Losing muscle and strength

[veganman]

I saw my physical therapist today for the first time since right before going raw. She was concerned about me, said I had lost weight, lost muscle, and looked like I was starving myself. I am not trying to. It is just so hard to eat when I am still digesting the last meal. I don't want to throw food on top of food, am getting about 87 grams of fat, but still taking in only 1500-1800 calories. Losing muscle, weak, bloated.......I need suggestions. I am going to see a chiropractor that might be able to help me and I told her I don't want to eat animal products. Hopefully, she won't try to get me to eat cooked food. I want to make this work, but I am having a hard time....

A typical day -

1 pint strawberries

1-2 hours later
1 green smoothie with 1 bunch kale and 2 large apples

1-2 hours later
5 bananas

1-2 hours later
Salad with 1/2 cup nuts or seeds or 1 avocado

4 hours later
1/2 cup nuts/seeds with dinner, large salad or 1 avocado


Any suggestions would be great.

[Lay-Lay]

I am sure that some of the raw bodybuilders on the board would be the better one to comment on this. But, in my opinion you may have loss some due to detoxing toxins and will probably gain some back later. Your diet seems kind of light, but what do I know about it. Is that what your body is wanting or what you feel you should eat???

[veganman]

I am sure that some of the raw bodybuilders on the board would be the better one to comment on this. But, in my opinion you may have loss some due to detoxing toxins and will probably gain some back later. Your diet seems kind of light, but what do I know about it. Is that what your body is wanting or what you feel you should eat???

Hi Lay-Lay - thanks for the reply.

Can you tell me more what you mean by "light"? I am packing in all the food I can without causing even more bloat and discomfort.

[Lay-Lay]

Well, I am not much on rules and if that is comforable for you then I say stick with it. But as an experiment you might want to try more fruit and less avocado and nuts or juice. Usually for breakfast I have a fruit smoothie and then 1 to 3 pieces of fruit or a fruit salad. At lunch I usually have 4 or 5 pieces of fruit or a big salad or a half of a watermelon. Dinner lately has been salad with dressing or a avocado or green patte and some more fruit and sometimes an evening smoothie. But thats just me!

[Davylp25]

Be careful eating alot of fruit causes men especially to cleanse and lose weight...

I would say balance more. Clean out your body more so that you can absorb the foods you eat. Liver flush, Colon Cleanse etc.

When I first started and I lost sooo much weight. I started at around 200 now Im 165 and finally my body has finished really cleaning out. NOW IT's time for me to begin rebuilding healthy muscle, etc. It's been a journey. If you wanna know more just email me... Im no expert... But I know what it's like to go through it. Men lose way quicker than women. Usually muscle as well.

Some people can gain or maintain on alot of fruit, OTHER cleanse and clean and lose weight on lots of fruit. You have to crack your code to find out. It could be
High Greens
Medium fats
Low fruits
Meaning alot of green, good amount of fats, not alot of fruit, but some.

[NuttyRawMom]

I also don't claim to be an expert here, but what I do know is that no matter what diet you choose, you won't build muscle if you don't use it. What type of exercise do you do? Work on more strength training and toning and your body will build more muscle.

[juliebove]

First you need to find the cause of the bloat and discomfort. Easier said than done, I know. For my daughter and myself, it was food allergies. She has a severe banana allergy. I'm allergic to almonds. But almonds are the only food (of my food allergies) that relate to a vegan diet. For us, all it takes is a tiny speck of the allergen for us to get sick. I lost 12 pounds immediately when I stopped eating the allergens. Now some people might use the theory of eating no more of those foods meant taking in less calories. But I wasn't. If anything I was eating MORE calories because I added pumpkin seeds and coconut to my diet. And the bloat was all in my stomach area. I used to look pregnant. Okay, I still do. Kinda sorta. All of my excess weight is in that area. But I used to look REALLY pregnant.

In looking at your food intake, it would seem that you are taking in enough fat. And probably enough protein. But maybe not. You might try adding in some sprouts for extra protein. Or even foods that contain a small amount of protein, like corn.

You don't give your age or say what (if any) type of exercise you are doing. It could just be your age working against you. The older you get, the harder you have to work at building and maintaining muscle. I read some figures about this but can't remember where. I want to say Reader's Digest. It was several years ago. They gave a specific exercise, say curls with a dumbell. A 20 year old would have to do 8 reps on a daily basis to build muscle. Now this example was using a weight that was heavy enough to where the muscle was exhausted with 8 reps. A 20 year old would have to do 12 reps and a 40 year old would have to do 15 reps! The article also went on to say that the person would have to do 2-3 sets of this exercise daily. Now math was never my strong point so it's likely I am missing something obvious here. I just know I am over 40 now and have to do a heck of a lot more reps than I used to to see results.

I also know if you are retaining fluid in any way, your muscles will be less visible. You might want to make sure that you are drinking enough fluid throughout the day. It sounds odd but not drinking enough water can sometimes make you retain fluid.

[yeahbethany]

I think you have to learn to eat more than 5 bananas in one sitting... =)

Can you aim for 10? You may not have the stomach capacity yet, but you can stretch...

[Judy]

Well, I'd say don't cram it in if you really can't handle that. Eating should not about being having to force yourself to eat. But you have to be really honest towards yourself and take a good look at food and your mental attitude towards it.
Are you physically active? Because if you want to build muscles, as someone said before, you have to use them.
Also, you need to figure out what causes the bloating and stomach cramps. You may be allergic to something, perhaps the nuts.
And I hope you don't mind me asking, but do you have an eating disorder? Because I have the feeling you do. If so, you may want to look for professional help and not your standard nutricionist. The nutricionist will only be about the food, and this isn't just about the food. It isn't about calorie counting. This is about loving yourself more and changing your mental attitude. It hardly doesn't matter what food you eat, it can never be (fully) healing without the right attitude. I hope you don't feel offended by me saying this, because I don't know you, but I just have this feeling about you.

[veganman]

Wow - you guys are great! Thanks for all the wonderful responses!

For those asking about working out - yes, 3-5 times per week I am doing strength training. This has been decreasing, though, as I feel more and more tired and less able to lift. I will try to push myself to lift more, but it really wipes me out and I don't recover from the fatigue. Symptoms of overtraining without the overtraining. I think I am not taking in enough calories, but I am having difficulty getting more in without forcing myself.

As for the bloating, it isn't really a "bloat", but more of a full stomach. I should have clarified. I do, however, think there is something going on with my digestion as to how food seems to not move through me as fast as I think it should.

[solarliving]

maybe if you add more variety in your diet. I usually eat a green smoothie every morning but have been eating a couple of mangos instead. I ate another one last night and I think my body needs something in them. Try different veggies too. I am liking eggplant lately and lots of basil and tomatoes.

[Judy]

And what about wheat grass juice?

[ellenalesa]

Maybe smoothies would allow you to get more calories without feeling like you're stuffing them in?

Is hemp powder raw? Maybe you could use that as your protein powder.

Ellen

[Linda1970]

When you say bloating, do you mean constipated bloated or gaseous bloated?

[Graciebeliever]

Check that you are not bound up inside that will sap your energy a TON.

When my digestion slows man I feel it! I need a nap or I get cravings for the wrong stuff.

Some people won't use hot teas while raw, but if you do, then Senna tea is a MOVER so if you want some results Senna is for you :) You can make it in the way you make sun tea so as not to heat it and it works almost as well. thats how I make mine now. I also order it from a place that uses wild crafted and they say its raw.

I feel great after I use it :)

[daylene]

I'm no expert, but I did hear someone say that when you trasfer to a raw food diet you will lose the muscle you built eating SAD. Then you have to rebuild lean plant-protein muscle tissue which can last for the rest of your life. Do you think that might be part of what's happening to you? Because if so, it's no cause for alarm.

Of course i'm not addressing your bloating and caloric issues here, just the muscle mass question.

peace,
daylene

[juliebove]

Wow - you guys are great! Thanks for all the wonderful responses!

For those asking about working out - yes, 3-5 times per week I am doing strength training. This has been decreasing, though, as I feel more and more tired and less able to lift. I will try to push myself to lift more, but it really wipes me out and I don't recover from the fatigue. Symptoms of overtraining without the overtraining. I think I am not taking in enough calories, but I am having difficulty getting more in without forcing myself.

As for the bloating, it isn't really a "bloat", but more of a full stomach. I should have clarified. I do, however, think there is something going on with my digestion as to how food seems to not move through me as fast as I think it should.

This could be gastroparesis, a type of nerve damage that affects the stomach. Do you perchance have diabetes? It is more common in diabetics, but anyone can get it.

[veganman]

When you say bloating, do you mean constipated bloated or gaseous bloated?


Hi Linda1970 -

it varies, but usually more of a full stomach - food not going anywhere - constipated (bowel movements @ 1/day) type of bloat.

Solarliving - I think I have a great deal of variety, but I will keep going for more.

ellenalesa - I do a green smoothie...I could add the hemp. Did you have a different type of smoothie in mind?

Graciebeliever and Daylene - good thoughts. Thank you.

Juliebove - I have never heard of that. Do you know anything else about it?

[misslinda]

Hmmmm, suggestions Dude

since stomach wakes up about 9 am after liver cleansing all nite, I'd reverse the strawberries.


Do green smoothie in the morning...besides it's alkalizing,soft on the digestive system,helps build HCL and liver loves greens!

Do a high grade probiotic before breakfast 1 hours before eating. if you want to supplement

Keep low on fiber for the first week like if you eat an apple shave some of the fiber off and slowly add it back in that is only my personal opinion.

rough roughage need something like avacado that has cellulase to breakdown the fibers. other wise fermented foods do too.

stay hydrated but not overly watered! :p

good cardio nothing that over does you. deep breathing exercise are benefical to stomach. massaging the tailbone area is my latest craze---does wonders fo rthe bowels.

............what else hmmmmmmm.

[fiddler]

Veganman,

Yep, for someone who works out alot 1500 - 1800 calories is WAY LOW!
Doug Graham teaches that sweet fruit is a great source for calories. So, load up on the bananas, oranges, watermelon, yadda yadda yadda...

I've also read that muscle doesn't start being converted for fuel until nearly all the fat has been used first [ Graham says this doesn't happen until you get to below 2% bodyfat ]. Check out his articles and online forum.

There's plenty of links here too that discuss bodybuilding with several web links to guys who have succeeded in building muscle on a RAW diet. You should be able to find these links if you search this forum.

Cheers,
Fiddler

[misslinda]

I don't want to hinder what anyone is saying but do to his previous not too long history with severe anorexia, his body is malnourished and underworking. I think he ought to refrain from bodybuilding,over execising or the like. But again, only my personal opinion. ;)

[veganman]

I don't want to hinder what anyone is saying but do to his previous not too long history with severe anorexia, his body is malnourished and underworking. I think he ought to refrain from bodybuilding,over execising or the like. But again, only my personal opinion. ;)

MissLinda - thanks for looking out for me! :o However,. my severe anorexia was about 20 years ago, so some exercise now is great, if I could only eat and ABSORB and DIGEST enough calories. Eating is only half the battle.

After hearing everyone's thoughts on this post and the other's I have posted, I really think focusing on getting my digestion in better order is my next course of action. I don't think raw is causing any problems, except that I can't cram in as much calories as when on cooked because of the fiber. My theory right now is that something happened on my fast last year that created some problem in my digestion and absorption. I have a few leads for possible doctors to help. Hopefully one will work out. :rolleyes:

[fiddler]

Misslinda,

I didn't see where Veganman was anorexic in this post, sorry I missed that.

Of course, I'm certainly not qualified to offer medical, nutritional or fitness training advice and don't claim to. I will be more aware of this point for any of my future posts.

Best wishes to you Veganman on your journey. There are professionals out there that do consulting. I've heard that Doug Graham is well-respected and has counseled many top athletes as well as others. So, he may be a good contact for you.

As for achieving my goals, I like to find someone that has already made the journey I'm seeking. This way, I can follow in their steps and use him/her as a role model. That is, find someone who has been successful and apply the same strategies.

Best regards,
Fiddler

[misslinda]

Thank you for correcting me Veganman,

Can I ask, during POST anorexia, did you ever fully recover physically/digestively from your disorder? Myself post anorexia I never recovered phsycially, I mean yes, I gained some wieght but digestively,I didn't realize how much I had damaged.

How's work by the way? :)

[Leslie_L]

Have you tried any of the raw protein powders. I find they help me. There are a few out there. They usually contain Hemp. There is one called Thor's Raw Protien Powder. My Health food store has it but you can get it online at www.rawfood.com. I add them to my green smoothies in the morning.

HTH,

Leslie

[misslinda]

Misslinda,

I didn't see where Veganman was anorexic in this post, sorry I missed that.

Of course, I'm certainly not qualified to offer medical, nutritional or fitness training advice and don't claim to. I will be more aware of this point for any of my future posts.



No worries Fiddler,you didn't lose any brownie points tonite!~ :p I just get this panic mode b/c of my prior history with the same condition. LIkewise I am not a professional either here but offer peer suggestions and wish you the best too!

[veganman]

Misslinda,

I didn't see where Veganman was anorexic in this post, sorry I missed that.

Of course, I'm certainly not qualified to offer medical, nutritional or fitness training advice and don't claim to. I will be more aware of this point for any of my future posts.

Best wishes to you Veganman on your journey. There are professionals out there that do consulting. I've heard that Doug Graham is well-respected and has counseled many top athletes as well as others. So, he may be a good contact for you.

As for achieving my goals, I like to find someone that has already made the journey I'm seeking. This way, I can follow in their steps and use him/her as a role model. That is, find someone who has been successful and apply the same strategies.

Best regards,
Fiddler

Fiddler - you have nothing to apologize for. I did not mention here - MissLinda is referring to another post. You shared some great ideas that I will look into.

[veganman]

Thank you for correcting me Veganman,

Can I ask, during POST anorexia, did you ever fully recover physically/digestively from your disorder? Myself post anorexia I never recovered phsycially, I mean yes, I gained some wieght but digestively,I didn't realize how much I had damaged.

How's work by the way? :)

I believe I did recover physically. I had no real problems until about a year ago. However, I was doing a non-fat strict vegan (grains, fruit,veggies mostly, added some beans around 1997).

[Judy]

I'm sorry too if I offended you Veganman, I didn't know you were anorexic either and already recovered, just had a feeling because you were losing muscle and the diet didn't seem sufficient, this is usually not a good thing.

Here are some suggestions that may be of help for the bloating and for gaining some weight:
- tummy massage (really) or certain yoga asanas, breathing excercises
- eating slowly, with attention and chewing thoroughly (can make a major difference)
- try skipping the nuts for a while and see how that works, you can replace them with a little olive oil, avodo or seeds (nuts can be really heavy on digestion, almonds soaked and without skin could be a better digestible option)
- more fat doesn't necessarily mean you will gain weight, you may have to find a good ratio of the three different groups (fruits, vegetables, fat) that perhaps will work better for you
- smoothies are great: blend your fruit (or vegetables, you can make soups), not only will you get more in that way, it is easier for your digestion also (not to mention how delicious smoothies can be). the blending breaks down a lot of fibers, which makes it easier for your body. you can also add a bit of ground (golden) flax seed, hemp seed or olive oil while your at it.
- perhaps juicing greens will help, is much easier for digestion, and again, you will get more nutricion that way without having to cram in more food
- probiotics as miss linda mentioned, i also read in a book by sergei boutenko that a spoon of raw apple vinegar will aid in digestion, especially when you have problems with the fibers (you can put it on your dressing). another thing may be sauerkraut
- have you thought of superfoods? it is concentrated stuff, you don't need much of it and it will give your body something extra. wheat grass juice in the morning seems to be easily absorbed within 20 minutes by your body and will do it very good, you may want to do more research on that (i haven't tried it myself yet, but i've heard so many good things about it!). also: honey, beepollen (that's the powder from flowers and in my opinion just one Ts is unbelievably nutricious, it helped me enormously when i transitioned to a raw diet and i didn't have to use it for long), but you're vegan so perhaps: spirulina in powder form (add to your smoothies) or tablet form (marcus rohrer has a good quality and very affordable one), chia seed and there are other things as well, like goji berries etc, but I haven't tried those myself so perhaps someone else can chime in here. superfoods can be a good way to give your body something extra without having to eat a lot of extra food.
- be careful with the training at this moment. you may want to do less or even stop for the time being, maybe take some short walks or something gentle, until you're body and esp. muscles have become stronger. if you keep training, you may even lose more muscle at this point, and since you say it is very tiring, it isn't the best thing you can do now, it can be damaging. rest a lot and take good care, you can always pick it up when you are gaining more energy and more weight.

hope this helps!

[PATH301]

misslinda,
please explain this new procedure:

good cardio nothing that over does you. deep breathing exercise are benefical to stomach. massaging the tailbone area is my latest craze---does wonders fo rthe bowels.

My cardio's have reduced as well - I've also lost muscle size, but I'm working on that as well. But what is the tail bone business?

[misslinda]

misslinda,
please explain this new procedure:


My cardio's have reduced as well - I've also lost muscle size, but I'm working on that as well. But what is the tail bone business?


Geeeeeeeeeeeesh, have you nothing to add to this thread shorty???????? oh wait, that's me :D yes PATH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and I will using it for FAsting. There are so many neglected and "touch deprived" aread around the tailbone. WE sit on it daily, bend improperly and it gets all bunched up wehn stoamch doesn't feel good...........just watch --the people with bloating or bm's issues, watch the way their tailbone ( all the way to coccyx area) area moves........it's like their FOS :D seriously. A good massage stimulates that area---at least in my world :) :cool:

[wanja]

Hi Veganman,
Please note that my "advise" is based on a narrowed understanding of what your diet consists of. I am not sure what your typical eating day looks like but if it usually consists of as many bananas as you indicated then that might be the issue. I have cut back on my banana intake and my constant bloated feeling has significantly reduced! Try cutting back to at least 2 or less a day and see if you have any changes.
As far as the muscle loss (I won't address the weight loss since that is common with rawisim and I don't see fault in that) goes, try engaging in a physical activity that has/requires strength or involves resistance.
Hope this helps and best wishes to you! Keep up the great work!

cheers
wanja

[Linda1970]

I think 1 bowel movement is not bad and quite good for a lot of people. I had severe constipation for about 2 years. I tried a lot of herbal laxative, enema, magnesium, bowel cleanse, flaxseeds, you name one and I have probably have tried it.

I started seeing great improvement when I drank smoothies. Fruits or veggie without blending didn't help me because my digestive system was weak & I wasn't digesting them well. Smoothies every morning solved this problem.

Also, I drink about 2 glasses of water with a tsp of ACV the first thing in the morning. That seems to help a little too, but not as much as the smoothies.

Nowadays, if I drink my smoothies, I usually have 2-3 very good bowel movements. However, if I skip my smoothies, I will only have 1 bowel movement & the stool doesn't look as good. Sorry about the description. :p

[veganman]

I'm sorry too if I offended you Veganman, I didn't know you were anorexic either and already recovered, just had a feeling because you were losing muscle and the diet didn't seem sufficient, this is usually not a good thing.
hope this helps!

Judy - no offense taken at all. It was a keen observation. Thank you for the wonderful suggestions.

[veganman]

I think 1 bowel movement is not bad and quite good for a lot of people. I had severe constipation for about 2 years. I tried a lot of herbal laxative, enema, magnesium, bowel cleanse, flaxseeds, you name one and I have probably have tried it.

I started seeing great improvement when I drank smoothies. Fruits or veggie without blending didn't help me because my digestive system was weak & I wasn't digesting them well. Smoothies every morning solved this problem.

Also, I drink about 2 glasses of water with a tsp of ACV the first thing in the morning. That seems to help a little too, but not as much as the smoothies.

Nowadays, if I drink my smoothies, I usually have 2-3 very good bowel movements. However, if I skip my smoothies, I will only have 1 bowel movement & the stool doesn't look as good. Sorry about the description. :p

Thanks Linda - I do smoothies on most days, but find they make my stool very loose and don't seem to clean me out as much as more substantial food. It isn't stopping me from doing it, just doesn't seem to be helping in the digestion area. I do one bunch of greens and one or two pieces of fruit.

[PATH301]

hey veganman,
Here's the protein that I use some times. I've run out and need to pick some up myself. Manitoba Harvest Hemp protein powder at www.manitobaharvest.com

[veganman]

Thanks Path301 -

when I add Hemp Protein, I personally use Living Harvest, which is organic, raw, and good quality.

I don't use it much anymore (used to use it every morning) because of the common theme that we get plenty of protein from fruits, veggies, and nuts. I usually get between 50 and 70 grams per day without the hemp.

[debbyd]

Have you considered consulting with a naturopath, and would you consider taking any supplements? I went to a naturopath, who tested way more than just standard blood tests do, and she told me that everything looked great except my B12 and Vitamin D levels were in the toilet. B12 can cause muscle weakness and even neurological signs when very low as mine was. I began shots which helped, just to normalize them, can now keep them up with just some oral suppplements. Some of us may have been a bit out of balance to start with our nutrient levels and not even have known it. Just a thought, as this has helped me, and just brought me back to balance. If there is even just one nutrient you are very low in, your body may be trying to "catch up" at the expense of muscles and energy.
:) Deb

[veganman]

Hi DebbyD -

I consulted with a ND a few months ago, have been taking B complex and vitamin D, had various blood tests, used other supplements (trying various things over the last year), with no real change. The standard message I get is to eat more, but I don't want to pack in food that I am not absorbing.

I had an adjustment at a chiropractor a couple of days ago and that seemed to help to some degree.

I will look into the B12 shots. I have been supplementing lately with B12, but I may need the shots to get things moving.

Thanks for the feedback!

[misslinda]

Hey Veganman,

I hear you say repeatedly "absorption" issue. Why not tackle your stomach lining with some healing properties which is the most basic principle in apsorbtion?????? then go from there. no matter what viatmin,herb etc it's pointless if your lining is not functioning properly.

[veganman]

Hey Veganman,

I hear you say repeatedly "absorption" issue. Why not tackle your stomach lining with some healing properties which is the most basic principle in apsorbtion?????? then go from there. no matter what viatmin,herb etc it's pointless if your lining is not functioning properly.

Hi MissLinda-

I believe that is my next course of action and I am wanting assistance from a doctor to work with me on it. Part of me wants to do a cleanse and colonics but I know that could become addictive really quick anytime I am feeling "clogged" :eek: .

I feel I have tried different herbs and supplements and eating strategies to no real avail, however I am open to hearing more suggestions. Is there something you recommend?

[veganman]

Okay - I saw the GI doc today. She said I need more soluble fiber to help with the loose stools. She also said that it will help with "complete evacuation of the bowel." That is exactly what I am looking for! Additionally, she said that if I complete bowel movements, my hunger will increase and things will move along better.

Now, soluble fiber sources.....psyillium husks, oat bran, (plus Metamucil :eek: )..I am thinking I will try more soaked flax for now.

Any thoughts on this?

[luvnraw]

Found this sheet for cooked but I am guessing it would be similar with raw sources. Click here (http://www.nhlbi.nih.gov/chd/Tipsheets/solfiber.htm). Here is another one, click here (http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/fiber/NU00033). THis last one, click here (http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/nutritionsource/fiber.html), looks similar but adds a few new ones. Hope this helps! ;)

[rawnora]

Veganman,
Being raw can and will work as you want it to, if you don't allow the fears to derail you. Fear is the #1 cause of raw fooders not staying the course, and fear is a natural consequence of interacting with health professionals of all stripes, even seemingly harmless ones like physical therapists and personal trainers, who are used to seeing "athletes" with an inch or more of fat covering their musculature. They think this is normal since everyone has it, even those who are regarded as 'optimally' healthy in our culture.

Imo, it would be very helpful for you to get some guidance so you can learn to trust your body and allow it the time it needs. To that end, I'd like to offer you some free coaching if you're interested. If so, please email me privately through my website.

Kind regards,
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[jiujitsugirl]

yea Raw POwers a good one i always lift too but going raw does make it hard my bench was up to 90lbs and well i hate to think how much its gone down but im dextoxing im sure anyways i think its best to stick to a high reps while i detox and more bodyweight exercises and of course cardio it helps detox the body, good luck veganman

[Sharon in Colorado]

Veganman I really hope you take Nora up on the consult. It would be so helpful to work with a coach, especially someone who is well-versed in raw nutrition.

[veganman]

LuvnRaw - thanks for the links.

RawNora - thank you for the generous offer. I will e-mail you.

Sharon and jiujitsugirl - thanks for the supportive words.

Quite a journey we are on, isn't it!