The "Okinaraw" Diet :oP

[abeedabu]

Hello!

Okay, here's the deal. For a while there I was really starting to wonder if I was the only one on earth who included fish in their raw diet, for b-12 purposes (canNOT take the idea of being on supplements the rest of my life). I'm not too sure about dairy, and try to stay away from it for fear of both osteoperosis and overeating (cheese is BIGTIME addicting for me). So I logically came to the conclusion that I should get a b-12 supply from fish (most likely after reading about the Okinawan Japanese and how they are the healthiest people on the planet). Also I think I took into account comparative anatomy that's often used in omnivore v. vegetarian debates. Anyway, I would like to hear any arguments against the addition of fish to the raw diet, speaking purely from a dietary perspective v. a moral one. I don't and will never have a moral dilemma over eating fish.

You see, I haven't yet seen any arguments against the addition of fish.. it just seems kinda like a given that most raw foodies are vegans (possibly w/ the exception of honey). So if there are any well-researched ones out there, by all means, lead the way! I want to get this all straight in my head before I start a family. :o)

Thanks a bunch!
aubrey

(and obviously, this is assuming you have a pristine, unpolluted and fresh supply of fish. which I do.)

[Juicyfruit]

Email me. I have some good info.

[DavidZaneMason]

Abeedabu:

-I'm here to support you 100% Although I don't include fish in my diet (for health reasons). In fact, I've eaten only fruit for many years - and am the strongest and healthiest guy I know! LOL.

-I avoid fish for several reasons (my own personal opinions). In nature, it would simply not be very feasable or appealing to grab a fish from the water......and eat it raw.......taste wise / appearance wise / and difficulty wise! Ha! ha! Not as easy as picking a berry or an apple.

-For health reasons, it was always my understanding that fish often have high levels of chemicals and parasites IN them (in the flesh). No escaping that stuff if I eat it. A fruit diet seems much easier to digest (to me) than a high-protien animal (fish) diet.

-Do an experiement: Take a fresh fish and leave it on your counter. Take some fresh fruits and leave them on the other counter. See how long it takes for the fish to decay vs. the fruit. What makes you think it will do that in the heat of your digestive system any slower? LOL.

-Fresh produce (fruit) seems to me to be much cleaner and easier to clean - by rinsing.

-You are certainly doing the right thing...and asking the right questions. I think after you research all the right alternatives....you'll make the choice that's right for YOU.......and be full of joy.....because YOU made the conscious choice and accepted the consequences of what you believe.

-What do you think?

-David Mason

[Framboise]

Do you have a store where you can buy fish that is not full of either anti-biotics, hormones and other nasties; or fish that is not full of mercury and even worse nasties from the sea?

I suppose if you are dead certain your fish is 100% organic and has not been bred in a pond that is overpopulated along with all the health hasards that fish have to cope with when there is overpopulation in their ponds... then I suppose raw fish would not be that bad for your health.

But quite frankly, the fish industry is just as scary if not more than the meat industry. Good luck! (And if you like tuna, give a little thought to the dolphins that have died in the process of fishing them. They would appreciate it).

[abeedabu]

Juicyfruit: done! thanks.

David: what do i think? I think you're splendiferous! you made some awesome, creative points without going within a football field of judgemental. we need more people like you in the universe. however, i'm still more afraid of the certainty of my kids having nervous system developmental problems from lack of b-12 than I am of the possibility of my sources being contaminated. I'm a realist, I know they always will be to some extent, the farther up the food chain you go and all, but I just can't risk it for my kids. With kids, once you find out there's a problem you can reverse some of the damage but not all of it. Pretty scary. And I don't want to subject them to endless b-12 scans and potential shots..ick. Thank you for your humour, intelligence, and encouragement.

Framboise: please refer to my first post as my response

[Gelis]

Okay, here is my 2 cents worth for what it is worth.

Prior to going raw I ate almost no fish. For some crazy reason now I absolutely love it. Though I do not eat it very often about once every month or two. My few slip ups have been for that unsuspecting shrimp that has been dangled in front of me.

I have no scientific research to offer you I am obviously not vegan, I am a realist, I also am not concerned about the B12 issue. I see nothing wrong with fish I do try to buy it from the health food store or I have made friends of people who go on all kinds of fishing trips and they bring it fresh.

For me it is a matter of choice. I do not want to give up everything. My health is better than it has ever been and quite frankly until my allergies, asthma, arthritis and whatever ailments I do not know about comeback I will continue to eat shrimp and such.

Good Luck in your quest. Check out Carol Alt I believe it is. she eats fish some too

[Cinnamon]

I applaud you for asking questions and finding out for yourself what will work best for you. I will include the link below for some great information Alissa Cohen (owner of this wonderful support group) has provided on the B-12 issue. I hope you find it helpful and that it can answer some of your concerns on this issue.

Personally I do not eat fish, being a raw food "vegan" this is not something I would include in my diet for many reasons. In the other posts above some of those points have been brought up already. And David's post (#3) is excellent!

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=19

[Gelis]

[QUOTE=Cinnamon]I applaud you for asking questions and finding out for yourself what will work best for you. I will include the link for the Mission Statement of this board as outlined by Alissa Cohen, the owner of this wonderful support group, just FYI as this is a raw vegan discussion group!

[/qoute]
I agree that this is a Vegan discussion group. While I did not start this discussion. I have contributed to it and see nothing wrong with it.

However, I did not believe that the members were narrow minded enough to berate people of asking questions. No one here has asked anywne to change their point of view. As a matter a fact I got the distinct impression just the opposite had happened. The orginator asked for information to change her or his point of view.

Perhaps I was wrong in considering this a place to find like minded individuals and support for raw food diet unless you were exactly like everyone else.

Yes, I admitted to eating shrimp ooh shoot me. That does not mean I will always do it it means I cannot bring myself to give it up at this point.

I appologize up front if my statement in this discussion have offended anyone. While I have enjoyed this group and most everyones opinions and ideas greatly. I suppose I will also defintely consider wether belonging to this group is worth it sense the only views which can be expressed are the ones that are entirely politically correct ones.

[Cinnamon]

Ahhh... I see I didn't get my edited post done quickly enough Gelis. My sincere apologies if I offended you or anyone else in way, shape, or form as that was not the intention at all. I was only trying to offer a gentle reminder of the purpose of this support group as outlined by its owner. Nuff said and I will avoid this thread and wish everyone a wonderful and beautiful day!

[Gelis]

Ahhh... I see I didn't get my edited post done quickly enough Gelis. My sincere apologies if I offended you or anyone else in way, shape, or form as that was not the intention at all. I was only trying to offer a gentle reminder of the purpose of this support group as outlined by its owner. Nuff said and I will avoid this thread and wish everyone a wonderful and beautiful day!

Thanks Cinnamon,

I would have edited after submitting if I could have figured out how. Have a great day.

[asil]

Abeedabu:

In nature, it would simply not be very feasable or appealing to grab a fish from the water......and eat it raw.......taste wise / appearance wise / and difficulty wise! Ha! ha! Not as easy as picking a berry or an apple.

-David Mason

David -- I like your answers, and I agree with the intent.
:)

But I just want to point out that humans have a long history of catching fish with minimal tools and even bare-handed, and eating them raw, on the spot. It's really not that hard in areas where fish are abundant or spawning. Where my mother grew up the children used to catch spawning fish by shoving a sharp stick into the water, then tossing the fish on the bank. Not much more complicated really than the way chimps use a stick to get ants out of an ant mound. And in many ways, it's easier than trying to get a young coconut down from a tree. Now these aren't good reasons to eat fish, but I just couldn't resist responding to this notion. :D

[DavidZaneMason]

Ha! ha! I hear you. Just not MY thing! Not very appetizing to me!
If you want to grab raw fish from the river and chomp down - go for it! LOL.

Abeedabu: You should do what YOU think is right for yourself and your kids. Don't let habit, fears, or gurus get in the way of that! For sure!

-David Mason

[luckitri]

If people are making exceptions to the raw food diet I think that it behooves all of us to pay attention and learn. This is after all a dietary experiment that we are partaking in and is available to us due to modern transportation methods. I realize that some people were doing this long ago and what they ate in winter in northern climates - well I would like to know what that was. From what little I have read so far the B12 issue is a problem that even the experts have not made a definite conclusion on....however the Bs are water soluble vitamins and the argument that I read here - cooking possibly makes the B12 in meats also unavailable due to being destroyed in the cooking process. If people are making exceptions to the raw food diet and then feel unwelcome to participate in this forum - well that is alot of data that is being lost.....data that others of us might decide in the future that we wish we had available to us if we choose to revise our eating decisions.


My family had a lot of seafood restaurants at one time. I was always taught that raw fish has worms. Cooked fish -well that is your choice.

The Bible warns against shellfish and another popular writer (Gary Trudeau) has written that some people chronically are ill the day after they eat shellfish and they often don't equate the relationship of the illness to their food choice the day before. Don't get me wrong - I love fish - especially the lobster, shrimp, crabs, clams, mussels etc - but they are all bottom feeders in our incredibly polluted oceans and I have noticed that I suffer also after partaking of them.....so I don't.

[sport]

[QUOTE=abeedabu]Hello!

I would like to hear any arguments against the addition of fish to the raw diet, speaking purely from a dietary perspective v. a moral one. I don't and will never have a moral dilemma over eating fish.

QUOTE]

The China Study is the most comprehensive study of diet practices ever. It has concluded that having 5% of the calories in your diet from Animal protein will leave you open to the development of tumors.
Tumors will not grow if the level is lower. Can you be sure that your levels are below this if you eat fish.
I feel safer not deliberatly eating any animal protein and then that allows room for the mistakes such as the critters that you may be eating without knowing it.

[vgloveforlife]

I realize that some people were doing this long ago and what they ate in winter in northern climates - well I would like to know what that was.

Sprouts, dried foods, indoor herbs, and some vegetables and fruits can be stored all winter.

[Sunshine9]

Well, if you are what you eat, I don't want to be a dead fish.

[sport]

Well, if you are what you eat, I don't want to be a dead fish.
Another thing to consider.
Sight and smell are part of the eating experience. You walk up to a fresh apple or orange and you smell it and feel it and look at it and it stimulates your appetite.
I can not exactly say the same for a dead fish (but that may just be me).

[rawbeliever]

Storm, of www.thegardendiet.com, has been a raw vegan for thirty years, and he and his family get tested regularly to make sure there are no vitamin/mineral deficiencies. He's written on his website that he, his wife, and their five raw kids are in perfect health, specifically with no B-12 deficiency.

If you're eating fish from fear of deficiency, you have to do what you have to do to take care of yourself.
If you're eating fish because you like it and you don't really want to give it up, well...you still have to do what you have to do. Just make sure that you're conscious of your true reasons. Eskimos ate raw fish for much of their lifetimes, and tended to die very early >50 yrs.

good luck, and be well.

[dreamrawalwz]

Ok, my understanding that hwen you cook any food 50% of the nutrients are depleted and in animal products only 50% of that or less is then assimilated in the body so you're not really getting what you think you are. Many people are raw vegans (even just vegans) that don't have B-12 deficiency. I think it's actually rare. Did you know meat/fish eats have just the same amount of B-12 deficiency and or anemia as vegans?

[misslinda]

Another thing to consider.
Sight and smell are part of the eating experience. You walk up to a fresh apple or orange and you smell it and feel it and look at it and it stimulates your appetite.
I can not exactly say the same for a dead fish (but that may just be me).


I like your style Sport!!!! I agree with your input.........FOOD ought to be a freeing feeling. :)

[Tirza]

It is also my understanding that it is not "just" vegans who get B12 deficiencies.

Why would meat eaters get it? Because their bodies don't assimilate the nutrients to make it?

So if a vegan has a B12 deficiency, maybe they would have had it if they were a meat eater?

[Framboise]

doubleg: Excellent points you made.

About the Okinawas. Why would anyone assume it's because of their fish diet that they live so long? What if it were genetic?

There's a good article on B12 by Vivian Vetrano. In fact, it's one of the best I've ever read:

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html

(I find it a bit weird to be talking about eating FISH on a vegan forum. (Weird is an understatement in order to remain politically correct and polite.)

[dreamrawalwz]

doubleg: Excellent points you made.

About the Okinawas. Why would anyone assume it's because of their fish diet that they live so long? What if it were genetic?

There's a good article on B12 by Vivian Vetrano. In fact, it's one of the best I've ever read:

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html

(I find it a bit weird to be talking about eating FISH on a vegan forum. (Weird is an understatement in order to remain politically correct and polite.)

It may be genetics, but it may also be what they DON"T eat - A Western Diet, so not specifically the fish itself.

[sport]

It may be genetics, but it may also be what they DON"T eat - A Western Diet, so not specifically the fish itself.
I have read that what you do not eat is far more important than what you do eat

[luckitri]

Many good points here and good links. I think that for me the goal is to have as varied a diet as possible and to try to get my nutrients from the whole food as many nutrients in isolation will not absorb or be effective. I would consider fish only if I lived in an area where I could catch it myself just prior to eating. I think that the way most fish are caught must cause the same fear hormones and chemicals as our other animals which are butchered - they are much smarter than we give them credit for and they do know what is going on (IMHO). They most certainly can smell blood and death. Some animals just seem to know that they are prey and once caught they quit fighting and give themselves over to it in my observation. (Maybe they are frozen with fear.) I am glad that this discussion did not get locked.