kill by Udo Erasmus

There are others.


alex

[Linda1970]

I feel sad reading your post, since I love fruits and have been thinking of doing 8-1-1.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Most of the people who use the low-fat high-fruit approach moved from a substantial amount of fat, salt, etc. in their raw diets. Not just with Dr. Graham's approach, but many on their own personal journey. You could look at many long term natural eaters who gravitate toward simple meals of fruits and greens, after starting out on nut heavy, salty diets.

If you say that sugar is sugar is sugar no matter what kind or if raw or cooked, then you also can say that fat is fat is fat no matter what kind or if raw or cooked.

Yes, refined sugar is going to spike blood sugar levels faster and higher than fruit, because fruit contains water and fiber to naturally regulate it in the body. Juice will act more like sugar because it is isolated away from all the fiber. But because fruit is relatively low in fat, the sugar goes quicker through the system.

Most of the time people on the SAD will eat refined sugar with fat, in donuts, candy bars, cake, cookies, salad dressings, pies, etc. The refined sugar is causing a faster spike while the fat holds it in the system longer than it normally should.

In regards to different types of fat, I completely agree that denatured fat is not as damaging as cooked fat, however it still moves slowly through the system. I think too much fat can be detrimental only because it causes one to eat less fruit and vegetables, which I believe are the healthiest. Everyone is different, but some people do better on 10% fat while others do better on 25%.

An infants' first food is breast milk which is VERY sweet. Have you ever tried breast milk? It almost tastes like a light juice. It tastes sweeter than cows milk.

There are 7.4 grams of carbohydrates (sugars) in every 100 grams of human breast milk, and 1.1 grams of protein and 3.4 grams of fat.

There are 5.12 grams of carbohydrates (sugars) in every 100 grams of 2% cow's milk, and 3.55 grams of protein and 2.05 grams of fat.

When I crave something sweet, it is usually something that has fat in it. So for me, sugar isn't the whole culprit here. I have personally found more of my addictions having to do with a fat source than a sugar source. I have never felt out of control or addicted to fruit, but I could easily get carried away with some raw brownies or cashew nut butter.

I personally believe that the reason most of us should eat sweet foods is because it is how nature intended. Fruits are beautiful to the eye and perfect for our hands to pick from a tree/plant.

[Lay-Lay]

***Shrugs*** I just eat RAW and loving the NEW me Inside and Out! YIPPPEEE! :D

[LightLover]

I believe that:

- There are no essential sugars, but there are essential amino acids and fats;

- Most sugars have in the body an acidifying effect
(except lemon&lime, grapefruit, fresh coconut)

- maybe a little highlight for 80/10/10 diet: the low fat % does not cause
a sugarspike in the blood?

lightlover

[Sunshine9]

The question of high fruit and pH is excellent. Can anyone following 811 post their saliva pH from first thing in the am?

[LightLover]

Sunshine9, I am not sure if I know wat you mean, I am no native speaker,
but this is what I do in the morning to control/adjust my ph:

- a glass of water with Hymalyan haliet salt (see all threads);

- 15 min later: a glass of water with lemon/lime

- I am planning to add to the lemon/lime: a little cayenne pepper (alkalizing and good for the arteries: see threads) and a little agave (low glycemic index and delicious, but maybe not alkalizing) , never tried can't tell you the taste
A little like the mastercleanse I think?

- I eat half a cucumber (starting tomorrow: this idea just hit my mind and it seems good, it is both very alkalizing and very light)

- Alex, how do you start the day, anyway like this?

Lightlover.

[Sharon in Colorado]

- I am planning to add to the lemon/lime: a little cayenne pepper (alkalizing and good for the arteries: see threads) and a little agave (low glycemic index and delicious, but maybe not alkalizing) , never tried can't tell you the taste
A little like the mastercleanse I think?



The lime/cayenne is a great combo, a South-of-the-Border flavor if you will. We used to make the mastercleanse with lime instead of lemon and preferred it. You might want to try both to see which one you like better, just a suggestion.

[LightLover]

The lime/cayenne is a great combo, a South-of-the-Border flavor if you will. We used to make the mastercleanse with lime instead of lemon and preferred it. You might want to try both to see which one you like better, just a suggestion.

Did you also add a sweetener: agave or maple? :D
and / or anything else?

LL

[Sharon in Colorado]

Did you also add a sweetener: agave or maple? :D
and / or anything else?

LL

:)

At the time, yes grade B maple syrup because the richness made a huge difference. I would still do that now though. I don't use large quantities of the stuff (like I've seen recipes call for a whole cup of it), but for flavoring as I'm not 100% pure it wouldn't bother me.

I tried it with Grade A and it wasn't rich enough. LOL!

I know there's dark agave and yacon syrup, something to look into.

[LightLover]

The lime/cayenne is a great combo, a South-of-the-Border flavor if you will. We used to make the mastercleanse with lime instead of lemon and preferred it. You might want to try both to see which one you like better, just a suggestion.


About your "South-of-the-Border flavor"

Think about this, making a raw-margarita:
(and I did like them a lot non-raw!)
----
Water
Lemon juice
a drop or drops of essential orange oil
Agave or maple syrup
On the border of the glass: hymalyan salt!
--- (better to leave out the cayenne pepper)

Even if it wouldn't taste, the idea gives pleasure :D
Volunteers sought!

Today I bought dark agave from nature's first law and i did taste it mono
(very good), tomorrow gonna try with the lemonjuice etc..

LL

[Sharon in Colorado]

About your "South-of-the-Border flavor"

Think about this, making a raw-margarita:
(and I did like them a lot non-raw!)
----
Water
Lemon juice
a drop or drops of essential orange oil
Agave or maple syrup
On the border of the glass: hymalyan salt!
--- (better to leave out the cayenne pepper)

Even if it wouldn't taste, the idea gives pleasure :D
Volunteers sought!

Today I bought dark agave from nature's first law and i did taste it mono
(very good), tomorrow gonna try with the lemonjuice etc..

LL

That sounds good too. I used to always order the banana margaritas in Mexican restaraunts. I am sure it would be good blended with ice!

The mastercleanse drink we'd make with lime would remind my dh of a candy he used to get at work from some of the Latino women.

[alex]

We are the only species on the planet that completely disregards the cycles in nature.

In most of nature, fruit is only available for a relatively short period of time every year. Yet our supermarkets are now stocked with it throughout the year.

In nature all other species are governed by the light dark cycle of night and day, yet we keep the lights on.

We evolved by eating certain foods are certain times of the year and until very recently in the history of mankind, we also were governed by the light dark cycle.

These cycles are hardwired into our genes. Every once in a while one hears something about circadian rythms etc.

We are breaking the laws of our own genes and there is a price to pay.

I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here. We are all seeking what is best for us. I am simply trying to pass on information which makes sense to me that I have encoutered in my travels through available information.

I start my day with a green juice (kale, celery, cucumber)

About half to 3/4 hours later I have a fruit salad of three or four different fruits. According to The Raw Food Detox Diet by Natalia Rose. In October I plan to switch to avocado, tomato, cucumber salad and eliminate fruit completely until next summer.

For the rest of the day I eat veggies and good fats.

Far what it's worth


alex

[vgloveforlife]

So true Alex.

In the Winter the body doesn't even crave fruit that much. I will be lowering my intake during the winter too.

[sport]

Dont forget that we evolved in Africa and there is probably fruit available there all year.

[sport]

According to Chinese medicine we should have our protein meals in the morning and our carbs later in the day.
Our system is not geared to digest carbs in the AM.

[LightLover]

That sounds good too. I used to always order the banana margaritas in Mexican restaraunts. I am sure it would be good blended with ice!


* never heard of this, so the recipe is: tequila & lemon & banana & you leave the triple sec/cointreau in or out?

The mastercleanse drink we'd make with lime would remind my dh of a candy he used to get at work from some of the Latino women.

* but now he gets his raw candy from a raw woman :rolleyes:

[LightLover]

Alex, isn't it strange how different there are toughts about polyunsatturated
fats? (omega-6) .

Some swear by it (udo urasmus) others not, because the quality could easily
be influenced by circumstances. :eek: Where do you stand?

LL

[alex]

I'm not sure I follow what you mean.

Udo is a great believer in the ratio between omega3 to omega6.

In his book he suggests 3:1 as ideal, but since then, on his website, I believe he leans towards 2:1.

The articles on his website are extremely informative!!

http://www.udoerasmus.com/firstscreen.htm


alex

[LightLover]

I think I was wrong with my omega-6 text ... :eek:

I looked (search function) at his website (good idea) for "unrefined" red palm oil (I don't mean kernel oil) , which I did start a thread about, which is very rich in carotenoids (more than tomatos/carrots) and certain Vit E contents,
which are rare in other foods


Couldn't find much about it in this forum.
Are you using it?


Lightlover

[alex]

The oils I use are: Udo's, Hemp and Coconut


alex

[rawnora]

Alex,
I only skimmed your posts, but noted some inconsistencies. You say we ignore nature at our peril and I agree wholeheartedly. However, you seem to be doing the same in at least one instance with your advocacy of the consumption of free oils. There are indeed "good" fats but they are all found in whole, intact, natural foods. There is no "unrefined" oil. All oils are unnatural and fractionated, separated from their natural source. Our bodies could not have adapted the need nor the ability to deal with a 'food' so isolated and unnatural. Oils are extremely difficult for the body to process and are not healthful at all, no matter what food they originally come from. Many successful long term raw fooders eat no oils whatsoever. I've eaten absolutely no oil for 5 years. To say that eating oils is somehow necessary or healthful is to contradict nature herself, since nature provides no oils and no other creature on earth consumes oil.

Also, your point about eating seasonally is not valid with regard to humans because our species spent its formative millennia in areas of the world where fruit grows all year round. People who try to follow the idea that we shouldn't eat fruit because it's cold outside do their bodies a huge disservice, because it is fruit that our bodies need more than any other food for its readily available nutrients and fuel (sugar). By your logic the Inuits would be just fine not consuming fruit at all, since it does not grow in their homeland. Yet they have the highest rates of certain diseases of any people on earth and typically die very young even by our low standards. Commonly it is noted by people who try to replace the fruit in their diets with fats and greens that they feel low on energy and sluggish. The body must work much harder to create fuel from fats and greens than from fruits and in the end the fuel value (sugar) just isn't there in sufficient quantities. With all that energy being diverted to digestion and with so little raw energy potential coming back in return, one can expect to have less available for outward activity.

There are very reasoned and nature-based explanations for Doug Graham's approach. While I don't agree with it 100%, it is far superior to most of the philosophies expressed by people who have had the common sense trained out of them in medical and nutrition school. Nature has all the answers. The more we align ourselves with how other creatures eat (i.e., no processed foods), the healthier we can expect to be.

Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[alex]

Nora:

I did much more than just 'skim' your post.

I believe that no one person has all the answers (starting with myself).

You say that: There are very reasoned and nature-based explanations for Doug Graham's approach.

Well the same thing can be said for the points that I made, as well as just about every other approach if one looks hard enough.

I am very much looking forward to reading Dr Graham's book when it comes out, at which time I will decide for myself whether it makes sense or not. So far the bits and pieces that I have picked up on this forum about his approach, do not make sense (to me).

As I indicated previously, I am just trying to expose the people here to information that I have encountered along my research path, that I think is very important. I am sure that this is what most of the people here are doing as well.

It is a pity that these discussions must take place in this format rather than face to face over a nice cup of (warm) herbal tea.

My comments in this particular thread are based on the following books which I strongly encourage everyone to read. I also do not agree with much of the information contained in them, but each makes, what I believe to be, some critically important points.

The Paleo Diet by Loren Cordain

Fats that Heal, Fats that Kill by Udo Erasmus

The pH Miracle by Robert O. Young

The Rosedale Diet by Ron Rosedale and Carol Colman

Light's Out by T.S. Wiley

I have read over one hundred books on human health and thousands of articles. I also have three university degrees, but more importantly: 52 years of life experience.

I wish you success with your RAWSCHOOL. I have been to your wesite previously and have read the articles. I enjoyed your cancer quiz, but disagreed with your food chart and whether or not raw-fooders should worry about nutrient deficiencies. Here is a reference for that:

Empty Harvest by Bernard Jensen and Mark Anderson

The article by T.C. Fry was very good!

Take the best care of yourself


alex

[LightLover]

Alex, let us know whenever you have finished Dr graham's book, maybe I am gonna read it also.

I am especially interested if ,in books with certain programms , also the counterfacts/ "different opinions" about these facts are being dealt with.

Many author's don't do this and are preaching for themselves.

LL

[Scoobiedoo]

I adhrere to Dr. Young's theory that sugar ferments in the body and isn't good.

It's all about pH IMHO!

[Larue]

Well, I would just like to thank Nora and Alex for giving us the benefit of their years and depth of research/experiece. I have been hoping for something like this, and am planning on keeping these posts! I personally need to hear what people have discovered, not by hearsay or skewed reading, but by solid and objective facts. Thank you so very much!

Larue

[Sharon in Colorado]

Alex, you could download a free interview with Dr. Graham on www.rawveganradio.com. He explains how he came to the 80-10-10, how it has worked for himself and others, and why he believes it is the healthiest type of raw diet to be on. It is about 50 minutes long.

P.S. Something I wanted to mention as an afterthought, after reading your post. You noted that fruit is not always available all year around, and concluded that maybe should not be eaten because of this.

How about oils? They are not found in nature at all, they have to be extracted by mechanical processes. Would it not be better to eat the olive before olive oil, the flax before flax oil, etc.?

[alex]

The real problem is that there are facts to support almost any view.

I listened to the interview with Dr Graham last night and he makes it sound so logical and common sense.

I felt the same way when I heard Dr Young.

Read any of the major diet books out there and they all make it sound true.

It's a jungle out there!!!

It's really hard to know what to believe and what not to.

Sometimes, just when you think you have it all figured out, you run across something that puts it all in doubt and it's like starting over. This has happened to me several times and will probably keep happening as new information comes to light.

We learn as we go and all do the best we are able to.

It's like before spanking children was accepted as normal while today it is child abuse - which one is really the truth. Perhaps this is a bad example, but I hope you know what I mean.

The fact is that the truth changes.

Perhaps someday we'll have it all figured out, but I somehow doubt it.


alex

[Sharon in Colorado]

I agree with you Alex. There are so many approaches.

I just take what I resonate with. While Dr. Graham makes a lot of sense, so does Storm Talifero, Boutenko and others. I think Graham has probably had the most effect on my thinking, although I don't follow his program, I appreciate the logic he brings to the raw table.

Then there are those who affect me on more of a personal level, like Alissa, Shazzie and others who bring something different to the raw table.

When all is said and done, I have come to the conclusion that eating foods in their natural form would be the best approach to a healthy diet.

[Gosia]

I agree with many points above. I tend to think that there is a risk in relying on the intelectual truths, because people's ideas are only a reflection of how they understand the nature, which often is only a poor reflection. This is why in my learning, rather than assume the published material (scientific papers, books on nutrition, on-line articles etc.) to be the ultimate and the only valid source of truth, I choose to learn from nature. This include observing my own body, and in particular its senses. In my view, all the knowledge is available, it is simply a matter of abandoning many of our preconceived ideas, and relying on instincts instead. I believe that humans do have the ability to follow their instinct. To me, this it the only healthy way of being, and so this is the path that I choose.

As far as other various people's ideas, I like Nora's ideas, because she too prefers to abandon preconceived ideas, and rely on the logic of nature instead.

Gosia

[Revvell]

Ohhhhh lordy, I think I'll stay out of this one. :D

[Sharon in Colorado]

Ohhhhh lordy, I think I'll stay out of this one. :D

Yes, go play with the sheepies and monkeys :p

[LightLover]

I agree with many points above. I tend to think that there is a risk in relying on the intelectual truths, because people's ideas are only a reflection of how they understand the nature, which often is only a poor reflection. This is why in my learning, rather than assume the published material (scientific papers, books on nutrition, on-line articles etc.) to be the ultimate and the only valid source of truth, I choose to learn from nature. This include observing my own body, and in particular its senses. In my view, all the knowledge is available, it is simply a matter of abandoning many of our preconceived ideas, and relying on instincts instead. I believe that humans do have the ability to follow their instinct. To me, this it the only healthy way of being, and so this is the path that I choose.

As far as other various people's ideas, I like Nora's ideas, because she too prefers to abandon preconceived ideas, and rely on the logic of nature instead.

Gosia

I would like to agree with this, I do agree a lot, and I hope it is like this.
But sometimes it is difficult to remark a signals which lies dormant in ourselves and only will come to the surface when it gets pretty late.. , and even in case when we remark the source can be unclear to us.
That's why reading keeps important: it is hearing many signals from many people.

LL

[rawfigure]

I agree with many points above. I tend to think that there is a risk in relying on the intelectual truths, because people's ideas are only a reflection of how they understand the nature, which often is only a poor reflection. This is why in my learning, rather than assume the published material (scientific papers, books on nutrition, on-line articles etc.) to be the ultimate and the only valid source of truth, I choose to learn from nature. This include observing my own body, and in particular its senses. In my view, all the knowledge is available, it is simply a matter of abandoning many of our preconceived ideas, and relying on instincts instead. I believe that humans do have the ability to follow their instinct. To me, this it the only healthy way of being, and so this is the path that I choose.

As far as other various people's ideas, I like Nora's ideas, because she too prefers to abandon preconceived ideas, and rely on the logic of nature instead.

Gosia



I agree wholeheartedly with this Gosia.
I too have read countless diet books, theroy on eating, for about 30 years now. (I started at 15 :D ) I have tried many types of eating some for a few short months, others for years. It is daunting to read and try to put all the different ideas into practice, and see the health results promised. Since being RAW for a year I have abandoned so many of the concieved ideas and just do as you and Nora are, looking to the Nature side of it. It is working so much better for me. :)

[rawfigure]

I feel sad reading your post, since I love fruits and have been thinking of doing 8-1-1.

I think you should give it a try and come to your own conclusion on this. You will know if it works for you or not.

I had a "fear" of trying it coming from the old "limit your fruit intake" mentality. Actually I went YEARS with out eating anyfruit to speak of !

I am so glad I broke thru my own limitations and tried it. I feel great look younger and on it goes...

My eating pattern has naturally gone more to 70-15-15. I am happy at that and do not struggle to do it perfectly. Try it.

[rawfigure]

We are the only species on the planet that completely disregards the cycles in nature.

In most of nature, fruit is only available for a relatively short period of time every year. Yet our supermarkets are now stocked with it throughout the year.


alex


I live in the Northeast and it is the time of year where the animals are starting to hoard the fruit and seeds, nuts from the trees, to take to there winter haven for consumption when the snow flies and the plants do not bear the fruit. I watch them doing, stealling from everyone's gardens.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I live in the Northeast and it is the time of year where the animals are starting to hoard the fruit and seeds, nuts from the trees, to take to there winter haven for consumption when the snow flies and the plants do not bear the fruit. I watch them doing, stealling from everyone's gardens.

That is interesting rawfigure. As animals 'hoard' it we fly it around the world to us. And sometimes we grow it in greenhouses. So we all get our fruit one way or another.