Honey

[mud]

i had made some tea for myself today; raw lemon leafs boiled.

Anyway, i decided to add some sort of sweetener.

It was honey.

i had a little bit of the honey dripping off the side of my cup ~ and i licked it off.

After that i ate three table spoons more of raw plain honey.

i'm craving some now, and it's really bad.

i read an article on honey as an unhealthy substance for humans.

i believe it.

It's so hard to stay away from it now. i could eat an intire jar of it. Right now.

i've never had a craving this bad before. For anything, EVER.

Honey—How Healthy Is It?


What could be more natural than honey? Health seekers have sung its praises for years, and it is promoted as a beneficial, healing food. Is honey a perfect food, easily digested, and toxin-free as so many writers would have us believe?

Actually, honey is little better than most of the other refined sweeteners and sugars. True, it can be had with little processing and no heating, but does that make it a natural food for man? The truth is that honey contributes to tooth decay, obesity, diabetes, and other diseases that white sugar use has been linked with.

Honey is defended as a wholesome food because it has been used for a long period, much like milk and dairy products. Like milk, honey is a food that is produced by an animal to feed its own species. It is not a natural food for man—it is a natural food for bees.

Honey is produced by the bees modifying the nectar of flowers with formic acid produced within their bodies. The bees regurgitate the honey after mixing. Water is evaporated from the honey by air currents generated by the wings of worker bees. The nectar is usually vomited up several times before it is mixed enough with the bees' own preservative secretions.

The honey is also produced with various enzymes to meet the special needs of the bees themselves; consequently, the changes that occur in the production of honey are not amicable to man's metabolism.

Bees are often robbed of their food product and forced to live on sugared water by their keepers. Often, poison sprays such as carbolic acid and benzaldehyde are sprayed into the hives (and onto the honey) to chase the bees away so that they may be robbed.

Most commercial honey is heated, filtered and processed. Even bees cannot live on heated honey for long. If fed such honey, the bees sicken and die. Honey may also be adulterated with white sugar syrup, corn syrup and other additives, so honey is rarely the "pure" product it's advertised to be.

Honey is almost pure sugar and water. There is a minute amount of mineral material in honey, and it is this mineral content that health enthusiasts point to as a justification for using honey instead of white sugar. This argument is faulty because the mineral content is so low that you would need to eat 200 tablespoons of honey a day to meet your calcium requirements, 91 tablespoons for your potassium needs, and 267 tablespoons to satisfy your phosphorous needs. Obviously honey has minimal nutritional value for humans.

Honey has also been shown to destroy teeth even faster than white sugar. A study at Oregon State University demonstrated that some honeys may contain cancer-causing substances that the bees have extracted from certain flowers. Other honeys have been associated with botulism, an often fatal form of food poisoning.

Honey is not for the health-seeker; indeed, it is not for any human being. Honey is not for the birds either—it's for the bees. They made it, let them eat it.

Anyhow, i now must fight a different sugar craving.

[Lay-Lay]

Stay strong! You can do it.

Honey doesn't have this effect on me ....shrugs....

[JennaBoBenna]

Interesting! Honey doesn't have that strong of an effect on me. I can dip my fingertip in, and want another dip or two, but that's about it.

[Lay-Lay]

Interesting! Honey doesn't have that strong of an effect on me. I can dip my fingertip in, and want another dip or two, but that's about it.

same here! I don't use much because I usually find it to be too sweet although I like it on occasion.

[lissomllama]

Mud, I'd say that the article you have there is the correct information. I don't believe that honey is beneficial for humans and in fact I think it causes problems.

I don't eat it because it usually isn't raw and even when it is, it still isn't really for us. It also isn't vegan and there is cruelty involved for those bees. They spend their lives making very little honey and humans just come and steal it.

There are worse things you could eat but if/when you decide to stop eating it (good idea), just treat it like any other non-raw item that needs to be eliminated from your diet.

Also, it's totally fine if you have decided to allow yourself boiled/heated tea and you might still be transitioning, but just FYI, boiled/heated tea isn't raw and isn't really healthy. If you do continue to drink it, I suggest you buy loose leaf, bulk herbs and make your own teas because commerical, packaged teas (even herbal) are irradiated and processed. If these things are fine with you, then by all means, enjoy them. I was just being nosy ;)

[Davylp25]

That aint what it does to my body. I love honey. FOlks eat well, take care of yourself well externally, internally... balance balance balance.

[Crazy Healer Lady]

This came at a time when I am cutting sweet stuff out of my diet. I have already cut out refined sugar, but man oh man, do I have a honey addiction. BUT you offered this on one of my weeks where I don't want sugar (my body telling me to rid myself of it).

Thank you. You have made it incredibly easier to rid myself of honey. I just don't know what I am going to use as sugar in baking :( other than maple syrup, but if I don't want that maple taste??

(PS I have no comment on whether or not it is really healthy or not, but it is certainly not good for me!! because I am going overboard :( So easy with sugar.)

[lissomllama]

Baking? Why would you want to bake anything? ;)

[juliebove]

I've never liked the taste of honey. I remember my mom serving it with biscuits or cornbread. My brother loved the stuff. I can't stand anything that has even a touch of honey in it. Yuck!

[swingbolder]

That aint what it does to my body. I love honey. FOlks eat well, take care of yourself well externally, internally... balance balance balance.

Well said. I love raw honey and love to eat it from time to time. ;)

[lissomllama]

Hmm, this is a raw vegan message board where we usually frown upon talking about eating non-vegan things. Well honey is NOT vegan so why are we all talking about it and eating it? I find that a bit strange, but oh well.

[sport]

I just read some of that report about the bees vomiting it up 3 times but I do not know why I read it because I have always found the thought of eating honey to be disgusting and do not need further convincing.
It can not be seen as vegan and it can not be seen as natural for us because it would have been very hard for our ancestors to have collected it.

[learningrawways]

I went through a period where I really really craved honey, I wanted to spread it over something and munch and I pretty much don't like the crackers you can make with flax seeds....however, I found that the taste of Alyssa's pizza dough with buckwheat sprouts was good if I spread it thin enough and that's what I would spread the honey on, it was delicious and then surprise after eating that for a few days, I haven't had a craving for honey since. So even though honey isn't good for you there must have been something in it that I needed.

[vgloveforlife]

I've never really liked honey. Ever since I went raw I've been buying raw honey though. I like it raw so much more than cooked but I still don't like it that much. I'll probably stop buying it.

My dad eats it by the spoonful to try to get rid of his allergies. :(

[Dimond]

Everyone thinks honey is better for you than refined sugar, but it really isn't. The article is correct. Agave is the sweetner that replaces honey in a raw diet and is much better for you.

I'm surprised there are so many on here still using honey. But it's another unhealthy substance, so I guess it's not too surprising.

[raeannasun]

Try mesquite or yacon root!

[Dimond]

Honey is good for hair & skin though. It does have healing properties, but it's meant more for external use.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I use raw honey as a sweetener along with agave nectar. I've never had that effect with eating honey as you've described. I think as long as it is in its natural state it doesn't cause problems as other refined/processed sweeteners. Personally I see agave nectar as more processed than honey.

However if it is bothering you perhaps your body is signalling you to stop using it.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Hmm, this is a raw vegan message board where we usually frown upon talking about eating non-vegan things. Well honey is NOT vegan so why are we all talking about it and eating it? I find that a bit strange, but oh well.

It is more of a beegan board. Honey has been discussed here before with no problems.

[Revvell]

I've heard that many distributors of agave purchase it from one source, add corn syrup and re-package/bottle it.

I've got one kind which supposedly isn't done that way. *shrugs* who to believe?

Anyway raw honey can be gotten. It's also anti-viral and anti-bacterial. Even though I eat it rarely when I have a sore throat (rarely) I do eat it. Sore throat gone overnight.

[JennaBoBenna]

Hmm, this is a raw vegan message board where we usually frown upon talking about eating non-vegan things. Well honey is NOT vegan so why are we all talking about it and eating it? I find that a bit strange, but oh well.

Most raw foodists use honey. All the books I have on raw food call for honey in recipes.

[dreamrawalwz]

I'm going to finish reading the article later because I need to go to class, but I just wanted to say that honey has that affect on me as well. Any type of sweetner does actually.

[mud]

lissomllama,

i know that tea is not raw. i just enjoy drinking it ocassionally. Even if i do, it's not hot. Room tempeture, or warmer. When i was talking about the lemon leaves, basically i got the leaves from my mom's garden. i have no clue why she grows them, but i decided to try and make tea from it. Violah! It was good!

The honey though ~ holy crow. i'm staying away from that stuff. :eek:

All i knew when i was eating it, was that it wasn't a healthy craving. My body didn't really need it ~ It was just a craving for sugar. Emotional perhaps?

-~-~-~-~-~-~-~-


Most raw foodists use honey. All the books I have on raw food call for honey in recipes.


Maybe because they're not aware of what honey really is, and the effects it has on your body.

My body does not react to honey in a harmful way that i could recognize right away [vomiting, stomach ache, cancer etc] ~ but still, if there is a chance it could be doing something, something bad that i could never notice, then why take the risk? i want the best for my body.

Everyone's replys have been very interesting.

Honey is your personal preference; but i just wanted to shed some light on the subject, and see what other Rawbies think :p

[KombuchaCHIC]

I love honey! I don't have a problem eating it or using it in recipes. :)

[mud]

kombuchaCHICK,

When you make your own kombucha, do you use honey to sweeten it?

[KombuchaCHIC]

No, I use sugar. All the sugar is converted through the fermentation process, however. I've heard honey does not work the same as sugar, and may not work as good either, because of its antibacterial properties. I've never tried it.

[lissomllama]

It is more of a beegan board. Honey has been discussed here before with no problems.

Yes, I've heard that term before but it sounds like an excuse to me. Either you eat animal product(s) or you don't. Honey is an animal product. Simple as that. It's no big deal but the term 'beegan' just seems ridiculous to me. It's like people who claim to be vegetarians but they still eat white meat or they still eat fish and they make it okay by calling themselves 'pesco vegetarians' or whatever. It is still flesh from an animal with a pulse. So it is meat. Therefore, they are not vegetarians. Veganism is more of a lifestyle because ideally, a vegan doesn't wear leather or use things with animal products in them or that have been tested on animals. But when we're just speaking about dietary ways, one is simply not a vegan if they eat honey, no matter what new and cute terms we come up with to excuse ourselves. I'm not trying to be negative but I've always taken issue with this situation. We need to call things what they really are, not slip by saying 'I do mostly this and only a little of that' etc.

[lissomllama]

lissomllama,

i know that tea is not raw. i just enjoy drinking it ocassionally. Even if i do, it's not hot. Room tempeture, or warmer. When i was talking about the lemon leaves, basically i got the leaves from my mom's garden. i have no clue why she grows them, but i decided to try and make tea from it. Violah! It was good!


Awesome, I'm glad they tasted good. I'll have to grab some lemon leaves and crush them up in some ice water. That would be refreshing. Thanks for the idea.

[Davylp25]

Dont mess wont mess with Vegans! They dont play. Just back away, before they attack. They are crazy. LOL

Makes me wanna eat meat just to piss them off... Just like religous zealots, I guess eveyone has their own religion, veganism, christianity, buddihism.. LOL!

I still love Honey. LOL.

[mud]

i had never thought of honey as an animal product until i researched into it, and actually thought about the bees. i think a lot of people just don't know better, or don't think of it. i always thought of honey as a condiment, like sugar, or cinnamon.

Now i know better.

Shows how diluted we can get.


How deluted i can get. ):

[alex]

It's funny how tolerant we are about some things and then completely intolerarant in others.

I like honey, so I eat it once in a while.

Why is it ok to call oneself a raw foodist when only 90% raw, but it is not alright to call onself a vegan if 90% vegan?

I consider myself a vegan even though once in a while I have a small fish meal.

To each his or her own.


alex

[Revvell]

I just call myself ... Revvell. :D

[Judy]

I like to call myself just Revvell too... Although I'm not 100% Revvell... Sometimes I am more of an Alex... :D

Well guys (and girls), all are just names, labels. We all do our best, each in his or her own way, no matter how we are labeled. And that's what counts. Instead of saying: I am a raw pesco vegetarian, you could say: I love to eat fresh fruits and vegetables and occassionally a herring. It sounds so much friendlier... More world peace provoking, don't you think? ;)

[lissomllama]

Why is it ok to call oneself a raw foodist when only 90% raw

alex

I would unintentionally hurt people's feelings if I voiced my opinion on that (even though it isn't ever personal) so I'm not going to put the words out there but I too was once not raw, I always went raw cold turkey but It was still a transition and I 've failed before and I feel for people and eveyone needs understanding. I'm sensitive to that, but I guess I take it to an extreme. It's a healthy one for me though. In regards to the intolerant comment: My body is intolerant of cooked food and animal products but I even stated in my post that if someone wants to eat these things, it's fine if that works for them (although I feel pain for all the animals being abused for the sake of 'food' we don't need and I can never condone that) I just think we should use truthful, absolute terms for things like this. There was no intolerance involved in that and my opinion on it isn't going to change much. People everywhere will still use those terms and that's their choice, but I decided to comment on it. That doesn't make me intolerant or rude, it makes me a purist.

[lissomllama]

I am a raw pesco vegetarian, you could say: I love to eat fresh fruits and vegetables and occassionally a herring. It sounds so much friendlier... More world peace provoking, don't you think? ;)

Good point, it does sound much nicer and it is less of a label and probably causes less squabling. If we choose to use labels though (and for myself, I do), I think they might as well be acurate. It has become a non-issue though. It really isn't anything to get upset over. Sorry if I hurt anyone's feelings, I totally didn't intend to. We're all wonderful and beautiful, no matter what we eat. :)

[Revvell]

I like to call myself just Revvell too... Although I'm not 100% Revvell... Sometimes I am more of an Alex... :D


Awww, go 'head. Just know, you will confuse folk ~ as though they don't confuse themselves enough. :D Hmmm. Am I part of an Alex? does that make me 95% Revvell and 5% Alex? Or... am I 75% Revvell and part... WHAT???? I don't know who/what I am??? I NEEED A LABLE!!!!! Or is that label? *shrugs* I yam who I yam. Y'all figger it out. I'm going to take a nap.

[Davylp25]

'Diet should not become a religion but, a healthy result of conscious choices, we should find what works for us personally and our goals.'

Peter Ragnar

[dreamrawalwz]

I would unintentionally hurt people's feelings if I voiced my opinion on that (even though it isn't ever personal) so I'm not going to put the words out there but I too was once not raw, I always went raw cold turkey but It was still a transition and I 've failed before and I feel for people and eveyone needs understanding. I'm sensitive to that, but I guess I take it to an extreme. It's a healthy one for me though. In regards to the intolerant comment: My body is intolerant of cooked food and animal products but I even stated in my post that if someone wants to eat these things, it's fine if that works for them (although I feel pain for all the animals being abused for the sake of 'food' we don't need and I can never condone that) I just think we should use truthful, absolute terms for things like this. There was no intolerance involved in that and my opinion on it isn't going to change much. People everywhere will still use those terms and that's their choice, but I decided to comment on it. That doesn't make me intolerant or rude, it makes me a purist.

I'd have to agree with you. Either you're a raw foodist or you're not. You may be working your way UP to 100%, but you aren't yet. I don't want to sound harsh, but it's just a fact. Either you're vegan or you're not and you consume animal products Maybe you want to eventually become vegan, then say "i'm transitionin to a vegan diet." or going raw say "i'm working my way up to only consuming raw foods." or something similar.

[lissomllama]

*hugs* You totally get what I meant, dreamrawalwz. I'm going to have to come steal you! :D :p

[lissomllama]

'Diet should not become a religion but, a healthy result of conscious choices, we should find what works for us personally and our goals.'

Peter Ragnar

No one is making this lifestyle their religion, although in many cultures and belief systems, it plays a huge role in religion. It is natural for diet to be the number one most important thing because that is how creatures survive. In archaic times, food dictated EVERYTHING, from where one would live to if they would live at all. Why should it be any different now? We may have more technology but we still have the same need for sustainable, natural food and water. We must remember that raw veganism is not an alternative lifestyle. It is the way all humans were meant to live. Whatever 'works' for whatever people is just fine and dandy but that is on a totally social/mental level. What truly 'works' for every human is raw, vegan foods but people just don't always choose to eat those foods. Other factors are involved, of course and there is no need for hostility but we have to raise awareness somehow.

[dreamrawalwz]

*hugs* You totally get what I meant, dreamrawalwz. I'm going to have to come steal you! :D :p

Haha that made my day! Thanks :D Come steal me if you'd like, I don't mind.

[lissomllama]

will do....

[VSL]

All I know is that this is Alissa's board and she uses raw honey :confused: So where does that leave us?

[Revvell]

All I know is that this is Alissa's board and she uses raw honey :confused: So where does that leave us?

Eating whatever the heck we want and calling ourselves whatever we want. If this were the biggest challenge in my life ~ I'd have no challenges.

[Dimond]

Raw agave Alissa sells:
http://www.alissacohen.com/shop/product.php?productid=30&cat=5&page=1

[Framboise]

I get very upset when I hear that people call themselves vegan (whether raw food vegans or "ordinary" vegans") and eat honey. Stealing honey from bees is no more vegan than stealing eggs from chickens. As to the ethics of it... well, that is another chapter altogether.

But I think on a Raw Food message board, the focus should not be on defining whether it is okay for a vegan to eat honey or not. There are enough Vegan message boards where this issue is hashed out again and again and again (and again).

I got rather sad reading this thread and my solution will be to avoid any threads which have the word "honey" in them and just enjoy all the others which are so wonderful and inspiring.

May the gods bless you all. And I send my blessings to the beautiful buzzing bees too and hope that one day they will no longer be exploited and robbed by human beings.

[Sharon in Colorado]

I just call myself ... Revvell. :D


I like to call myself just Revvell too... Although I'm not 100% Revvell... Sometimes I am more of an Alex...


:D :D :D :D :D

Oh the pain...the pain!

The laughing hurts me.

Mommy make them stop!

[Sharon in Colorado]

Yes, I've heard that term before but it sounds like an excuse to me. Either you eat animal product(s) or you don't. Honey is an animal product. Simple as that. It's no big deal but the term 'beegan' just seems ridiculous to me. It's like people who claim to be vegetarians but they still eat white meat or they still eat fish and they make it okay by calling themselves 'pesco vegetarians' or whatever. It is still flesh from an animal with a pulse. So it is meat. Therefore, they are not vegetarians. Veganism is more of a lifestyle because ideally, a vegan doesn't wear leather or use things with animal products in them or that have been tested on animals. But when we're just speaking about dietary ways, one is simply not a vegan if they eat honey, no matter what new and cute terms we come up with to excuse ourselves. I'm not trying to be negative but I've always taken issue with this situation. We need to call things what they really are, not slip by saying 'I do mostly this and only a little of that' etc.

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from.

However even though I put no specific label on myself (other than Sharon...LOL Revvel), I like the term Beegan, so I choose to use it when explaining the way of my type of diet. It specifically states that a person eats no other animal products except those which bees produce. So what if the name is cutesy or sounds like an excuse to others. I find it suitable in the explanation process, it's explanatory to me and nothing else.

Anyway noone is truly vegan because you are eating live things on your lettuce and in your fruit, even if it's unknowingly.

If there is an ovo-lacto, a lacto, an ovo and a pescatarian, than the beegans have a place on this planet too.

To me, some 'vegans', but definately not all, seem to think they are the elite of the vegetarian world and noone else is allowed to use that term if they happen to eat some honey.

It makes me think of how Harley Davidson motorcyclists won't wave at Suzuki or other motorcyclists because they are not on 'real' motorcycles. Yet they will wave at one another. It is almost like they think the others are not good enough.

[lissomllama]

Ok, thanks all for the awesome discussion. It's nice that we all know where we stand. Cool. I've got a craving for a bunch of oranges so I'm off to enjoy them....

[mud]

i didn't mean to start any conflict in starting this thread; Sorry for any miscommunication. :(

i didn't know that people could get so sensitive om this subject.

Sorry for my ignorance. :(

~mud

[Revvell]

It's not about you, it's about "them". No matter what one says here ~ some innocent little remark ~ someone will take offense at it and make a big deal out of it. *shrugs* what to do but go on one's own merry little way and play with the sheep. *giggles*




i didn't mean to start any conflict in starting this thread; Sorry for any miscommunication. :(

i didn't know that people could get so sensitive om this subject.

Sorry for my ignorance. :(

~mud

[Sharon in Colorado]

i didn't mean to start any conflict in starting this thread; Sorry for any miscommunication. :(

i didn't know that people could get so sensitive om this subject.

Sorry for my ignorance. :(

~mud

You didn't, you could have titled this thread "What kind of toilet paper do you use" and it would end up like this. That is what happens in many threads, the topic will just veer off into other subjects.

[Sharon in Colorado]

It's not about you, it's about "them". No matter what one says here ~ some innocent little remark ~ someone will take offense at it and make a big deal out of it. *shrugs* what to do but go on one's own merry little way and play with the sheep. *giggles*

Revvell please play with the sheep nicely though.

Remember what happened when you petted the rabbit too hard?

[alex]

On the contrary - I think threads like this force us to re-examine who we are and where we stand. It cultivates open mindedness, unless one is rigid and close minded to begin with.

I think most people realize that no one is under attack here. It sure would be boring if we all thought the same things


alex

[mud]

Haha!

Thanks you guys ~ i was really feeling bad about it.

i should learn to play with sheepies too :p

[dreamrawalwz]

I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from.

However even though I put no specific label on myself (other than Sharon...LOL Revvel), I like the term Beegan, so I choose to use it when explaining the way of my type of diet. It specifically states that a person eats no other animal products except those which bees produce. So what if the name is cutesy or sounds like an excuse to others. I find it suitable in the explanation process, it's explanatory to me and nothing else.

Anyway noone is truly vegan because you are eating live things on your lettuce and in your fruit, even if it's unknowingly.

If there is an ovo-lacto, a lacto, an ovo and a pescatarian, than the beegans have a place on this planet too.

To me, some 'vegans', but definately not all, seem to think they are the elite of the vegetarian world and noone else is allowed to use that term if they happen to eat some honey.

It makes me think of how Harley Davidson motorcyclists won't wave at Suzuki or other motorcyclists because they are not on 'real' motorcycles. Yet they will wave at one another. It is almost like they think the others are not good enough.

I see your point as well. Ah, I hate being on both sides of a topic/issue/argument lol.

[KombuchaCHIC]

No one is making this lifestyle their religion, although in many cultures and belief systems, it plays a huge role in religion. It is natural for diet to be the number one most important thing because that is how creatures survive. In archaic times, food dictated EVERYTHING, from where one would live to if they would live at all. Why should it be any different now? We may have more technology but we still have the same need for sustainable, natural food and water. We must remember that raw veganism is not an alternative lifestyle. It is the way all humans were meant to live. Whatever 'works' for whatever people is just fine and dandy but that is on a totally social/mental level. What truly 'works' for every human is raw, vegan foods but people just don't always choose to eat those foods. Other factors are involved, of course and there is no need for hostility but we have to raise awareness somehow.

I have to disagree here. Raw veganism is most certainly an alternative lifestyle and it will continue to be so, until the majority of people and culture eat the same way. Which they probably never will. It doesn't matter if we were "meant" to live this way, it is still not the norm and it is a very difficult way to live. I don't think its my duty to try and convert everyone to my way of thinking, I live my own life and everyone is entitled to their own as well. I didn't really think this was an ethical board, more of a support board for people striving to live this way. Besides, I don't even think people started out eating this way to begin with. Humans are predatory creatures and they started out as hunters/gatherers. Even if it was raw before they figured out how to cook it, they still consumed meat to survive. Anyhow, that's beside the point. The point is, its silly to try and make other people feel bad because of what they eat. We are all trying to live in the most healthiest way possible. Guilt tactics aren't the best support system, imo. :)

[codajess]

Anyway noone is truly vegan because you are eating live things on your lettuce and in your fruit, even if it's unknowingly.

.


Knowingly and unknowingly are two completely different things. You make a choice. If there are live things on my lettuce and fruit that I'm eating unknowingly, by your logic, I can't actually be a vegetarian, either; which I am, at minimal. That's just a defense (COMMONLY) used by people who really have no other argument. That's all I'll say on this subject because I've made my feelings on this known numerous times.

[dreamrawalwz]

I have to disagree here. Raw veganism is most certainly an alternative lifestyle and it will continue to be so, until the majority of people and culture eat the same way. Which they probably never will. It doesn't matter if we were "meant" to live this way, it is still not the norm and it is a very difficult way to live. I don't think its my duty to try and convert everyone to my way of thinking, I live my own life and everyone is entitled to their own as well. I didn't really think this was an ethical board, more of a support board for people striving to live this way. Besides, I don't even think people started out eating this way to begin with. Humans are predatory creatures and they started out as hunters/gatherers. Even if it was raw before they figured out how to cook it, they still consumed meat to survive. Anyhow, that's beside the point. The point is, its silly to try and make other people feel bad because of what they eat. We are all trying to live in the most healthiest way possible. Guilt tactics aren't the best support system, imo. :)

I've always heard that before there was fire we only ate raw fruits and veggies. How did the cavemen rip through the raw meat without K-9 teeth? I dunno, just doesn't make sense to me, but if that's what you heard then that's what you believe...right?

[rawsomegirl]

Im pretty new to raw, and maybe Im way off here, but Im still a little confused about honey being an animal product. Arent bees insects? And I have heard of raw foodists eating insects, so wouldnt raw honey be okay? I personally eat it, raw, and I lable my self nothing, just one who decides not to eat SAD. I guess I wouldnt think of eating honey as eating animal products.

[Revvell]

Revvell please play with the sheep nicely though.

Remember what happened when you petted the rabbit too hard?

Nod,nod,nod *snif* Sheep are sturdier though. :D Heeeeere lil sheepy! Heeeeere lil sheepy! :cool:

[KombuchaCHIC]

I've always heard that before there was fire we only ate raw fruits and veggies. How did the cavemen rip through the raw meat without K-9 teeth? I dunno, just doesn't make sense to me, but if that's what you heard then that's what you believe...right?
Actually early forms of human evolution did have large canines. Homo Habilis ate meat as a scavenger and Homo Erectus used tools to butcher meat and were the first to use fire. These two species pre-dated Nanderthals which were well far advanced than they are. Early humans were very much omnivores.

http://www.humboldt.edu/~mrc1/main.shtml
http://sci.waikato.ac.nz/evolution/HumanEvolution.shtml#Theearliesthominids

Just a couple of links.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Knowingly and unknowingly are two completely different things. You make a choice. If there are live things on my lettuce and fruit that I'm eating unknowingly, by your logic, I can't actually be a vegetarian, either; which I am, at minimal. That's just a defense (COMMONLY) used by people who really have no other argument.

See this is something that can go around and around. I can come back and say you have a CHOICE to inspect your food each and every time you eat it to insure you are not consuming an insect as well. That is why this label business can be so overdone.

For me, it is so much easier to use the term as how I eat, not who I am. If I said I eat raw vegan food, but if some accidental insects or honey make their way into my system, it has a lot less impact than if I were to tell someone I am a vegan.


Im pretty new to raw, and maybe Im way off here, but Im still a little confused about honey being an animal product. Arent bees insects? And I have heard of raw foodists eating insects, so wouldnt raw honey be okay? I personally eat it, raw, and I lable my self nothing, just one who decides not to eat SAD. I guess I wouldnt think of eating honey as eating animal products.

Most people in the world don't see honey as an animal product.

Personally I would not be too concerned about the politics of it all rawsomegirl. I try to avoid using any kind of labels on myself because it just confuses people in general.

For instance, this weekend my family is going somewhere for dinner. My husband thinks I should mention that I am a vegetarian. I would rather not because last time I did someone prepared me a cooked dish containing lots of cheese and egg.

Or, if I were to say I was a vegetarian, beegan or vegan, we'd be going back and forth with the "well, can you eat this?" "what about that?" "so, you can't have fish?", "how about I make you a baked veggie lasagna?" "oh, but you can have veggie stir fry, right?" and it goes on and on, with a concerned host/ess trying desprately to figure out what the heck she is going to serve me because s/he doesn't want to fail as a host/ess or look bad.

It is much easier for me to tell people that I mostly eat fresh fruits and vegetable, if asked. Otherwise it doesn't need to concern them.

If you were to call yourself a vegetarian just because you eat honey most people think you still eat dairy and eggs, if you call yourself a vegan, then some of the other vegans don't like it, and now some even seem to have a problem with the term beegan.

P.S. When I have used the term beegan it is in the health and raw circles where people already are familiar with these terms, not the general public. The general public gets the "fresh fruits and vegetables explanation". The language changes with the listener.

[lane]

during college, i took- not for my major, but out of interest, several anthropology classes and had access to the university's skull/bone collection. i remember being amazed at the size of canines on these early hominids. every species is constantly evolving as genetic mutations are favored against surrounding change. although i eat a "vegan" diet, i would be lying if i claimed to think that we were really meant to eat this way based on evolutionary history and the fact that the few people i have met eating a raw paleo diet genuinely seem healthier to me. regardless, i find eating raw animal products too much of a mental challenge.
cc

[codajess]

Im pretty new to raw, and maybe Im way off here, but Im still a little confused about honey being an animal product. Arent bees insects? And I have heard of raw foodists eating insects, so wouldnt raw honey be okay? I personally eat it, raw, and I lable my self nothing, just one who decides not to eat SAD. I guess I wouldnt think of eating honey as eating animal products.


Raw honey is raw. It's just not vegan. Some raw foodists DO eat raw dairy, and raw meats (sushi-grade, and what not.) That's why I say there's a difference between being raw and being raw vegan. Too many people see raw worded as "raw vegan" so they automatically think that's what they are, instead of realizing there's a difference between the two. Bees are living, breathing beings, therefore eating anything they produce is not vegan. It may be raw. It's just not vegan. It is confusing when people use "Raw vegan" to describe themselves or the lifestyle, when they, and their lifestyles are not. That's why a lot of people are touchy about the misuse of labels. Vegetarians are annoyed by people who serve them chicken or fish because they "know a vegetarian who eats it" or vegans who are served honey, eggs, or even fish because they "know a vegan who eats it." If people would refrain from misusing them, people would be a lot more educated on these lifestyles, rather than being misinformed.

[Framboise]

Most people in the world don't see honey as an animal product.



Most people in the world don't see fish as an animal product either. Including some "vegetarians" who say: "I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish".

When will people understand that bees make their honey for their personal use, NOT for humans. And that many of the DIE when the beekeeper goes and steals their honey. And that the hive can no longer function in the way it was SUPPOSED to function before the "human being" came along and stole their honey.

Humans do not need honey anymore than they need cow's milk.

Or is it okay to eat Raw Cow's Milk in a Vegan Raw Food diet?

[codajess]

Or is it okay to eat Raw Cow's Milk in a Vegan Raw Food diet?

On a raw diet, technically, yes. On a raw VEGAN, I should nope not!

[swingbolder]

Why is it ok to call oneself a raw foodist when only 90% raw, but it is not alright to call onself a vegan if 90% vegan?

Ha! Good point! I totally agree.

[Sharon in Colorado]

Most people in the world don't see fish as an animal product either. Including some "vegetarians" who say: "I'm a vegetarian but I eat fish".

When will people understand that bees make their honey for their personal use, NOT for humans. And that many of the DIE when the beekeeper goes and steals their honey. And that the hive can no longer function in the way it was SUPPOSED to function before the "human being" came along and stole their honey.

Humans do not need honey anymore than they need cow's milk.

Or is it okay to eat Raw Cow's Milk in a Vegan Raw Food diet?

Yes - you said it. The majority of the population on SAD don't see honey as an animal product and believe that vegetarians eat fish.

The majority of the population and bears and most likely other wildlife encountering bee hives believe that honey is acceptable to eat.

[Revvell]

"....and the beat goes onnnnn, and the beat goes on .. and on .. and on..."

Bear care about bees? :p

[Framboise]

I want to just say a kind of a "sorry" if I get all passionate about this subject. Well, perhaps it's not really an apology, rather than an explanation so you all know where I am coming from.

I feel so strongly about it, and I really get VERY VERY sad for the bees to think that people steal their honey. I get just as sad as when people steal milk from the cow. My philosophy in life has nothing to do with Hierarchy, and I have the same respect for all creatures whether they be a beautiful big Elephant or a small little Bee.

So I'm just warning members here that you're gonna just have to get used to the idea that Framboise loves bees and has great respect for them and their bee culture and their bee intelligence and their bee communities....

So when you see the word "honey" in the thread and I cannot resist the temptation to come along and join the thread (which I SHOULD, but resisting temptation is not always easy!!!), you can all just sigh in advance and say "well, she DID warn us!!!" :D :p :cool:

[Cinnamon]

The bee critters and I have an agreement, since I am deathly allergic to them (carry an Epi-kit with me at all times), I don't eat their honey and they won't sting me. Now, I am keeping my fingers crossed that they will keep up with their end of the bargain!