dairy or eggs?

[endcruelty]

i dont eat raw but am little curious..... since you can eat eggs raw and have raw milk, do you guys still eat and drink dairy and eggs or do you focus on a raw diet more from a vegan viewpoint? :)

[SedonaSun]

Welcome!

This board focuses on a raw vegan lifestyle...so no dairy, no eggs :)

[rawpriestess]

This is a vegan raw support board, so although there may be some who eat dairy or eggs, that isn't what this board is all about, if you read the mission statement, you will understand our purpose here, more clearly

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3289

[endcruelty]

oops :) ya that mission statement pretty much summed it up :)

ok i dont wanna put myself out as an ass on here or anything but..... how come there is a recipe with honey on the main site? honey isnt really a vegan product :p

[Mookie]

Honey is not a vegan product. I use agave nectar in its place for any recipes.

[rawpriestess]

We use agave' nectar instead of honey in any recipe that calls for honey, we also use Nama Shoyu instead of Braggs, we all progress with new raw knowledge, and as we do, we change many things that we thought were raw and are not. it's all a learning experience.

[exurb]

Hey endcruelty, welcome, nice to have you here.

I know different vegans feel different ways about honey. But many people in general are so out of touch with how our food is grown they don't know this. If you don't want bees, you won't have too many cucumbers, squash, apples, etc., because in most of those cases, a bee is required to pollinate, otherwise no fruit or veggie. So farmers routinely "rent" bees for pollination of those fruits and veggies (Because of widespread spraying with pesticides, there is generally no longer enough natural bees to pollinate our fruits and veggies). So if it weren't for beekeepers and their bees and setting them up at farms, many of those veggies and fruits would not be created.

Organic beekeeping has stricter requirements than conventional, such as leaving a certain amount of the bees own honey for the bees instead of taking all their honey and feeding them cheaper sugar syrup.

It's individual choice as to which side anyone sits on of this, and I guess a pollinated cucumber or an apple is less of an animal product than a bee's honey, but many of our fruits and veggies actually involve the use of bees and wouldn't be there if a bee didn't pollinate them. If it's a pollinated fruit or veggie and it came from a commercial farm, there's a pretty good chance honey bees were involved.

If you don't eat honey, you can just substitute agave (from a sort of cactus) for honey in any recipe.

[endcruelty]

bees used for fruits and veggies? ........ thats a 1st ... i'll have to l00k that up :)

ya im gonna get that nector stuff but i use stevia for a lot of things and that stuff has no calories or carbs .... it even makes water not so boring :)

[RawFoodieMom]

Hey endcruelty... Welcome to the board! I'm just about 2.5 hours East of you, depending on what part of Toronto you're in. :)

Debra

[Shan]

Endcruelty... I'm not sure of the details, but basically there are some fruits and veggies that won't grow unless a bee lands on it's flower and basically mix the pollen it carried on it's 'feet' from other fruit and veggie blossoms on the other blossom. It like sort of carries the pollen needed to 'fertilize' the flower so it can produce fruit. Am I right people?

Ohhh, and CRUD!!! ... I've been eating non-pasturized honey thinking it's raw!!!

[RawFoodieMom]

Ohhh, and CRUD!!! ... I've been eating non-pasturized honey thinking it's raw!!!
Honey that is not pasteurized and not processed or heated in any way IS RAW... there is just debate on whether or not it's Vegan. Some say that those who are vegan except for honey are Beegans... But anyway. :)

Edited to add: A good way to tell if your honey is really raw is if it's solid. If you can pour it or squeeze it out it's not raw. Raw honey has to be scooped with a spoon and is very thick.

Debra

[codajess]

EndCruelty: I tried messaging you, but I forgot that private messages have been disabled.
Anyhoo, I brought up the same subject the other day. A lot of people here have said this forum is for the raw vegan lifestyle, but the same people say they use honey for cleansing purposes, or as an ingredient. I asked for someone to explain how they call themselves vegan but use honey. I didn't get any responses. Makes me wonder, too.

[rawfigure]

Knowing a number a Vegans...this is not an absolute ..like say animal meat is. I know some Vegans who use it some who do not. So maybe that is why. Its like Raw..some thing Cashews Raw some think Not !

[ShantiDass]

No, honey isn't vegan. Just because people say they are vegan and use honey doesn't mean it's true. It's like when people say they are vegetarian and they eat chicken and/or fish. They really aren't and it makes it difficult for the rest of us who truly are what we say we are.

If people want to use honey, fine, that's their decision. I just wish they wouldn't say they were vegan.

[Rawkinlocs]

This honey issue has come up many times here and honestly, if the standards for being a vegan are as strict and black and white as many of you say it is, then I personally can't justify calling this a vegan site if we advocate the use of honey and I say this MAINLY because I have not seen the process that occurs when honey is produced.

This is why I really don't call myself a vegan (don't care too much for labels anyway and don't NEED a label to identify or validate who I am)...I am a person who eats raw foods (mainly) and chooses not to put meat, dairy or eggs in my body. But I have used honey both internally and externally. But for the most part, I don't eat honey mainly because I don't like the taste all that much and prefer the more neutral taste of agave.

Now here's the thing...many are not aware of the process that occurs when honey is made and don't consider it a non-vegan product although most strict vegans insist it DOES harm bees in one way or another - although I've also seen arguments where some say it harms bees and others say it does not...depending on who the beekeeper is I guess. But I also realize that some people are not vegans for ethical reasons. Some people are moreso "dietary vegans" than "ethical vegans" meaning, they don't want to EAT animal products mainly for health reasons (their OWN health) but have no qualms with wearing leather or they don't check to make sure every product they use isn't tested on animals or doesn't contain any animal products or by-products.

There seem to be some strict standards when it comes to being a vegan...if you break one of the tiniest "rules", you are NOT considered a vegan.

But why is it with raw, it's not so "all-or-nothing"? I mean, they say that if you consume, what is it, 70-75% or more raw foods you ARE a raw fooder? But if you consume 90% of your foods vegan and eat honey, you are NOT a vegan?!

I was thinking about this a few weeks ago...people get really testy about the whole treatment of animals thing, but what about when you drive on the freeway and bugs are getting smashed on your windshield? Do you NOT drive? What about when you walk down the sidewalk and you are (unknowingly) stepping on ants and other insects in passing? If your child gets lice, do you allow the lice to live in your child's hair (or YOUR hair?) or do you do something to get rid of them? If you go outside and discover down the street your child is about to get attacked by a pitbull (or other dog), do you try to ward the dog off by any means necessary or do you allow the dog to chase and attack your child to protect the rights of that animal? If a brown recluse spider is found in your home and you KNOW this spider is very dangerous, what do you do...allow it to "share your home" or do you kill it before it has a chance to do MAJOR harm to you or your family members?

I know you'll probably say that it's about ethics and not harming animals who are not doing any harm and I understand and realize that...but you can't sit back and judge others for making decisions to eat or use honey when this isn't a perfect world and situations may arise where you just never know WHAT you will do or how you will handle it.

This site may not be a TRULY vegan site since honey is used by some, but bottom line is, it IS a site where the consumption of dairy, eggs and cheese is not advocated.

I will try and ask Alissa to perhaps come and address the honey issue once and for all from her standpoint seeing this is her board and we'll go from there.

[codajess]

There are no "dietary vegans." If a person abstains from consuming all animal products, but still wears leather/fur, has animal products/byproducts in their non-consumable items, they are strict vegetarians. Vegan is a lifestyle, not just a way of eating.

I don't understand why they have to say "raw vegan" if they aren't. Why not just be a raw foodist. If the eggs/dairy come up, then just say you don't eat them. You can be a raw foodist and NOT eat everything that is technically raw. Just because I was a vegetarian didn't mean I ate every kind of vegetable.

rawkinlocs: It has nothing to do with the process of getting the honey, if the bees were harmed or not. Majority of ethical vegans do it because they don't want to take ANYTHING from an animal. Keeping bees captive so you can take their honey is deemed exploitation, that is what they don't want to be part of.

I'm only speaking for myself, but I'm not "judging" anyone for using honey. I'm simply asking why people are calling themselves vegan when they aren't. Specifically someone who was judging someone else, and saying not to look here for support in justifying consuming a certain cooked food when it's a raw vegan site, when that person eats/uses honey. That's what got me curious enough to ask about the vegan label instead of just the raw food label.

I personally don't understand the whole "i'm <insert percentage here> raw" I think you are, or you aren't. The more raw, the merrier, obviously. But that's like someone who eats meat daily or at all saying they're "<insert percentage here> vegetarian."

[Rawkinlocs]

There are no "dietary vegans." If a person abstains from consuming all animal products, but still wears leather/fur, has animal products/byproducts in their non-consumable items, they are strict vegetarians. Vegan is a lifestyle, not just a way of eating.

Okay, whatever...again, I personally don't really care since I don't care to label myself anyway...hope you didn't miss my whole point by getting stuck on that one part of my whole post.

[Rawkinlocs]

I don't understand why they have to say "raw vegan" if they aren't. Why not just be a raw foodist. If the eggs/dairy come up, then just say you don't eat them. You can be a raw foodist and NOT eat everything that is technically raw. Just because I was a vegetarian didn't mean I ate every kind of vegetable.
Touche'! I understand that and I guess it's probably because people like labels.


rawkinlocs: It has nothing to do with the process of getting the honey, if the bees were harmed or not. Majority of ethical vegans do it because they don't want to take ANYTHING from an animal. Keeping bees captive so you can take their honey is deemed exploitation, that is what they don't want to be part of.
Okay, I understand that. Again, many don't understand and realize what is involved with it at all and just as you have some who think they are vegetarians because they don't eat RED MEAT but eat fish, you have some who think they are vegans although they eat honey.

I'm not trying to justify it, I'm just saying that maybe a lot of people don't realize that by taking on the label of vegan means much more than what they do or don't eat.

But I also understand that like with anything, things happen in steps...a process. Changing of the eating habits, for many, is a start and then once they become more and more enlightened, they start naturally wanting to avoid any and all animal products, wear only natural fibers, recycle, compost, etc.

But I digress...

[endcruelty]

i'll say this, honey is not vegan and im sticking to it. if "vegans" say they use honey because the bees are not hurt or honey is what they make naturally, i could say the same thing about a cow that makes milk because it produces it naturally. and as long as the cow is treated humanlly i can use it and call myself vegan, does that make sence??? using what a bee makes is not vegan, plain and simple, no matter how nice they are treated.

and ya about people still eating fish or chicken and calling themself vegan (or vegetarian) just makes me laugh. and how people say the fish or chickens brains are so small and how they cant feel anything. you slit the chickens throat does it just stand there and continue to do whatever it was doing? hell no it frantically runs and screams of pain and same thing for a fish. it makes me sick.

also on labelling yourself vegan, i try not to the same thing just because i know i am not 100% vegan and i dont feel i "deserve the label". im just some guy who unconsciously eat animals :)

edit: oops i meant unconsciously ;)

[codajess]

Rawkinlocs: I understand your posts. I'm just responding to what you said.

It just seems like one of those things that someone may do until they learn better, then they stop doing it. I'm just wondering why people who seem to know better are still using the label, that's all.

[codajess]

also on labelling yourself vegan, i try not to the same thing just because i know i am not 100% vegan and i dont feel i "deserve the label". im just some guy who consciously eat animals :)


You consciously eat animals, huh? :p

[Rawkinlocs]

Endcruelty and Codeajess, I feel where yall coming from!

Anyone care to address this part of my post above? :D


I was thinking about this a few weeks ago...people get really testy about the whole treatment of animals thing, but what about when you drive on the freeway and bugs are getting smashed on your windshield? Do you NOT drive (as to prevent the bug/car collisions)? What about when you walk down the sidewalk and you are (unknowingly) stepping on ants and other insects in passing? If your child gets lice, do you allow the lice to live in your child's hair (or YOUR hair?) or do you do something to get rid of them? If you go outside and discover down the street your child is about to get attacked by a pitbull (or other dog), do you try to ward the dog off by any means necessary or do you allow the dog to chase and attack your child to protect the rights of that animal? If a brown recluse spider is found in your home and you KNOW this spider is very dangerous, what do you do...allow it to "share your home" or do you kill it before it has a chance to do MAJOR harm to you or your family members?

=====
and would acting on any of those in a way that harmed the animal involved make you any less vegan? Why or why not in either event?

[codajess]

Anyone care to address this part? :D


I was thinking about this a few weeks ago...people get really testy about the whole treatment of animals thing, but what about when you drive on the freeway and bugs are getting smashed on your windshield? Do you NOT drive (as to prevent the bug/car collisions)? What about when you walk down the sidewalk and you are (unknowingly) stepping on ants and other insects in passing? If your child gets lice, do you allow the lice to live in your child's hair (or YOUR hair?) or do you do something to get rid of them? If you go outside and discover down the street your child is about to get attacked by a pitbull (or other dog), do you try to ward the dog off by any means necessary or do you allow the dog to chase and attack your child to protect the rights of that animal? If a brown recluse spider is found in your home and you KNOW this spider is very dangerous, what do you do...allow it to "share your home" or do you kill it before it has a chance to do MAJOR harm to you or your family members?

=====
and would acting on any of those in a way that harmed the animal involved make you any less vegan?



Sure, I'll bite. In my opinion, I think there's a difference between having a situation come upon you like the ones you mentioned, and choosing the situation. In what you mentioned, those are all things that weren't your choice. They occurred to you. In those situations, you do what you think is best at the time. Obviously if someone has a choice between having lice and not having lice, they (I would think) would choose the latter. If a dog was gnawing on your child, you're going to do what you think is right at that time. You wouldn't (again, i hope) choose to let a dog gnaw on your child. You aren't choosing to get lice so that you can kill them, then calling yourself veg*n. You aren't provoking a dog to attack so that you can kill it, and still call yourself veg*n. That's the difference between choosing the burger or the salad.

People have choices when it comes to their food, their bathroom products, their clothes. Being vegetarian or vegan is making a choice to choose the products that cause the least amount of pain/suffering/harm.

Sorry. I'm tired, it's been a long day. If some of my sentences don't make sense...well, oh well.

ETA: You do the most you can. That's like the people who say "I won't make a difference, so I'm not going to try at all." "If I stopped eating meat it wouldn't save all the animals, so I'm not going to, what's the point?" That, to me, is like saying "I can't stop all domestic abuse just by NOT hitting my wife, so I might as well do it." And yes. I do think they are exactly the same logic. Complete doodoo.

If that dog is biting my niece, and its at a point where i can pull the dog off of her, I'm going to pull the dog off of her. I'm not going to shoot it if I don't have to.

[Rawkinlocs]

Intersting...thanks for replying! :)

[RawFoodieMom]

I'm sorry, but since honey is the only thing I consume that has anything to do with animals (and bees aren't really "animals" are they? They're insects, but I digress) I don't see myself stopping from calling myself vegan, and if you have to label me then maybe there should be another label you should call me. I don't see myself describing my food consumption by saying:

"I'm a raw foodist. I'm not vegan, but I don't eat meat, poultry, fish, eggs, milk, cheese, or any other type of meat or dairy product, with the exception of honey."

Ummm... a bit long. I think that one thing that needs to be realized is that not everyone has chosen to stop eating animal products for the same reason. A lot of us here used to be meat eaters, and have chosen to make a change for HEALTH reasons. I think that's really where all this controversy is stemming from.

I respect your choices.

Debra

[RawFoodieMom]

Rawkinlocs, I think it's a good idea for Alissa to give her thoughts on this since it's her board. Hopefully she can find some time to stop in. I love it when she posts! :)

[Sharon in Colorado]

I'd refer to my eating style as Beegan (http://curezone.com/blogs/m.asp?f=67&i=479) but then there's the occasional miscroscopic bug that may fly into my mouth or that snuck into my salad.

I guess that is why I also stay away from labels.

[RawFoodieMom]

Sharon, thanks for sharing the link. I had wondered if "beegan" was a widely used "title" or not. ;)

[rawpriestess]

Rawfoodiemom, I've heard people who are vegan except eat honey, call themselves beegan, so you now have a new label if you want it.

To answer another question:

I used to use honey to do my dishes and on my face and body, and very recently someone asked about this vegan issue, it got me thinking.

so, Now I no longer use honey, I now use only fruits to wash with, mostly lemon and strawberries, works well, and I use agave' nectar in my recipes, instead of honey, but I much prefer medjool dates in my own dishes at home.

So, I think as someone said, this lifestyle is a process, I did wake up one day and Know I would NEVER eat meat again, but it wasn't that way with dairy or eggs, or honey, so I'm not sure what the difference is.

But now I am a vegan, and I've lived that way for many years, except I did use honey to wash with, now I don't so I guess I have evovled.

[rawpriestess]

Rawkie,


I've thought of this too, I think that is why driving isn't necessairly the best way to travel, and I don't like to wear shoes and walk on the sidewalk either, as I don't feel we are in touch with our Mother Earth etc.

But just for the state of clarity.

I feel that there is intention and attention

intention is what it is all about, attention is only a minor part of the theory.

When I was going to church religiously (pun intended) LOL, and I finally left, I was 19, and I had questions, some of those questions were, If killing is wrong, then why do we have police and soldiers and why do we have a death penalty in prison? the church couldn't answer my questions, and they told me that I had no faith.

I just wanted to understand, so I started reading all kinds of metaphysical books, and I did the one thing that I knew would get me a great answer, I asked my mom, she told me that it was all about the intention of the person involved.

If you are defending yourself or your child, and you kill someone, your intention was not necessarily to do harm, but to stop another from doing harm so you are not considered a bad person, and will not go to hell, etc. but if your intention was to deliberately in cold blood to harm someone specifically for your own gain, then that was not a good thing.

The attention (the action) was the same, but the intention was not the same.

I believe this to be true as far as our purpose in this life.

If our intention is to help each other, to love each other, to work with each other towards a more beautiful life, a more spiritual connection, then I believe we are on our path.

But if our intention is to be separate, to be unloving, to be unhelpful, to be selfish, then I feel it will be more difficult to find our true spiritual connection to the all that is, because we aren't being part of it, we are separating ourselves from the all.

I do my best to live harmlessly, to love each and everyone, but I am far from perfect.

I still have reactions to things people say, I still have doubts about my own spiritual path, I have eaten cooked foods while striving to stay raw, I am not perfect, but hopefully I am learning, and as I learn I teach, I believe we all do.

For every lesson there are two learners, the teacher and the student.

may all of our lessons be beautiful and enlightening.

[rawpriestess]

codajess, I know it can be difficult to read things on a board like this and truly understand the nuances of each individual post.


sometimes they come across as judgemental, when actually they are simply trying to inform a new person, that this site isn't meant to be for discussing whether or not raw is right for you, or if adding more cooked into your diet is okay, or what ever question a person might have.

We as moderators are supposed to moderate this board, we are to do our best to keep it on track with Alissa's mission statement, we aren't here to judge, or to defend, or to point fingers or accuse, we are here to do our best with our own information, knowlege and beliefs to help anyone, to be able to go 100% raw and stay there.

You wouldn't believe all the thousands of questions we've heard that have nothing to do with the raw lifestyle, and how many questions about protein we've heard and have to answe for the 1000th time, but we do it because w love what we do.

We are committed to being 100% raw 100% of the time, and yes, we are human too, so we aren't perfect (yet) LOL, but we are trying, and doing our very best at any given moment in time, and if we are truly lucky, we might actually be helping ourselves be and stay raw by helping others.

This is why I am here. It helps me to stay 100% raw 100% of the time.

I could so easily go off raw, and eat all kinds of cooked vegan foods, I could so easily just do that, but by being a moderator here, and by posting, I really feel I must walk my talk, so It keeps me where I am, and right now, today that is 100% raw 100% of the time, for 67 days now. YIPPEE!!

so, please know that no one is perfect, least of all us mods, although we do our best to be, and no one is every going to be perfect either.

We are ALL here to learn and to teach.

When we tell someone this is a raw vegan sight, it isn't to stop them from asking questions, on the contrary, it is to help them to ask the questions that we can answer that pertain to this sight.

[rawpriestess]

Hi, this has been brought up in a couple of threads lately, so I thought I would make an editorial (LOL, isn't that what I ALWAYS do?) LOL about it.

I see so many rigid ideas, strict thought patterns and belief structures, and I'm not pointing fingers here, I'm talking about MYSELF. LOL

I used to believe that eating meat was the only way to eat and to lose weight, that is how I was brought up, I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe that God was outside of me, watching my every move, and that I was going to burn in hell, because I wasn't perfect. I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe that I could eat just a little cooked food, and that food addiction was a cop out, I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe that I didn't need to take suppliments, or probiotics or enzymes and I would be fine, I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe that honey was the best thing to wash my hair and body with, I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe that if you help people they will appreciate it, I have changed that thinking.

I used to believe alot of things, I believe differently now, does that make me a hypocrite? or have I evolved, learning new things, and making new choices.

You see we learn from so many different sources, we have parents, teachers, friends, news media, and people on the street.

I've received some of my most profound learnings, while not even realizing it.

Sometimes I need to hear something a gazillion times to "get it" other times, I need to only experience it once, and I "get it" and then, there are times, I think I will NEVER "get it" and so I keep doing what I am doing.

so, please understand, that something I posted last night, or last week, or last lifetime isn't necessarily the same way I feel today, or this minute or next lifetime.

I, along with every being am learning at my own pace, and hopefully, I will learn fast, as it isn't always pleasant. LOL

And we ALL learn, it is inevitable.

what we learn, how fast we learn, how lovinginly we learn, this is all up to us, each individual, but learn we will.

[Rawkinlocs]

Thank you Rawfoodiemom, Sharon and RP for your insights and responses!

I have one other thing that I was pondering just a moment ago while reading the responses here.

WARNING...(somewhat) ADULT CONTENT AHEAD!!
====================================



Okay, I was wondering, (and I realize and totally agree with RP's mention of Intention vs. Attention) is a woman who by ALL other standards is considered vegan (no animal products in her food, personal bodycare/household products, etc.) still a vegan if her (male) partner (spouse or boyfriend) is NOT a vegan and eats meat, etc. and she receives his semen into her body? Just curious as to whether or not she is still considered a vegan if she allows a man to ejaculate into her body although HE eats animals and has animal protein running through his blood. Not trying to start anything, just a question that I thought of this morning while reading and pondering on this whole issue. Or do TRULY vegan women only date/marry TRULY vegan men?

[Spectatrix]

I'm sorry, but since honey is the only thing I consume that has anything to do with animals (and bees aren't really "animals" are they? They're insects, but I digress)
An animal is any creature whose species is classified under the kingdom "Animalia" (as opposed to Plantae, Fungi, Protista). Now, bees are not vertebrates -- that is, they are invertebrates and have an exoskeleton rather than a spinal cord and bones -- so perhaps that's what you were thinking of. Mammals, birds, amphibians, reptiles, and fish are vertebrates; all other animals are invertebrates.

[rawpriestess]

Rawkie, about the semen question.


Humm, first let me say, great question. I would have to say that I think that she is still a vegan.

Now, it may be because my hubby occasionally eats meat, so I have a vested interest in my answer here. LOL

But I also have to state that she is not consuming it, or using it directly, it is coming to her in an indirect way, through another being.

I may change my mind tomorrow, but today, this is how I believe .

[rawpriestess]

I believe that bees and insects are animals, in the therm of animal vegetable and mineral per se'.

I believe that they have a wonderful purpose on this life (still trying to figure out the mosquito's purpose. LOL) and that they are beautiful creatures.

this is why I chose not to use honey any more as a product, I feel if I alone don't use honey anymore, I will be not using about 60,000 gallons in my lifetime, as If I don't use it and have it around, then Dragggon doesn't use it, and if we don't use it, then alot of people who take our classes won't be using it either, so we will be impacting thousands of people over the next years of our life.

[Rawkinlocs]

Rawkie, about the semen question.


Humm, first let me say, great question. I would have to say that I think that she is still a vegan.

Now, it may be because my hubby occasionally eats meat, so I have a vested interest in my answer here. LOL

But I also have to state that she is not consuming it, or using it directly, it is coming to her in an indirect way, through another being.

I may change my mind tomorrow, but today, this is how I believe .

LOL! I know RP, I know :D

Yeah, I was just wondering because on another board I was on, there was a discussion a while back and some of the women were VERY adament that they would NOT allow a non-vegan man to have intimate contact with them...they were also very spiritual (not religious...spiritual) and felt that by taking in that man's meat-ladened semen was to also take in the spirit of the animals he consumed. So, I thought I'd pose that question here to see where some of the vegan women stood on that issue. I don't agree or disagree one way or the other...I'd say too that she was still vegan, but ya never know!

[Mookie]

This is my opinion for all it is worth-


There are differnet types of vegetarians and different types of raw foodist.

Raw Foodist- may eat raw eggs, raw meat, raw fish and raw dairy

Raw Vegetarian - consumes all raw foods and eats raw honey- no meat, fish, eggs or dairy

Raw Vegan - consumes all raw foods and does not eat honey or any animal products

<<Total Vegetarians eat only plant food. They do not eat any animal foods, including fish, eggs, dairy products, and honey.
Vegans not only omit all animal products from their diets, but they also eliminate them from the rest of their life. Vegans use nothing from animals, such as leather, wool, and silk.
Lacto-Vegetarians will include dairy products into their diet of plant food.
Lacto-Ovo-Vegetarians eat both eggs and dairy products. >>

[ShantiDass]

I'm too lazy to look it up right now but I read in a vegan magazine that the man who coined the term "vegan" stated it includes not using honey. I can't remember the stats but a bee works it's entire life to make about a half (or a quarter?) teaspoon of honey. It seems like an awful lot of work for one little bee to do so I can add it to my tea.

The only reason I don't appreciate when people say they are vegan and they use honey is because the rest of the world becomes more confused than they already are. I ordered a vegan rootbeer float at a restaurant a few weeks ago and the rootbeer contained honey. (I'm starting raw foods in 2 days)They were quite upset when I sent it back because they said other "vegans" drink it and I explained that either the others didn't see honey on the label or they really aren't vegan. I recently got that restaurant to say on the menu that they presweeten some of their teas with honey because otherwise it's false advertising to say something is vegan when it's not.

I do wish restaurants had to label their foods legally. It would make it so much easier. I still get upset when I see Vegetarian options in restaurants that are loaded with cheese that contain rennet. That is not vegetarian. I believe in letting people make their own choices and if they want to use rennet cheese or honey, go for it. But, I would like to be able to purchase something and know it is what it truly says.

One of the reasons I have waited so long to go raw is because I had bought the book "Raw" when it first came out and had read it was raw vegan and the book contained a lot of recipes with honey. At the time, I couldn't find information and recipes that didn't contain honey so I didn't go raw. I didn't know about agave until recently.

[swingbolder]

Unfortunately for the strict, ethical vegans, the terms "vegan" has been coopted by the larger community to mean a vegetarian who doesn't eat any animal products, except maybe honey. I know a lot of people who call themselves vegans who use this definition. . . it's not the "original meaning" of the term, but language has a way of morphing like that. Which greatly annoys the purists.

[NFrawRUNNER]

Can I just say "WOW!" Sometimes ignorance is bliss...I have been eating "raw honey" all along, never thought much about it....until now!!!! Does that make me less worthy of considering myself "raw"? I think not....I use it out of convenience.....I don't have agave nectar and can't always justify buying something JUST FOR ME in this family of 7.....So, without having an identity crisis, I'll just call myself high raw and hope for the best ;) and like someone else mentioned, bees aren't really ANIMALS, they're INSECTS! I guess my point is who cares! I think all of this within this forum do our best to eat within our belief system regardless of a silly label so I say kudos to all of us!

[RawFoodieMom]

Some very interesting responses. And I really appreciate everyone's feelings on this. I'm going to think about what all of you have said. That is a lot of work for one little bee! :(

Like RP, I am slowly evolving, I may change my mind tomorrow... :p

I wish Agave wasn't so expensive...

Debra

[Mookie]

I do wish restaurants had to label their foods legally. It would make it so much easier. I still get upset when I see Vegetarian options in restaurants that are loaded with cheese that contain rennet. That is not vegetarian. I believe in letting people make their own choices and if they want to use rennet cheese or honey, go for it. But, I would like to be able to purchase something and know it is what it truly says.




Wow... I did not know ome cheeses contained rennet--
Are there specific cheeses- I just want to know for my own personal knowledge.

Thanks

[Spectatrix]

and like someone else mentioned, bees aren't really ANIMALS, they're INSECTS!
... I hate to harp on this, but how do you define "animal"? I'm not vegan, but I do definitely consider insects and other invertebrates to be animals...

[Spectatrix]

Wow... I did not know ome cheeses contained rennet--
Are there specific cheeses- I just want to know for my own personal knowledge.

Thanks
I think all hard cheeses contain rennet, but there are vegetarian sources of rennet and rennet substitutes.

[NFrawRUNNER]

Sorry about the insect/ animal confusion....guess all are God's creatures, but without getting off track or technical I've just always thought of insects differently than other animals...........just...because.....I don't really know! Hope I did not offend anyone! ;)

[Spectatrix]

Haha, no offense taken. I tend to regard insects differently from mammals, at least. ;)

[codajess]

Can I just say "WOW!" Sometimes ignorance is bliss...I have been eating "raw honey" all along, never thought much about it....until now!!!! Does that make me less worthy of considering myself "raw"? I think not....I use it out of convenience.....I don't have agave nectar and can't always justify buying something JUST FOR ME in this family of 7.....So, without having an identity crisis, I'll just call myself high raw and hope for the best ;) and like someone else mentioned, bees aren't really ANIMALS, they're INSECTS! I guess my point is who cares! I think all of this within this forum do our best to eat within our belief system regardless of a silly label so I say kudos to all of us!


Raw honey IS raw. It's not vegan. Thats the point of this whole thread.

[codajess]

I'm sorry, but since honey is the only thing I consume that has anything to do with animals (and bees aren't really "animals" are they? They're insects, but I digress) I don't see myself stopping from calling myself vegan, and if you have to label me then maybe there should be another label you should call me. I don't see myself describing my food consumption by saying:

"I'm a raw foodist. I'm not vegan, but I don't eat meat, poultry, fish, eggs, milk, cheese, or any other type of meat or dairy product, with the exception of honey."

Ummm... a bit long. I think that one thing that needs to be realized is that not everyone has chosen to stop eating animal products for the same reason. A lot of us here used to be meat eaters, and have chosen to make a change for HEALTH reasons. I think that's really where all this controversy is stemming from.

I respect your choices.

Debra
You can call yourself whatever you want, but if you consume honey, or have any animal products in what you eat/wear, you aren't vegan.

Maybe you missed the whole point earlier. Vegan is not an eating style. It's a lifestyle. If you're doing it for health reasons, and not ethical reasons, so all you do is avoid eating certain animals foods for health reasons, you are a strict vegetarian. I repeat, vegan is a LIFESTYLE, not a dietary habit.

Saying you are vegan and then consuming honey is what's getting other vegans (who really ARE vegan) served honey because "I know a vegan who eats it." Just like calling yourself vegetarian but eating fish is getting real vegetarians served fish because "I know a vegetarian and he eats fish."
THAT is why people get so testy about it.

And whether you think bees are insects or animals, the point is that the word "animal" is referring to LIVING BEINGS. Bees are LIVING BEINGS. A vegan would not take a product from a LIVING, BREATHING being.

[PDMagnusen]

The sperm “vegan” topic is very interesting. I feel that you are still a vegan, but I do believe there are side effects of receiving sperm in general.

I actually just finished John Robbins' book ,"Diet for a New America", and he mentions how the male reproductive tract transmits chemicals to a female. For those of you who have not read the book, he focuses primarily on educating people on the connection between the environment and health - which includes the effects of eating meat, eggs and dairy, as well as, our exposure to toxic chemicals in the environment.

FYI…here’s a cut and paste of some of what he says:
"Men who think they may someday wish to father a child would do well to realize that the toxic chemicals they ingest today, including those especially damaging to sperm cells, tend to collect and concentrate in the male reproductive tract. The result is that a very high number of birth defects stem from the male's absorption of these chemicals. This is why the offspring of Vietnam veterans who were involved with Agent Orange have such a high rate of birth defects; and why a University of Southern California Medical School Study found distinct correlations between brain tumors in children and their father's exposure to toxic chemicals.

Even if a man does not father a child, he should be concerned. His sperm will still collect these chemicals. And, during intercourse, they will be transmitted to the female. She will absorb them through her vaginal mucosa, and then store them in her womb, like the worst kind of biological time bomb, waiting to cause birth defects and cancer.
Fortunately, wise food choices today can do a great deal to protect the health of the as-yet unborn."

[codajess]

Very interesting, and makes sense to me!

[jenna rose]

Well, the way I see it....even those who call themselves vegan aren't -really- vegan.

We all drive/ride in cars/bikes/busses/etc, use lots of products that contain some trace amount of animal. we step, unintentionally, on bugs.

I may not be vegan to lots of people because I do occasionally use raw honey from a local organic bee keeper and i do ride in cars, shop in places that sell animal products (food and leather, etc) and on and on.

And labels can be a very good thing. I don't tell people I'm vegan so that it seperates me from them. I do it because it's a big part of who I am and I want people to know it's a positive thing and not some 'crazy PETA phase". :rolleyes:

But the way I see it, I'm as vegan as possible...as vegan as this day and age and my finances will allow and that's more than good enough for me.

But, yes, honey is NOT vegan because it IS from an animal. So, I don't know... hm.

[juliebove]

Since I am allergic to both dairy and eggs, I have no choice but to be vegan.

[swingbolder]

Well, the way I see it....even those who call themselves vegan aren't -really- vegan.

We all drive/ride in cars/bikes/busses/etc, use lots of products that contain some trace amount of animal. we step, unintentionally, on bugs.


Exactly. Rubber is processed with animal by-products. So if you use a vehicle with rubber tires, you aren't really vegan. And you shouldn't be pointing fingers at people who eat honey!

It's hard to live in a slaughterhouse and not get splashed with blood from time to time.

[Sharon in Colorado]

...they were also very spiritual (not religious...spiritual) and felt that by taking in that man's meat-ladened semen was to also take in the spirit of the animals he consumed.


If they believe an animal has a spirit then shouldn't they assume once it's earthly body has been destroyed it eventually goes back to the earth while the spirit goes to the afterlife? Unless they believe in reincarnation in that case the spirit of the animal may one day be somebody's Uncle Seymor.

They could also look at how they were conceived - did their mother and/or father eat animals or animal products - then with their belief they already have an animal spirit in them.

[RawFoodieMom]

Exactly. Rubber is processed with animal by-products. So if you use a vehicle with rubber tires, you aren't really vegan. And you shouldn't be pointing fingers at people who eat honey!

It's hard to live in a slaughterhouse and not get splashed with blood from time to time.

Good point, swingbolder, thank you for pointing that out. I didn't even know that rubber is processed with animal by-products. I'm a recovering cooked food addict. I grew up on meat and potatoes. So I'm new to learning all this and the more I learn, the more I want to stay from meat products for various reasons.

codajess, I will be the first one to admit that I just don't have the knowledge yet as to what products have animal products in them, etc. I won't go where you went and call you names as you did me. But I think swingbolder makes a very good point, and if what you say is true that being vegan is a lifestyle and people who are truly vegan don't use any products that use any type of animal by-product to be processed, then I guess all true vegans don't drive?? I think the term vegan is less strict than you may think. But it's okay, I don't mind not calling myself a vegan if it will make you feel better. I'm not transitioning myself to raw foods for a label!

Debra

[Svadhyaya]

My veganism is about doing what is possible without having to step out of the world entirely. If there were vegan tires, I'd buy them, but since there aren't any, I use regular ones, keep my milage down and maintenance up so they last as long as possible.

Honey, however, can usually be substituted easily with agave nectar (maple syrup, rice syrup, etc. if you aren't raw. My family eats honey (and some dairy and eggs too) and I don't bug out if I run out of agave and need to use honey in a pinch. I'm not militant about it.

That's just me....I certainly don't judge whatever other people do.
I rarely use the word vegan in real life, honestly, I just say "I try to stay away from things made from animals" and let that be the end of it.

Alot of people associate vegans with PETA, and I don't want it assumed that I support them. Personally, I think they do some good, but also much harm to the animal welfare/rights movement. All in all - they could do better, in my opinion.

[codajess]

I didn't call you names.
You were purposely being sarcastic and trying to get a reaction when you said you wouldn't say "I'm a raw foodist. I'm not vegan, but I don't eat meat, poultry, fish, eggs, milk, cheese, or any other type of meat or dairy product, with the exception of honey." Why wouldn't you just say "i'm a raw foodist?"

I'm simply saying if you knowingly choose to eat or use honey, you are not vegan. Period.

If people are going to bring up the whole "rubber/film/this/that/the other" argument, thats when they realize they really don't have an argument to begin with.

As I stated previously, it's all about choices. For some people, cars are a necessity, they do the best they can. They choose fabric instead of leather seats. With tires, there are no choices. It's all about causing the least amount of harm. Eating/using honey is a choice. There are comparable consumable items that are equal. If you choose to eat honey and you really want a label, then fine. Use Strict Vegetarian or raw foodist. You are not vegan.

If a vegan goes to a restaurant and gets food that is advertised as vegan, but then afterwards finds out there was whey as one of the ingredients, it doesn't make them any less vegan. They did their best, they chose the so-called vegan food. They did not knowingly choose a non-vegan food, while still calling themselves vegan. Put two belts in front of them, a man made belt, and a leather belt. The vegan is going to pick the manmade one. They are not going to knowingly pick the leather. It is about CHOICES, and making the choice that causes the least amount of harm.

As I said, if you're going to start bringing up the rubber-type issues, thats when you're standing on your last debate leg, and you know it. Don't argue just to argue.

The entire point of this thread was to ask why some people are calling this a raw-vegan diet when it is not. It is raw, yes. This forum is about raw-foodism, yes. There are people who choose not to use honey, and yes, they are raw-vegan. If animal products are used, it is no longer vegan.

For a forum that is about education and learning, I simply don't understand why people who didn't know better and now do can't say "Oh, you know what? You're right." learn from your mistakes or miseducation and stop doing it. There are things people do without thinking about it. Eating honey could be one of them. Once they realize "oh, wow, thats NOT vegan" why cant they either stop eating the honey if they want to keep the label, or else stop calling themselves vegan, and just consider themselves raw.

As I also said before, you can be a raw foodist and not eat everything that is technically raw (raw meat, raw dairy, raw honey.) Just because you are raw doesn't mean you have to include every raw edible thing under the sun. I was vegetarian. If someone offered me eggplant (or squash. or zucchini), I would decline. Being vegetarian does not mean I ate everything that wasn't once alive and breathing. Raw is the same way.

[codajess]

Exactly. Rubber is processed with animal by-products. So if you use a vehicle with rubber tires, you aren't really vegan. And you shouldn't be pointing fingers at people who eat honey!

It's hard to live in a slaughterhouse and not get splashed with blood from time to time.

Keeping with the theme here, getting splashed with blood while walking by minding your own business is a whole lot different than being the one slicing the throat.

[codajess]

I don't mind not calling myself a vegan if it will make you feel better. I'm not transitioning myself to raw foods for a label!
Debra

That's what I don't get. Why can't you just be considered a "raw foodist?" Why does the label have to be "raw vegan?"

[RawFoodieMom]

I didn't call you names.
You were purposely being sarcastic and trying to get a reaction when you said you wouldn't say "i'm not vegan, I just dont eat..."

Yes, I was being sarcastic, but that's not what you said. You said I was being "obnoxious" which was harsh, if you ask me.


I'm simply saying if you knowingly choose to eat or use honey, you are not vegan. Period.

I don't want to be considered vegan anyway, if it's going to be like this. :rolleyes:

It just doesn't make sense to me to say a person is vegan if they use products processed with animal by-products if it's a "necessity" (like the car tires) and they decide there's "no other alternative", that's a very confused line to be drawn, with a ton of variables that can be interpreted differently from one "vegan" to the next.

[Rawkinlocs]

Okay, okay...this thread is obviously becoming more than what the original post intended (then again, maybe not...hmmm) and we do kinda pride ourselves on being a "DRAMA-FREE BOARD"

But at any rate, I think it best to now close it. Points have been given and taken...we all agree that honey isn't vegan and it's been indicated that while the theme of this site may "technically" be raw vegetarian or what have you, we STILL do not advocate the eating of meat, dairy or eggs.

So, everybody say "good night" to this thread!