Why the SAD names for food?

[juliebove]

I've often wondered this. Even with vegetarian or vegan food, we tend to give it names of meat type things or we shape it or flavor it in some way to be like meat. In some cases this is off putting to me and I'm not likely to try the recipe because of it. For instance, if something has the name BBQ or chicken in it, I'm not likely to try it because I never liked BBQ'd food or chicken. And I just saw a recipe for "toona" salad made with walnuts. But due the the ingredients in it and the comments by the author, it was designed to be some sort of imitiation tuna. She even said someone tried a bite not knowing what it was and thought it was tuna. Seems to me that if it is indeed a vegetarian or a vegan food it would go over better if it were not designed to sound like or look like a meat product. Or is it because we are trying to come up with things that our meat eating friends might be likely to try?

[codajess]

I've had this discussion with quite a few people and we've all come to the consensus that it's to make the food more "normal" for those who are reluctant to try it, i.e. meateaters.

[juliebove]

I've had this discussion with quite a few people and we've all come to the consensus that it's to make the food more "normal" for those who are reluctant to try it, i.e. meateaters.


I see. Well, I don't think it does that. In fact, most of the meat eaters I know seem to think this is comical.

[rawpriestess]

I don't think it has anything to do with eating meat, I haven't eaten meat in over a decade, but knowing that something is a nut pate' doesnt' tell me anything about the flavor or texture, but if someone calles it toona, or neatloaf, then I have a pretty good idea of the flavor and texture of the dish, based upon my past rememberances.


it's like my brownies, they taste and have the texture of cooked brownies, and are delicious, but if I called them date/walnut/cacao nib squares, you may or may not have any idea what is was supposed to taste or even look like.

so although Alissa has something called a date nut torte, and you can tell it has dates and nuts in it and it is supposed to be a torte, there are cooked tortes also called date nut tortes, so how exactly would you like us chefs to label our recipes, and still have enough room left on the page for the recipe itself??? LOL

[RawFoodieMom]

I think it's more like a way for those of us who've eaten a cooked diet for decades to tell what a dish is going to be like. Like if it's called "lasagna", at least we know it's some kind of layered dish with cheese-like textures and tomato sauce. If it was called something totally new, you'd have no idea what the dish is going to be like. Not that the raw versions always taste like the SAD versions, but at least you have some idea what the dish is. ;)

[rawpriestess]

Also, how do we KNOW these are SAD names given to raw food, maybe the RAW food had it first, way back when and the SAD eaters took the RAW names for Their food?

[juliebove]

Well, if I were making the walnut salad, I wouldn't try to flavor it like tuna and I would probably call it walnut salad. Your brownies do indeed taste like brownies so that seems like the right name for them. The date/nut torte however doesn't seem at all like a torte to me. Not that I've ever actually eaten a torte because those don't appeal to me. I did just look it up and what I thought a torte was, was wrong. Somehow I thought it was a cake with many layers. Apparently not. So that name might actually apply.

I guess I was mainly thinking of those foods that are named like meats or fish or obviously flavored to be like them. That just seems odd. And since I don't like chicken or turkey, I am not very likely to try any recipe that has that in the name because I presume the creator was attempting to make something that tastes like that food.

In Juliano's book he has something that he called "Swirled Bubblegum". The recipe is neither what I would called swirled nor is it any kind of gum or even flavored like gum. It's just dehydrated fruit.

I've devised some recipes as has my mother. We often name the food after the first person who asked us to make the dish again, using their name and then tacking on some other name like salad, medley, etc.

[juliebove]

Also, how do we KNOW these are SAD names given to raw food, maybe the RAW food had it first, way back when and the SAD eaters took the RAW names for Their food?

I kinda doubt that. I've studied the history of food. Yes, people have eaten raw food throughout history but seasonally. And in some parts of the country, eating raw vegetables is a new thing. I remember reading a part of a book set in India where a woman was ill and was given a raw carrot to eat. She objected because she'd never heard of eating carrots raw. But eventually she ate it and reluctantly ate some raw carrot daily because it made her feel better.

As I said in another post, the whole concept behind the cooking of food was to prevent us from getting ill from it. People were sometimes forced to eat food that was spoiled, because there was no other food. Heating it *might* kill off whatever icky stuff lurked in it. Of course it might not do that either. But in those days there were no antibiotics and we didn't know as much about these things so there was little that could be done. It was common for a family or person to keep a pot of soup or stew on the back burner or in the fireplace. The food was kept hot at all times because there was no refrigeration. Additional meat, vegetables or whatever was added to the pot as need be. The old "Pease Porridge" nursery rhyme goes back to this too. "Pease porridge hot, pease porridge cold, pease porridge in the pot nine days old!" The porridge or cereal if you will, was kept hot in the hopes of keeping it from going bad and more cereal was added to it each day. For many people, food was scarce in those days and they couldn't afford to waste any.

[rawpriestess]

this is true about the peas porrige hot, peas porrige cold, but that was not very long ago, a few centuries.

I believe that people started cooking food because they needed to preserve it and sun dehydration wasn't always possible, sometimes the food would spoil before it would dry, so they started heating rocks to dry it on, and then the rocks started getting hotter and hotter, as they kept on trying pretty soon they just cooked the food on the rocks, and I'm getting that this was way way back, before pots and things, so I am just getting this psychically, so I don't know how far back, but it "feels" right to me,

and actually I was making a joke about the names of food,

I'd suggest if you have a question about Juliano's name for something to ask him, I mean just email him and I'm sure he'll answer you, he seems like a nice enough fellow.

But evidentally my speculation on names for food isn't giving you what you wanted, so I'd go to the source of your original question, Juliano.

[madmel]

I think many people, including myself, just need something to relate to. Whether it's the taste, the texture or the look of a dish - for me, names I can relate to sometimes make it easier to decide what to uncook today.

I don't worry too much about names and I don't care about it either - but everyone is different.

mel

[RawFoodieMom]

I think RP has a point. Look at the word "salad", for one. Mainstream America has taken this word and brutalized it into meaning some pretty scary concoctions that have NOTHING to do with leafy greens. Like "macaroni salad". Cooked white pasta slathered in egg mayonnaise with teeny tiny bits of celery mixed in? That ain't no "salad" in my book. :eek:

LOL

[juliebove]

I think RP has a point. Look at the word "salad", for one. Mainstream America has taken this word and brutalized it into meaning some pretty scary concoctions that have NOTHING to do with leafy greens. Like "macaroni salad". Cooked white pasta slathered in egg mayonnaise with teeny tiny bits of celery mixed in? That ain't no "salad" in my book. :eek:

LOL

When I hear the word "salad" I don't necessarily think of leafy greens. I used to, but after trying to order a salad in NY or NJ, I learned that what I would get is anything but a tomato slice or a piece of lettuce. My brother went to England and he said there, the word "salad" usually means a single leaf of lettuce on a sandwich or accompanying your meal. If I want such a salad in a restaurant if I say "green salad" or "dinner salad" people usually know what I mean. With the exception of one local restaurant where they have a clueless waitress.

Their salad normally comes with chopped egg, bacon and croutons on it. I've never heard of egg or bacon on a salad unless it was a spinach salad. So I didn't think to ask for her to leave those things off. I did ask about croutons or seeds though because those are commonly put on there. I politely apologized for not knowing these things would be on the salads and then said my daughter and I could not eat them because of food allergies. So I asked for salads without the egg and bacon. All she did was remove the egg and bacon and didn't even do a very good job of it at that! And because my egg allergy is so severe, I wasn't able to eat my salad.

So the next time we went to this restaurant, I said I wanted only vegetables on our salad. To which she replied, "Yes! we only put vegetables on our salads." "Oh, gee... Last time there was egg and bacon and you said there were normally croutons on there." "Yes!" she replied brightly. This went on and on. She seemed to know that we wanted the lettuce but she couldn't figure out that we also wanted the tomato, cucumber and onion. Doh!

To me, a salad is any dish served cold that includes some sort of vegetables, fruit or dressing. Now my grandma used to serve something called "German Potato Salad" that was served hot. I don't recall anyone liking the stuff though and my dad said he used to have nightmares about it. Hehe.

As for the pasta salad, I have no qualms with calling it a salad. In our house we referred to such things as "deli salads". They were not something we ever made and the only time we ever had them was when we got them from the deli. At least the kind you described. I used to make a pasta salad that could be and often was a meal in itself. Yes, it had pasta, but also carrots, celery, green onion, peppers in all colors, radishes, olives, tomatoes and really any other raw veggies I happened to have around.

[Pailani]

I was raised on SAD foods, and sometimes a craving for something I won't ever have again strikes. Yes, I've had a craving for a tuna sandwich - and it's nice to have a raw recipe on hand to satisfy those cravings. But if the recipe wasn't named after the food it's supposed to imitate, how would I know which recipe to look for when I crave tuna?

[Coriander74]

I think RP has a point. Look at the word "salad", for one. Mainstream America has taken this word and brutalized it into meaning some pretty scary concoctions that have NOTHING to do with leafy greens. Like "macaroni salad". Cooked white pasta slathered in egg mayonnaise with teeny tiny bits of celery mixed in? That ain't no "salad" in my book. :eek:

LOL

This one made me laugh. I worked in a deli (2 of them actually) and some of the "salad kits" that we had made me laugh. "Broccoli Salad" sounds healthy right? Well sure, until you mix in the sugar-loaded dressing and the bacon. :eek: The potato salad was even worse, you couldn't even tell there were potatoes in it, it was one big glob of mayo-stuff.
*gag*

[lissomllama]

I agree, julieabove, that is why I pretty much always put quotes around the titles of my recipes. It still doesn't seem right but I can't bring myself to type it without the quotes. when I type "pea soup" (although, even in the cooked world, soup doesn't always mean cooked, Soup is kind of like salad but more watery. The term "soup" really means a watery or creamy mixture of foods eaten with a bowl and spoon.), I hope that people see it as a healthy raw version of it, but it does still pacify that cooked part of the mind, which is pretty much what gourmet raw is trying to do. I mostly eat very simple raw but every so often, I still need to pacify my cooked mind because I still get cravings and desires. I do find that the raw versions of things totally satisfy me now though, instead of being an okay alternative like they were when I first started. I agree though that we would be better off thinking of new names for things. It does get a little ridiculous when we use terms like "parsnip rice" when there isn't even any rice involved in the recipe. I doubt that this will stop though because it have become part of the modern raw way of life. It seems that it is the only way people can start out on raw these days. I fear that I still somewhat enjoy using modified cooked names with quotes, but at least I am aware of it.

[lissomllama]

As far as salad goes, a salad really doesn't mean greens, kind of like a soup, it means a mixture of things put together and eaten harmoniously. Otherwise, we would just call it "lettuce, tomato and cucumber". I would never condone eating cooked but 'salad' really can mean an array of things.

[Rawkinlocs]

It's basically all about association. Also, keep in mind that not all raw fooders were vegan/vegetarian prior to going raw...a lot of folks go raw from the SAD and so for them, it is very much about associating the raw food dishes with something familar to them when they were eating cooked.

I also think that oftentimes someone will create a recipe and it will remind them of something or taste like something familiar and thus, the name is given to it.

Maybe too, it's all about some raw fooders wanting a feeling of not being deprived so when a SAD fooder says something like, "I don't see how you can give up cake, pie, ice cream, brownies, burgers, pasta, etc." then a raw fooder can say, "Whaddaya mean give up all that stuff?? I STILL eat burgers, pasta, ice cream, cookies, cake, etc. and it's better for me!"

I mean, some vegans may refuse to ever eat a piece of meat due to ethics or what have you, but that's not to say that some (not all) ever really despised the TASTE of meat! Yeah, it might seem disgusting to eat flesh knowing how animals are treated, etc. but that doesn't mean that they necessarily didn't enjoy the flavor of animal products such as meat or dairy products and thus, don't necessarily mind eating a mock meat of sorts whether it's the cooked vegan soy meat analogues or the mock "meat" dishes in the raw food recipe books such as "mock tuna", "mock salmon", "burgers", "cheese", etc.

So there could be various reasons for people wanting to associate raw food prepared recipes with cooked foods...be it for comfort eating, to not feel deprived, to get people who are cooked to eat raw or simply because a raw food recipe just reminds you of a cooked dish.

Some things may be better left being called something else, especially when there is absolutely no similarity of taste whatsoever like with the mashed potatoes...I just don't think anything is going to taste like mashed potatoes except mashed potatoes. So maybe it's best to just call it something like, "Cauliflower mash" or "Creamed Cauliflower" and let it be a stand-alone dish...but some things (like RP's brownies or the butter pecan ice cream) really do taste like or very close to their SAD counterparts :)

[juliebove]

It's basically all about association. Also, keep in mind that not all raw fooders were vegan/vegetarian prior to going raw...a lot of folks go raw from the SAD and so for them, it is very much about associating the raw food dishes with something familar to them when they were eating cooked.

I also think that oftentimes someone will create a recipe and it will remind them of something or taste like something familiar and thus, the name is given to it.

Maybe too, it's all about some raw fooders wanting a feeling of not being deprived so when a SAD fooder says something like, "I don't see how you can give up cake, pie, ice cream, brownies, burgers, pasta, etc." then a raw fooder can say, "Whaddaya mean give up all that stuff?? I STILL eat burgers, pasta, ice cream, cookies, cake, etc. and it's better for me!"

I mean, some vegans may refuse to ever eat a piece of meat due to ethics or what have you, but that's not to say that some (not all) ever really despised the TASTE of meat! Yeah, it might seem disgusting to eat flesh knowing how animals are treated, etc. but that doesn't mean that they necessarily didn't enjoy the flavor of animal products such as meat or dairy products and thus, don't necessarily mind eating a mock meat of sorts whether it's the cooked vegan soy meat analogues or the mock "meat" dishes in the raw food recipe books such as "mock tuna", "mock salmon", "burgers", "cheese", etc.

So there could be various reasons for people wanting to associate raw food prepared recipes with cooked foods...be it for comfort eating, to not feel deprived, to get people who are cooked to eat raw or simply because a raw food recipe just reminds you of a cooked dish.

Some things may be better left being called something else, especially when there is absolutely no similarity of taste whatsoever like with the mashed potatoes...I just don't think anything is going to taste like mashed potatoes except mashed potatoes. So maybe it's best to just call it something like, "Cauliflower mash" or "Creamed Cauliflower" and let it be a stand-alone dish...but some things (like RP's brownies or the butter pecan ice cream) really do taste like or very close to their SAD counterparts :)

I guess that makes sense then. I am one who doesn't like the taste of meat. So I would normally shy away from anything that appears to be an imitation of meat. The All American Bocca Burgers were an exception. I actually liked those but quit eating them because they contain soy. I am not sure what taste the makers were going for though because whenever I made them for people, they'd like them but ask me what kind of meat it was.

As for the cauliflower, this is something I was already familiar with. This is a standard dish for low carbing diabetics. They mash up cooked cauliflower and call it "mashed potatoes". I was never tempted to try this though, finding both the taste and aroma of cooked cauliflower to be vile. I can eat a small piece of it raw but that's about the extent of it.

[sport]

I'm not likely to try it because I never liked BBQ'd food or chicken. And I just saw a recipe for "toona" salad made with walnuts. But due the the ingredients in it and the comments by the author, it was designed to be some sort of imitiation tuna. She even said someone tried a bite not knowing what it was and thought it was tuna. Seems to me that if it is indeed a vegetarian or a vegan food it would go over better if it were not designed to sound like or look like a meat product. Or is it because we are trying to come up with things that our meat eating friends might be likely to try?
I so agree with you.
I would not even attempt to make the mock tuna or anything with a name like that. I have an automatic disgust button that these things press.

[exurb]

I'll also add to the discussion above that I see so many people including people on here, desperately wanting raw analogues to their sad favorites. Help, I need sesame chicken, help I need Phat Thai,, I'm dying for a burrito, etc., so even though you might not need "mock" dishes, there are many to whom they appeal.

My hubby made me laugh the first time I made "mock tuna". He asks "what's this?" I say "mock tuna"... He says "How do you mock a tuna? Tu-na... Tu-na... I'm mocking you... Chicken of the Sea... bok bok bok..." :rolleyes:

[Lay-Lay]

its is all about appealing to you. you can change the title. and i rarely leave a recipe the same as it is written.

[Revvell]

Tell ya what. Write a recipe book and name the foods whatever you like. Personally, I like ~ ug bugga bugga, triple tiple to, hag walla walla and doodle dop. I'm sure y'all are wondering what those are and just dying to have some. Oh! Are they desserts, main dishes, soups or....? I could put them in sections but then they'd be sort of like SAD. How about if we just have some hagwalla walla w/ a side of doodle dop? Enticing, eh???

Revvell

[Lay-Lay]

Tell ya what. Write a recipe book and name the foods whatever you like. Personally, I like ~ ug bugga bugga, triple tiple to, hag walla walla and doodle dop. I'm sure y'all are wondering what those are and just dying to have some. Oh! Are they desserts, main dishes, soups or....? I could put them in sections but then they'd be sort of like SAD. How about if we just have some hagwalla walla w/ a side of doodle dop? Enticing, eh???

Revvell


hmmmm.....those sound like willy wonka and the chocolate factory recipes. I will await a copy of the book to hit the shelves....LOL

[Revvell]

hmmmm.....those sound like willy wonka and the chocolate factory recipes. I will await a copy of the book to hit the shelves....LOL


LMSSSAO!

Revvell

[Tirza]

exurb and Revvell, those posts are real side-splitters! Cuuute!

julieabove,
We were vegetarians for a number of years before vegan and before raw. In our circles, many were using the canned and frozen "meat analogues" made by Loma Linda, Worthington, etc. My husband scathingly disagreed with it all, saying if you weren't eating meat, then why were you giving the appearance of eating it? If you were craving it, then how would a fake satisfy the craving? It would be like someone smoking hay or some other substance in the hope of avoiding tobacco.

I didn't think they tasted like the "real thing" either and was really frustrated. Many family members and guests agreed. Couldn't stand the stuff. ("You call THIS a BURGER or a HOT DOG!!??" - while gagging) Later on I really clicked into them and liked them better than the "real thing" because it felt cleaner to be putting things made of beans and grains etc. into my mouth, rather than muscles and skin and gristle and blood veins baby calf "formula" (Please forgive me, those with sensitive stomachs, but what really put my off dairy was my husband's scornful name for milk. We lived near a lot of dairy farmers so he knew what went on in the dairy parlours. So he called milk a "mastitis milkshake". YUUUK

We both grew up in families that ate heavy meat and dairy. He never liked the taste of meat, while I did. So eventually I really loved those substitutes and didn't mind at all that they were called by names that hinted at what they were supposed to replace. But they were expensive and we were young and poor so it wasn't much of an issue.

My answer to the question of why do we call them by SAD names, is this:
I really believe it is only a matter of flavour identification.

You are saying that you don't like meat anyway so seeing a recipe using a name to remind you of a meat dish would immediately turn you off. Fair enough. You and my husband would be in the same camp there. But think of it another way-if you know you don't like certain flavours, isn't it a good idea to see in the title of the recipe that this is a meat-like (savoury) flavour so you would be fore-warned and know which ones you wouldn't want to try! Seeing them named like that works for you that way.

Just out of interest, if you don't like tuna, do you like seaweeds? I was just wondering. They say that seaweed imparts a fishy flavour to things, but I didn't really notice that.

People have really different tastes, as we know. Some crave sour, salty, savory, bitter things. Others crave sweet, oily etc. or whatever combination thereof... Better we should have a way to tell what a recipe is if we do or don't like a certain flavour combination.

So when I see a recipe that implies tuna flavour, I might be anxious to find one that just suits me because it will help satisfy that longing for savoury flavours. I think that might be it. It's the flavour, not the actual meat we crave. What do you think?

We shouldn't be too hard on each other's efforts to make it in this diet. I don't think anyone is trying to be offensive, just to help identify flavour combinations. :)

Further on that point; I find it very hard to navigate a recipe book when the index is loaded with names like Aunt Suzy's Famous Salad, or Sharon's Extra Special Dessert. It doesn't tell me anything at all. I don't mind seeing credit for the originator given in a subtitle, but unless you have another whole searchable index for ingredients, it is a real problem. I have my recipes organized on my computer under the usual headings, like Main Dishes, Side Dishes, Cracker and Bread-type dishes, Beverages, Soups, Desserts etc. Within those headings I further do this:

Crackers, Banana Chewy Delight from ....
Crackers, Flax with Almond meal from ....
Crackers, Pizza Spicy Crackers from ....

Same for Desserts:
Cake, Almond Date Torte from ....
Cake, Carrot Layer Cake from Alissas Forum
Cookies, Chocolate Chip ...
Cookies, Lemon Chewies from Alissas Forum

You get the idea. That way they are categorized - the type of recipe is put first and sorts in alphabetical order, - the title of the recipe is the next sorting, then perhaps with the source. It helps so I don't have to open every file to check it out.

[sport]

Tell ya what. Write a recipe book and name the foods whatever you like. Personally, I like ~ ug bugga bugga, triple tiple to, hag walla walla and doodle dop. I'm sure y'all are wondering what those are and just dying to have some. Oh! Are they desserts, main dishes, soups or....? I could put them in sections but then they'd be sort of like SAD. How about if we just have some hagwalla walla w/ a side of doodle dop? Enticing, eh???

Revvell
Remind me not to come to your house for dinner.

[Revvell]

Remind me not to come to your house for dinner.


Awwww c'mon! Be a sport. :D

[Judy]

My answer to the question of why do we call them by SAD names, is this:
I really believe it is only a matter of flavour identification.

So when I see a recipe that implies tuna flavour, I might be anxious to find one that just suits me because it will help satisfy that longing for savoury flavours. I think that might be it. It's the flavour, not the actual meat we crave. What do you think?


I agree, it is the flavour. And sometimes the textures and the memories that are attached to certain scents and flavours. I'm from Indonesian heritage and as a kid, I loved the crispy spicey fried chicken wings my mother always made, no KFC jokes please... ;), she was the only one who could ever make it like that... Or the chinese dark red marinated chicken in the oven my dad made. And a whole lot more: hearthy food like bapao, risoles and other things that aren't western.
I had this thing for these hearthy spicey meat things especially chicken, and Indonesian snacks with a crispy or soft layer of dough or rice on the outside and a hearthy, spicey meat and sometimes vegetable or bean filling on the inside... So yes, it is about the taste and the memory, because I could certainly do without the meat and the frying.
Years ago, when I became a vegetarian, I happily ate vegetarian versions of Indonesian food, because my mother is an excellent cook, and a lot of those snacks contained special spices and vegetables, so she could easily substitute the meat (except for the crispy fried chicken :(, there was never a substitute for that).
If you think of it, lots of recipes taste a certain way because of the condiments and cooking methods, not because of the meat itself. I couldn't care less for chicken by itself, or chicken filet, which just tastes bland and sometimes even plain gross.
I also liked the taste/idea and creaminess of cheesecake, however, I have never really liked milk and my body didn't always agree (my body could handle it, but not to it's delight) and often found cheesecake and stuff just too sweet and containing too much junk, so I hardly ever ate it. To my great delight, it is easy and even tastier to make cheesecake from almonds, fresh fruit etcetera, which has great creamy taste and texture. If only I had known this ages ago!

[juliebove]

Tell ya what. Write a recipe book and name the foods whatever you like. Personally, I like ~ ug bugga bugga, triple tiple to, hag walla walla and doodle dop. I'm sure y'all are wondering what those are and just dying to have some. Oh! Are they desserts, main dishes, soups or....? I could put them in sections but then they'd be sort of like SAD. How about if we just have some hagwalla walla w/ a side of doodle dop? Enticing, eh???

Revvell

Since Walla Walla Sweets (onions) are a big thing in this part of the country, I would assume anything that had that in the name would have those in it. But the "hag" part reminds me of Haggis and I don't think I'd ever eat that!

It wasn't the names of the foods so much as wondering why they were being made to imitate foods they are not. But I think this has fairly well been answered. It's not just raw foods that do this either. I have several books for people with food allergies. They do the same thing. Sometimes it is obvious they are trying to mimic a "real" food but in terms of texture and taste they often miss the mark.