Raw food for my dogs

[Xanadu]

I want to also feed my dogs raw but it is hard to get fresh meat in sufficient quantities for 3 German Shepherds and keep it fresh without shopping very frequently or killing it myself which I just cannot do emotionally. It's all I can do to kill an ant when it bites me, mosquitoes though, no problem, yet. My question is, do enzymes in meat survive freezing? Anybody know? I am sorry if this offends anyone but I have studied vegetarian food for dogs and one vegetarian veterenarian who would love to be able to feed dogs/cats that way says it just is too unhealthy for them. So I have found a source for humanely treated rabbit that will ship to me. Best I can do at the moment I think but if anyone thinks they know better feel free to let me know.

[D'vorah]

I freeze meat for my dogs when I need to. As far as enzymes go, I'm not sure, but even if they didn't, it's still a far superior diet to any kibble on the market.

You might find other raw fooders in your area and be able to go in together on larger quantities and cut price that way, as well as amount you personally are having to store. Also, often times, hunters will have odds and ends to share, if you know any. So far, what my hunter husband has offered me, though, seems too fatty, my fur kids don't seem to tolerate higher fat content.

I hope you get the answers you need,

Deborah

[asil]

I don't know the answer to your enzyme question, but I do know, that for carnivores like dogs, raw, previously frozen meat is so much better than super high-heat, processed grains, low-quality and diseased meats, industrial filler, and all the other garbage that goes into commercial foods.

There's just no way I could feed my 2 80 lb dogs raw if I didn't do frozen. I feed the Prairie brand raw meat, which comes frozen in patties.

They love it and their health has really improved since they've been eating it. Just wished I'd started them on raw from the beginning.

BTW, dogs don't do real well on raw veggies -- they just don't have the systems to process this stuff. Texas A & M did one of the largest studies ever on feral dogs, coyotes, and wolves. They found that in the wild, dogs get their veggies already partially digested from the intestines of herbivores.
One way to mimic that is to steam veggies and then run them through the food processor. Add in small quantities to raw meat. Happy dogs!

Some of this may be hard for vegans, and I can't tell anyone else what to do. I'm an animal lover too. But I just have to respect my dogs' nature and feed them as best I can.

[lissomllama]

Both of my cats eat 100% raw, organic meat with bones and I freeze some of it because I buy alot at once and I don't want it going bad. I'm not sure if freezing kills the enzymes, but I don't think it is as good as fresh, of course. I should try to only buy what I need at once, even though that would be alot more trips.

[D'vorah]

BTW, dogs don't do real well on raw veggies -- they just don't have the systems to process this stuff. Texas A & M did one of the largest studies ever on feral dogs, coyotes, and wolves. They found that in the wild, dogs get their veggies already partially digested from the intestines of herbivores.
One way to mimic that is to steam veggies and then run them through the food processor. Add in small quantities to raw meat. Happy dogs!

Some folks feed green tripe to take care of that need, I can't, just can't do that, erk.

I chop up raw stuff and add it to ground meat with some yogurt for some of their meals. They seem to do just fine, cabbage, greens, beans, broccoli, etc. They LOVE broccoli stems.

Deborah

[Leslie_L]

I have been feeding my Dogs raw for years. I mostly use frozen. I find it easier. It is very important when feeding raw that the diet is balanced and the percentage of minerals is kept in balance, particularly Ca to phospherous ratio. There are several prepared frozen brands out there that take all that into consideration. I have a friend who has been into canine nutrition for many many years and sells only the best brands in her shop, some of them include.....Prarie, Primal and Bravo. They are all properly balanced and have organic options.

There is also a great raw dehydrated food that is a mix of turkey or chicken, veggies and fruit called Honest Kitchen. It is rehydrated and then served. It is great, the dogs love it. I mix it 50/50 with the one of the above brands.

About the raw veggies.... they do need the nutrients from veggies and fruit but again in the correct proportions. They have a short digestive tract so in order for fruits and veggies to be assimilated and digested properly they need to be ground or in a puree form.

HTH,

Leslie

[Leslie_L]

Just remembered one more thing.....
Raw marrow bones and carrots are great for keeping teeth clean. I have been feeding my 10 year old doberman a carrot after each of his 2 daily meals since he was a puppy and he has never needed his teeth cleaned. He also gets a marrow bone a couple of times a week.

For anyone interested in more info on feeding raw to dogs and cats just do a search of the BARF diet ......Biologically Appropriate Raw Food and it also stands for Bones And Raw Food. You will find tons of info there.

Leslie

[asil]

Some folks feed green tripe to take care of that need, I can't, just can't do that, erk.

Deborah

Dare I ask what green tripe is?

[asil]

I have been feeding my Dogs raw for years. I mostly use frozen. I find it easier. It is very important when feeding raw that the diet is balanced and the percentage of minerals is kept in balance, particularly Ca to phospherous ratio. There are several prepared frozen brands out there that take all that into consideration. I have a friend who has been into canine nutrition for many many years and sells only the best brands in her shop, some of them include.....Prarie, Primal and Bravo. They are all properly balanced and have organic options.

There is also a great raw dehydrated food that is a mix of turkey or chicken, veggies and fruit called Honest Kitchen. It is rehydrated and then served. It is great, the dogs love it. I mix it 50/50 with the one of the above brands.

About the raw veggies.... they do need the nutrients from veggies and fruit but again in the correct proportions. They have a short digestive tract so in order for fruits and veggies to be assimilated and digested properly they need to be ground or in a puree form.

HTH,

Leslie

I've been feeding my dogs and cats Prairie, and have been very happy. I also add a bit of dry so that when we travel with them, and can't keep pounds of raw meat safely at hand, they'll be able to digest it. I've been lately giving them Evo. Does your friends sell this brand? Do you know what she thinks of it by chance? The guy at the pet food store claims it's the closest thing to raw in a dry form. But I'd love another opinion.

[RawSun]

My dog eats vegan kibble, vegan treats, and lots of fruits, veggies etc. A couple years ago, I read about a vegan dog in the UK that was 24 years old and lived on brown rice and lentils. That was enough to persuade me to turn my dog vegan. She is happy and healthy now, and I no longer have a guilty conscience feeding her animals. I know others may not share my oppinion, but I'd rather eat vegan, and feed my dog vegan even if it did compromise our health a little; than to have other animals die for us.

[lissomllama]

I've never been a fan of the frozen raw pet foods because they are processed, expensive and not available to all cities. Sometimes only specialty places carry this stuff. I think they are also too high in artificially added vitamins and minerals. I find that feeding, real, organic, raw meaty bones and some organ meats and chopped veggies is cheaper, more available and you know exactly what is in it. Your pets will not get deficiencies from this, because it has all the things they need. As long as they have whole bones to chew on/break open and organ meats and veggies along with a variety of raw meats, they will get everything they need and more. I wish I could remember where the link was that I found, but it was a huge page that debunked all these myths about feeding animals raw. It said that frozen prepackaged raw was better than kibble or canned but way more expensive, processed and not any better than fresh, readily available stuff. Dogs and cats etc. were meant to eat things raw and whole, not ground up and frozen in a tube shape. They have carnivorous jaws and claws for that reason.

[lissomllama]

My dog eats vegan kibble, vegan treats, and lots of fruits, veggies etc. A couple years ago, I read about a vegan dog in the UK that was 24 years old and lived on brown rice and lentils. That was enough to persuade me to turn my dog vegan. She is happy and healthy now, and I no longer have a guilty conscience feeding her animals. I know others may not share my oppinion, but I'd rather eat vegan, and feed my dog vegan even if it did compromise our health a little; than to have other animals die for us.

There are other threads on this subject here, but I was just wondering why you think it is ok to feed a carnivore vegan food? Dogs and cats have a carnivorous anatomy. They get some veggies in their diet, of course, but they are mainly meant to consume meats. As a 100% vegan human, I hate supporting the meat or meat byproduct industry (even if it is organic, free range) but don't you think it is wrong to feed a creature something that is not biologically appropriate for them? You are essentially feeding your dog like a human. But we all know that not every creature on this earth is a human or is biologically meant to be vegan. Many creatures take down and eat live prey, naturally. Dogs and cats are some of them. We may not allow them to do this, but feeding them vegan just seems strange and dangerous to me. Your dog may seem/be healthy now, but then again, so are many humans who eat SAD, until it catches up with them. It is not wrong to feed a carnivore meat. It is more wrong to deny them what they need, they simply cannot get the right nutrients from a vegan diet and even if they could, it wouldn't be natural and could cause instinctual damage. I've always been of the opinion that if you can't bring yourself to give your pet what he/she is naturally meant to eat, you shouldn't be caring for that animal. I have a bunny that I share my vegan food with and it is wonderful, but I know what my two cats need, so I give raw, organic, free range meat to them because it is my responsiblity to keep them naturally healthy according to what their anatomy is. I really don't mean to insult you or tell you to change your ways, but as an animal rights activist, I don't believe it is fair to essentially condemn one animal to lifelong potential problems to keep another prey animal alive. The great balance, food chain/ "circle of life" etc. proves that all must kill to eat (even vegans are killing plants to eat, but we accept that and know it is right for us). On a greater scale, if carvnivores cannot eat what they are meant to, there will be an overpopulation of prey animals that can cause all sorts of other issues. There is a delicate balance that must be maintained and we humans keep coming in and messing with it. We and the rest of the natural world will pay dearly, I assure you that. I keep seeing this and it simply doesn't make sense at all and in the long run causes problems. I hope you and your dog remain happy and healthy.

[D'vorah]

Dare I ask what green tripe is?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tripe

:D

[asil]

I've never been a fan of the frozen raw pet foods because they are processed, expensive and not available to all cities. Sometimes only specialty places carry this stuff. I think they are also too high in artificially added vitamins and minerals. I find that feeding, real, organic, raw meaty bones and some organ meats and chopped veggies is cheaper, more available and you know exactly what is in it. Your pets will not get deficiencies from this, because it has all the things they need. As long as they have whole bones to chew on/break open and organ meats and veggies along with a variety of raw meats, they will get everything they need and more. I wish I could remember where the link was that I found, but it was a huge page that debunked all these myths about feeding animals raw. It said that frozen prepackaged raw was better than kibble or canned but way more expensive, processed and not any better than fresh, readily available stuff. Dogs and cats etc. were meant to eat things raw and whole, not ground up and frozen in a tube shape. They have carnivorous jaws and claws for that reason.

Perhaps, but frozen and prepackaged is really the best I can do, for many reasons. Also, dogs have been bred by humans in various ways that often betray their carniverous past. For example, I have a sweet pointer rescue dog living with me. Her jaws are so narrow, she cannot handle whole cuts of raw meat. Her jaws have gotten stronger since she's been eating raw, but I dount she'd ever be able to break open bones, eat whole cuts, etc. On the other hand, my big lab mix could probably break open an elephant bone. So there are many factors to consider and we all do our best.

[lissomllama]

Oh yeah, definitely, you're doing SO much better than kibble. Bless you for feeding them the raw version that you can. They will be very healthy pets for sure even if it is slightly more processed. The bottom line is that you're giving them essentially what they need. They are lucky to have someone who cares for them like you do. :)

[Leslie_L]

I have not heard of Evo and either has my friend, sorry.

I disagree with lissomllama. I did quite a bit of research before making the decision to feed my dogs raw and they are most certainly at risk for dietary imbalances if not fed bone, muscle and organ meat in the correct proportions. This is especially true for a young growing puppy. Please do a little of your own research. You can start with Dr. Ian Billinghurst's BARF diet.

There are several companies that offer frozen and prepared raw food. Not all of them are overly processed and supplemented. I feed one that is organic.... muscle meat, organ meat and bone with veggies, no other ingredients, no preservatives. Is it expensive... it is no more expensive than buying the organic meats, fruits and veggies at my local health food market and feeding that. Actually I think it is cheaper than my local health food store. It is definitely more expensive than conventional but I won't feed them conventional meat because of the antibiotics and hormones.

Leslie

[Lay-Lay]

I take leftover veggie scraps and raw meat and combine it for my dog. He has been pretty much 100% raw for 3 months now. I had some leftove cooked food the other day and I thought well I'll give it too the dog. It had meat in it and smelled out of this world good (fixed for family) so I gave him some,. He wouldn't touch it. He took one look and smelled it and went back and sat on the couch and looked at me like "you've got to be kidding, where is the real food?" Before he would have gobbled that down.

[codajess]

My cats have been raw for almost 3 weeks. I buy their meat frozen, defrost it, portion it out into daily sizes, and refreeze them in individual containers. By the way, dogs are carnivores. They don't need any veggies. Most animals, if killing prey, leave the innards with the partially digested veggies.

[lissomllama]

I have not heard of Evo and either has my friend, sorry.

I disagree with lissomllama. I did quite a bit of research before making the decision to feed my dogs raw and they are most certainly at risk for dietary imbalances if not fed bone, muscle and organ meat in the correct proportions. This is especially true for a young growing puppy. Please do a little of your own research. You can start with Dr. Ian Billinghurst's BARF diet.

There are several companies that offer frozen and prepared raw food. Not all of them are overly processed and supplemented. I feed one that is organic.... muscle meat, organ meat and bone with veggies, no other ingredients, no preservatives. Is it expensive... it is no more expensive than buying the organic meats, fruits and veggies at my local health food market and feeding that. Actually I think it is cheaper than my local health food store. It is definitely more expensive than conventional but I won't feed them conventional meat because of the antibiotics and hormones.

Leslie


Hmm, I believe I mentioned in my post that I feed them a good balance of bones, meat, organs and veggies. It is entirely possible to offer these ingredients in the right amount without having them pre-measured. I have done plenty of research, and I read the same stuff you did about the barf diet but then I found all sorts of other information, debunking that and it made much more sense to me and my cats looked and felt better once I stopped fesding them the frozen. The fresh, whole stuff works the best for my cats and they need to be able to use their jaws to rip apart the raw meat and bones and also clean their teeth on it and have it feel more natural. I'm glad that the frozen kind works perfectly for you. It is still a version of raw. I was just typing down the research I've seen and the evidence I have seen for the way I do it. I only wish I could remember exactly where those links were.

[lissomllama]

My cats have been raw for almost 3 weeks. I buy their meat frozen, defrost it, portion it out into daily sizes, and refreeze them in individual containers. By the way, dogs are carnivores. They don't need any veggies. Most animals, if killing prey, leave the innards with the partially digested veggies.

Yeah, most of the veggies they get are from the digestive tracts of their prey. The only veggie I feed my cats is a little amount of wheatgrass each day. They don't have access to live prey with digestive tracts full of veggies. When I can have dogs they will eat a small amount of veggies as well, but not too much, because they really don't need much.

[Vegan Diva]

I adopted two ferrets recently and they eat an animal based diet. I've been slowly introducing raw foods to them. I'm fortunate my next door neighbor is also a business owner. He sells live and frozen prey. Initially I had a huge problem with this, made my switch in 1992 for ethical reasons, but personally I felt in order to do what is best for them I needed to give them what they truly needed.
Ferrets are obligate carnivores. They don't have a cecum so they cannot process plant material.

[vgloveforlife]

Rawsun-I think you are doing a great thing for your dog. As long as she is healthy I wouldn't worry too much about it.

I think all animals are different just like humans. My doxie is very picky. I put him on a vegan diet, he wouldn't eat much ever and started eating cat poop instead and became malnourished. He just needs his animal products. He is not a dog that will eat everthing given to him. I started him on raw Natures Variety with a little high meat kibble mixed in and he has never been happier.

My cat on the other hand will not touch the raw meat. He loves his kibble, prefers it over the raw meat. I tried to feed him some raw meat, he stuck his nose up to it and went over and ate some vegan potato soup (prior to me being raw). He loves all types of foods-He would definitly prefer the vegan cat food to the raw meat.

All animals are different, you can't lump them all together. They are domesticated and they will choose their foods just like we do.

[lissomllama]

Most domestic cats will not touch raw meats at first because they aren't used to the taste and texture because they were raised eating kibble and canned junk. Just like how SAD/cooked people often don't like the taste of raw, vegan foods in the beginning. When starting any carnivorous animal (especially cats who are known for being picky) back on their biologically appropriate diet, one must slowly introduce the meat and organ meats into their previous foods, starting with hardly any bones and soft, cut up, easy to chew pieces and soon, get rid of the kibble and start to add more bones and eventually they'll be back to the way they were meant to be. Almost nothing happens overnight. Also, if cats don't eat SOMETHING at least every 12 hours, they can develop a deadly liver disease, so at all times (especially when changing their diet) make sure there is something they will eat. When an animal is fed a certain way all its life, one cannot expect them to suddenly like something else without slowly being weaned off first. Just because they are domesticated, doesn't mean it is ok to forget about giving them what they are meant to consume. All animals may be different, but there is a basic diet that all creatures must eat to be healthy and for carnivores, it is meat. All options should be thouroughly explored before giving up on it. Granted, some domestic animals may never be able to be fed their natural diet due to lifestyle changes caused by humans, but we can all try our best. I know I certainly used to like the taste and texture of a bagel with cream cheese more than a leafy green salad but I know which of the two I was meant to consume, so I did it and now I'm on track. Just a little comparison.

[vgloveforlife]

lissomllama-I would just like to point out that my cat was a kitten when I tried to get him to eat raw meat so I'm not sure he developed too much of a taste for kibble or much of anything yet. It seems like instinctively he would go for that raw meat rather than the vegan potato soup but it was not so.

I would like to switch him on a raw diet eventually...thanks for the tips!

I see nothing wrong with putting dogs on a plant based diet, with lots of fresh ingredients included, as long as they are healthy and are actually willing to eat this way.
I'd also like to add that you do have to read the ingredients carefully with any kibble including the vegan brands. They can be just as unhealthy.

Here's the vegan dog who is 27 yrs old:
http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm

[smasty]

I haven't read everyone else's responses yet, but my two dogs have been on a raw diet for 5 years. They are in incredible health! Pearly white teeth...they'll never need dental work. One dog is a 13 yo yellow lab, the other a 6 yo shepherd mix. The lab lost about 20 pounds after going raw and is at his "high school" weight. Dogs always want treats, right? I give them tons of raw almonds...they are happy to get treats, and they poop them right out, so I don't have to worry about the calories.

Feeding them raw is a pain! Especially for a vegan. I make all their meals every two weeks and freeze them. I buy bulk meat at costco. Dealing with raw chicken every two weeks is motivation enough for staying vegan. I'm a firm believer in meat for dogs.

I pulverize veggies in my food processor, mix in meat, and some "Sojo's" which is oatmeal with sea veggies mixed in. They also get ground flax seed or "Missing Link" supplement. I try to use a variety of meats and veggies. Sometimes they get raw eggs with the shells pulverized in their food.
They do raw chicken bones just fine...remember they MUST be raw. It's when they're cooked that they are lethal.

I was so tired of losing dogs to cancer...I REALLY believe commercial dog food is a horrible disservice to our companions. Yeah, it's a total pain making their food every two weeks, but seeing how heathly they are makes it totally worth it.

[lissomllama]

lissomllama-I would just like to point out that my cat was a kitten when I tried to get him to eat raw meat so I'm not sure he developed too much of a taste for kibble or much of anything yet. It seems like instinctively he would go for that raw meat rather than the vegan potato soup but it was not so.

I would like to switch him on a raw diet eventually...thanks for the tips!

I see nothing wrong with putting dogs on a plant based diet, with lots of fresh ingredients included, as long as they are healthy and are actually willing to eat this way.
I'd also like to add that you do have to read the ingredients carefully with any kibble including the vegan brands. They can be just as unhealthy.

Here's the vegan dog who is 27 yrs old:
http://dogsinthenews.com/issues/0209/articles/020918a.htm

You're right about the labels. I also have a chip on my shoulder because a huge number of pet food companies that are supposedly well respected, are testing on animals and harming them. Obviously most vegan pet foods eliminate this problem but brands like iams that many people use are from a disgusting company that tortures thousands of animals each year. Almost every general product on the shelves these days is tested on animals, so I simply steer clear and use all the natural stuff.

As far as your kitty goes (she sounds adorable, BTW) How old was she when you offered her the meat? If she had had even one meal of kibble or canned food, she would have already developed a taste for it. If the very first thing she ate off of mother's milk was raw meat, then she'd probably like it more. I'm not sure. Anyway, with some more pushing, she'd probably become more open to it soon, but that's your choice. Love is the most important thing, of course.

About the vegan dog article: Isolated cases like this really don't work for me, and simply looking at a photo of a dog (BTW, this dog actually doesn't look to healthy at all to me) doesn't prove that it is healthy. In fact, the people could even be lying about the vegan thing. All sorts of other factors are at play here. Not to mention that I'm sure there is a percentage of dogs that break the mold and can somehow live, healthy enough to look and feel great on a vegan diet, but everything this Earth tells me is that dogs and cats are carnivores and need meet in some form. But thanks for the link, it's cute.

[vgloveforlife]

lissomllama,

My cat is 1 year old. I tried raw meat around 6 months old. He likes everything but meat. He's just not a meat cat. It's really weird. I would think he would have the instinct in him still but he doesn't.

BTW-just so you know the picture of the dog in that article is not the 27 yr old dog Bramble. Bramble is a collie.
Dogs are actually omnivores. Most do really well on a plant based diet. Cats on the other hand are carnivores and need a very high meat diet.(my cat will tell you different though) I personally wouldn't put a cat on a vegan diet. But dogs will do fine.

[lissomllama]

Yeah, dogs do well eating some veggies with their meat. They usually love carrots and such. Anyway, I wonder why your cat is that way. That is a odd. There is always an individual in their amongst the rest :D .

[SeaRose]

I have been feeding my dog a raw meat diet for two years now. I can't imagine giving him just veggies, I don't think that would be the best thing for him. I do give him some raw veggies, ground up and added to his meat, but he is a dog. Look at wolves, coyotes and wild dogs, what do they eat? I have never heard of one whipping themselves up a smoothie. :)

While I understand a human giving up meat for the humane issues, (I have also done so and understand,) keeping your dog from eating it for the same reasons seems unfair, and unhealthy.

I am so glad to hear that so mant of you are feeding your animals raw food. When I first started feeding it to my dog 2 years ago, people thought I was completely insane. But, when you see him, and the fact that he not only has the energy of a pup, and the softest, shinest coat, you know he is eating well. The funniest part though, is when I told some family members that I was eating raw, too. They thought I was eating RAW MEAT!! :p

[lissomllama]

I know what you mean, my cats look dramatically healthier since going on a raw, organic meat diet. Their fur is softer than silk and their teeth and clean and pearly white and they are lean and muscular and full of energy. It is really amazing.

I also just wanted to point out that humans shouldn't just become vegan for humane reasons. Humans are built to eat fruits, veggies, nuts and seeds, Not meat. We have flat nails and flat teeth for cutting and grinding and our jaws move side to side like a grazing cow's does. And our digestive tracts are very long. Carnivores like dogs and cats have sharp claws and teeth for catching and tearing into prey. They also have very short digestive tracts and their jaws only move up and down. The way we are built is proof right there.

[Xanadu]

Hi D'vorah, Asil, Lissomllama, Leslie, Lay-Lay, Codajess, Vegan Deva, Vgloveforlife, Smasty, and Searose
Thank you all for your answers! I guess I'll go ahead and order the rabbit meat then and I am so glad I am not upsetting anyone. I had talked to someone who sells raw food for dogs and she told me that her dobermans had been the healthiest of all when she was giving them each a half a rabbit per day. I love the idea of going together with someone else to buffer the cost too. I do wonder how I could find some hunters that would sell to me in a form that was practical. I would wonder if soaking shredded raw vegetables in a vinegar solution might mimic the predigested form in prey animals also and then would they eat it. Mine do occasionally like some fruit like orange segments and peices of cantaloupe but I only give it as a treat because I don't want them to get upset stomachs again. They won't touch carrots for some reason. I can't see anyway I could do daily or even every other day shopping for them right now, I do good to go once a week so I am going to have to do frozen but I didn't know if the enzymes survived. I am going to assume now that most do since we do frozen fruit icecream for ourselves according to Alissa's book I see. I've tried it now by the way and it is AWESOME!

I will never own another cat if I can't feed it raw as my last cat died recently of liver disease because he developed a craving for my dogs kibble and would sneak it when I didn't notice and it killed him. I didn't know dog food would do that to a cat till it was too late. If it had been raw dog food that wouldn't have happened and he probably woudn't have wandered from his own anyway if he was getting raw.

When I used to feed my dogs raw I would add canned pumpkin to chicken leg quarters as it is a big thing on the barf website I went to and sometimes would add some other ground raw veggies but they kept getting severe diahrea even bloody so I went back to kibble but I am trying again and have currently using turkey neck bones and some frozen raw patties from the pet food store with no problems so far. I want to get them on frozen rabbit though because of what I heard as I mentioned previously.

I don't know where I would get green tripe but I hope that the Prairie patties (which ARE very expensive) cover that till I get the rabbit coming. I don't feel up to figuring out how to balance the food like some Barf people say you have to do. Again I hope the patties and the rabbit take care of that. I would try doing the raw marrow bones but I have done so in the past and two of my dogs have broken their canines on something and I have to assume it was the bones so I am hoping the turkey neck bones are softer than those leg knucles and bones I used to buy. My dogs did seem to like the Evo when I tried it. After seeing what happened to my cat when not eating species appropriate food and reading what vegetarian vets say who would have loved to be able to feed dogs and cats vegetarian foods I will never try to feed my dogs as vegetarians. Meat based kibble would be better than that it would seem to me. I very much agree with Lissomllama where she says "The great balance, food chain/ "circle of life" etc. proves that all must kill to eat (even vegans are killing plants to eat, but we accept that and know it is right for us). On a greater scale, if carvnivores cannot eat what they are meant to, there will be an overpopulation of prey animals that can cause all sorts of other issues. There is a delicate balance that must be maintained and we humans keep coming in and messing with it. We and the rest of the natural world will pay dearly, I assure you that. I keep seeing this and it simply doesn't make sense at all and in the long run causes problems." I see the same thing at least for now although the Bible indicates there will be a time when at least some carnivores will apparently become vegetarians (Isaiah 11:7 "...And even the lion will eat straw just like the bull.") If anyone thinks we aren't hurting anything when we eat plants they might be surprised to learn that scientists have found that plants react with indications of high stress levels when other plants or animals are killed but back to dog food...

I'd like to know what kind of food that is you feed Leslie? Smasty you might want to research about the almonds although raw ones may be different but I read almonds were bad for dogs. I can eat raw ones now but when I was on the SAD diet nuts of any kind and also beans (and dairy) made me very sick so it may be the same with dogs. I have tried to incorporate most everybodies replies in my reply and am very grateful for all your comments. I feel much more well informed now. I am sorry it took me so long to answer here but things got crazy around here right after I wrote the question.

Lay-Lay, you and I have a lot in common, sister. : )
Everybody have a great day....I have another question I'm about to do a new post on about traveling and eating raw....