how many take b12 supplements?

[fruit]

I was just wondering how many ppl take supplements for b12?
How long before ones body becomes deficient?
or is there enough b12 in the foods we eat?

[firefaery]

I know my opinion here isn't popular...but since you asked.

Anyone can be deficient-omnis as well as vegans. It depends on how well you are absorbing B-12. It can be checked by a plasma test (a standard blood test is faulty.) I was deficient as an omni, and so I do continue to take a supplement. It is found in plant foods, but there is debate as to whether or not it is usable. Some great sources say it is. I personally believe that everyone is different and the only way to responsibly monitor yourself is to test and know where you stand. If you have plenty-don't worry about supplementation. If you don't, think about it.

I supplement. B-12 deficiency isnt' something I want to mess with again. Often times by the time you catch it, the damage (generally neurological) is irreversible. Just know your body and where you stand. With nutrition, we have enough technology to not have to live in fear. When I am absorbing nutrients better, I hope to back off on the supplement. But there's no reason (IMO) to gamble on this issue when you can easily get answers that are not just abstract studies, but a clear reading of your body.

[sport]

It was my intention to supplement and I do have them, but have forgotton to take them for months. This has reminded me. I am now saying has my body deliberatly allowed me to forget. I see no harm in taking them just in case.

[chilove]

I don't supplement and I don't worry about it all.

Audrey

[marigold]

yeah i do..i know gabrielle cousens really plugs this one - as do many of the "top raw food talkers" i was listening to the fresh festival (uk) lectures on cd and most people were really urging people to take note...

[Shivananda]

I was just wondering how many ppl take supplements for b12?
This is one I feel is just not worth taking chances on, because I've had 2 good long term vegan friends go seriously B12 deficient, and one has suffered permanent nerve damage as a result, and the other had to get B12 injections on a regualr basis over a long time to restore natural energy.

So I use Red Star Vegetarian Nutritional Yeast in my unCooking, as well as a periodic boost from a high value sublingual supplement.

And I make sure I am checked for B12 level whenever having blood analysis done.

heres a link to an FAQ on this issue from Physicians for Social Responsibility:
http://www.pcrm.org/health/veginfo/b12.html

[Gosia]

None. :)

“There is no such thing as a deficiency of vitamin B12, even in 100% raw vegans. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.”
(Dr Vetrano, read this recent, comprehensive article on B12 at http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html )

All you need to know about B12:
http://www.rawgosia.com/articles/sevenpoints.html


Gosia.

[Shivananda]

“There is no such thing as a deficiency of vitamin B12, even in 100% raw vegans. Unfortunately, I find this to be just awful, wishful thinking at its very worst. Vitamin B12 deficiency is not only a scientifically proven fact, but it is an issue of special import to vegans, because the vitamin B12 produced by bacteria in the lower digestive tract body is not absorbed by the body at all, but is merely excreted, unused. We MUST ingest the B12 our body needs to be healthy, one way or another.

And I repeat, I have two very, very close, intimate friends, both longtime vegans who are currently dealing with this very issue, and one has permanent, irreversible nerve damage as a result. She's the one I really wanted to marry when I lived in the Northwest. She's stunningly beautiful, awesomely talented, and totally messed up forever by long term "healthy" eating choices that simply did not provide for her B12 needs.

The other one? Well, she's stunningly beautiful, is way smarter than me, was my original raw food "guru," and has had to get a whole series of B12 shots to try and correct the deficiency that was draining her of energy. With any luck, I may still get to marry her.

So this subject hits very close to home. It's not some vague theory by some far off writer, to me. It directly touches my intimate life. Please don't quote quackery to me when I know better from personal experience. B12 deficiency is real, and it is very serious business.

Physicians Committe for Responsible Medicine, perhaps the foremost organization of Western MDs who advocate FOR a vegan diet, have numerous warnings about Vitamin B12 deficiency on their very, very informative website. I suggest you start there in deciding for yourself whether the risk of ignoring this issue is worth it to you. To me it is not.

www.pcrm.org

[Gosia]

Shivananda, of course I disagree with all that you said, and I could easily dispute every argument listed, starting from the very obvious fact that there is not scientific proof of B12 deficiency (and this is coming from a scientist who has thoroughly researched the existing literature on B12). Nevertheless, I do not come here to argue, and am not interested in starting/continuing a never-ending discussion on the topic.

To those interested in learning the arguments that I am not listing here due to the space limitations, these are easily accessible on the links that I listed (if you are prepared to take the time :) ).

Gosia.

[RawTruth]

Fruit --

Go to the Want to know more about raw? section on this forum's Home page.

Alissa posted three -- count 'em -- three statements/threads about B12 there for beginning and questioning raw fooders.

I would post the links here, but I figure you're definitely clever enough to find it yourself!! :D

I personally pop a sublingual B12 every 4 to 6 months. Or ... hmmmm ... that was my intention, but I can't remember the last time. Ha ha!! Well, I used to do this.

I was a vegetarian/vegan for over 20 yrs before going raw, and I was careful about this. I DO NOT think that being raw vegan is the same as being cooked vegan. (I am NOT interested in debating or defending my opinion, which I am entitled to, here.)

[fruit]

Thanks everybody for your replies
I will go search that right now rawtruth.

[firefaery]

We had B-12 deficiencies, but we also had severely damaged guts. Very severely damaged. We weren't absorbing anything. So-I guess that fits. I also think there's a difference between raw and cooked, but we haven't gotten healed enough or far enough on the raw path to figure that out.

FWIW, I will still test to see what my body needs-as everyone is very different.

[rawfigure]

I use spirulina supposedly A teaspoon of Spirulina supplies 2 1/2 times the Recommended Daily Allowance of vitamin B12.

[Shivananda]

I use spirulina supposedly A teaspoon of Spirulina supplies 2 1/2 times the Recommended Daily Allowance of vitamin B12. Maybe, maybe not.

I think this fact sheet from the venerable Vegetarian Society of the UK is pretty well balanced on the topic... it's not not extreme in any direction.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

[karenisraw]

I use a multi vitamin and mineral suppliment which takes care of my RDA allowance of B-12, which was according to my very detailed entries on Fitday.com said I was at ZERO consumption.

First of all, my raw vegan doctor who is not only an M.D. but a nutritional scientist and holistic practioner in addition to owning a raw vegan restaraunt and raw beauty spa as well as being the president Emeritus of the University of Natural Medicine in Sante Fe New Mexico, (whew) says to MAKE sure you are getting enough Vitamin D and Vitamin B-12 if on a raw vegan diet as many people (not only raw vegans) are deficient in those. He highly supports the use of tests and supplimentation. He also sells vitamins and minerals in his shop. The highest quality. He believes that some people do have deficiencies and raw vegans sometimes have deficiencies that they have to take suppliments for if they are not able to with food.

I did not know about the spirulina, but after writing this I am going to google it to see what it is all about.

Personally, I don't want to mess with my body and take any chances so I am going to suppliment all I need to. Also, with the demineralization of soil, I don't trust that all our fruits and veggies are completely chock full of what they say on the typical quides to the nutritonal values of these things.

I would say to make sure you are getting what you need, even if it means not being as "pure" a raw vegan as some people feel they need to be.

k

[Arky]

I see this one as an exceedingly simple issue - there is no convincing argument against B12 supplementation, yet there are considerable grounds for concern that B12 deficiency may be a potential occurrence in a vegan diet. I don't dispute that the jury is still out on this one (due, in no small part, to the difficulties of accurately measuring B12 serum levels with current technology), but there is, on balance, far more good reason to play it 'safe' than to play it 'riskily' (and before anyone opts to attack me, please note that I use the term relatively).

Do I run any risk, however small, of peripheral neuropathy as a consequence of taking a B12 supplement? NO

Do I run any risk, however small, of peripheral neuropathy as a consequence of NOT taking a B12 supplement? Well, maybe.

Who cares if there is no absolute proof - I'll play it safe since there is considerably less risk in taking that option.

Simple. Not rocket science...

To be frank, I believe this has as much to do with ideology, on the part of the non-supplementers, as it does to do with the present state of play, evidence-wise. The vegan ideology is wonderful and admirable from a philosophical perspective, however, there are, like it or not, potential pitfalls with the vegan diet, and these are hard to acknowledge within the framework of such a pure, idealistic, philosophy, so many choose not to allow any 'impurities' to impinge upon their vegan philosophy, because acknowledging that the philosophy just might be imperfect on a practical level, is too much for them to handle. If it comes to choosing between purity of philosophy or peripheral neuropathy, I'm afraid the latter gets my attention first and foremost, much though I admire the commitment of 'purist' vegans.


J.

[fruit]

Thanks again for all the replies........
Does anyone know how long it takes for the body to become deficient?
I know when i was pregnant with my son i was on a sad mainly fastfood and i was severe anemic.At the time i was still in my teens and payed no attention to it,Not really knowing how dangerous it could really be.I at absolutly no produce,I look back now and think how i wish i would have known how bad that was.My son was a premature baby and now has asthma,I wonder if things could have been different had i tooken better care of myself and my baby growing inside me.

[firefaery]

That's a tough question that really can't be answered. IT depends on your stores before going vegan, your absorption and your diet. Beware of answers that are just blanket statements like: 3 years. That doesn't take YOU into account.

I'm sorry your son had such difficulties and I'm proud of you for asking the tough questions. What we do in pregnancy (and before) does affect our kids much more than anyone realizes. My kids were both affected by my poor health. But, knowing better, I'm doing better!

[Gosia]

"Does anyone know how long it takes for the body to become deficient?"

Assuming what? That you eat cooked food, eat meat, eat junk food, take drugs, stress out about anything you can and have terrible digestion? Or, that you eat raw vegan foods, exercise, have positive outlook on life and your digestion is great? (Note that veganism per se does not cause any deficiences. :) )

Gosia.

[karenisraw]

Rawfigure,

I went and googled spirulina as I had read your post and was excited about the possiblity of b-12 in plant foods. Here is what one article said about b-12 that you may not be aware of:

Vitamin B12

Vitamin B12 is a member of the vitamin B complex. It contains cobalt, and so is also known as cobalamin. It is exclusively synthesised by bacteria and is found primarily in meat, eggs and dairy products. There has been considerable research into proposed plant sources of vitamin B12. Fermented soya products, seaweeds, and algae such as spirulina have all been suggested as containing significant B12. However, the present consensus is that any B12 present in plant foods is likely to be unavailable to humans and so these foods should not be relied upon as safe sources. Many vegan foods are supplemented with B12. Vitamin B12 is necessary for the synthesis of red blood cells, the maintenance of the nervous system, and growth and development in children. Deficiency can cause anaemia. Vitamin B12 neuropathy, involving the degeneration of nerve fibres and irreversible neurological damage, can also occur.

I will be back with the link to this article which explains much more about B-12.

Here is the link to the rest of the article.

http://www.vegsoc.org/info/b12.html

k

[fiddler]

I see this one as an exceedingly simple issue - there is no convincing argument against B12 supplementation, yet there are considerable grounds for concern that B12 deficiency may be a potential occurrence in a vegan diet. I don't dispute that the jury is still out on this one (due, in no small part, to the difficulties of accurately measuring B12 serum levels with current technology), but there is, on balance, far more good reason to play it 'safe' than to play it 'riskily' (and before anyone opts to attack me, please note that I use the term relatively).

Do I run any risk, however small, of peripheral neuropathy as a consequence of taking a B12 supplement? NO

Do I run any risk, however small, of peripheral neuropathy as a consequence of NOT taking a B12 supplement? Well, maybe.

Who cares if there is no absolute proof - I'll play it safe since there is considerably less risk in taking that option.

Simple. Not rocket science...

To be frank, I believe this has as much to do with ideology, on the part of the non-supplementers, as it does to do with the present state of play, evidence-wise. The vegan ideology is wonderful and admirable from a philosophical perspective, however, there are, like it or not, potential pitfalls with the vegan diet, and these are hard to acknowledge within the framework of such a pure, idealistic, philosophy, so many choose not to allow any 'impurities' to impinge upon their vegan philosophy, because acknowledging that the philosophy just might be imperfect on a practical level, is too much for them to handle. If it comes to choosing between purity of philosophy or peripheral neuropathy, I'm afraid the latter gets my attention first and foremost, much though I admire the commitment of 'purist' vegans.
J. Arky, I like the way you think! [Sam Kinnison in "Back to School"]

Can you recommend some articles supporting this position? I'm interested in reading them since I pop a B12 pill now and then.

[karenisraw]

Gosia,

I found this in the article that I posted a link to above.

"The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining."

You may want to look somemore into the B-12 issue.

k
:)

[karenisraw]

Arky,

I have discovered that until I brilliantly discover all there is to know about nutrition and science, that I had better be safe than sorry.

I too had the vision of eating berries off of vines, lapping up cool spring water from a fountain filled pond, and cracking nuts with a rock in a flower filled forest, however, I had to wake up from my wonderful dream and drive to the NHF store and find what was available and inexpensive. I believe that there may be plant sources of B-12 out there and maybe not. I just have not found them yet. Until then I will have dreams of plucking b-12 suppliment off of lush bushes in the meadow.

k

[Gosia]

Karenisraw, I am well familiar with this argument (as I said, I have researched the literature carefully) as well as with the counter arguments. There isn't anything published that proves veganism per se causes deficiences, nor do I expect anything like that to be ever published.

In contrary, I believe that becoming raw vegan is that best thing one can do for one's health.

Do not feel the need to convince me. I have already chewed through all the arguments, digested them and spat them out! :)

Gosia.


PS Great points on the related topic: http://www.rawschool.com/nutrientdeficiency.htm

[RawTruth]

Again --

I strongly suggest you read the three threads Alissa posted here on this forum.

Funny how some will search alll over the place but ignore information that our host believes relevant enough to raw veganism to put right here where we can read it.

[*SunChild*]

I pop a chewable once or twice a week, knowing that I'm getting some keeps me at ease.

I'm not a fan of supplements, I do drink vital greens (all raw, dried and powdered greens & algae)...and just a bit of b12 occasionally.

Blessings~ Shivananda, I enjoyed all that you wrote.

[karenisraw]

Here is an article that I found in a thread here on RFT posted by Alissa.

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3244&highlight=b-12

k

[firefaery]

When people post questions like this I assume they have done the research and are looking for people to speak up about how to apply it. I have read Alissa's links, but they don't apply to me. Not much that has been written really does because it doen't address pre-existing conditions like malabsorption, lack of ability to convert and other kinds of intestinal damage. I can listen happily to the theories, and then make sure that I'm being responsible and safe. I take what I can, and make the appropriate adjusments.

[JMD]

I do take a multi -B daily. I do not over-supplement but FOR ME these help.

[rawnora]

I just wanted to say how much I admire your dedication to truth, Gosia. The belief system that has sprung up around raw veganism is extremely popular and entrenched, and it takes a very strong, discerning and independent mind to go against it. Thanks for being such an inspiration to me and others.
Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[Shivananda]

I don't mind folks being stubborn about what they see as the truth despite overwhelming evidence against it. Matter of fact, I've got some of those unprovable beliefs myself. Sometimes people call me a pioneer for it, or "ahead of my time." Sometimes people say I'm a trend setter. Sometimes people say I'm an idiot or deluded.

But one thing I have learned to understand and accept about my own often unpopular beliefs is that if my particular thought matrix is such that I don't believe in the existence of yellow tomatoes, say, and I think they are just a myth, and I publically say "There is no such thing as a yellow tomato," and then somebody shows up and hands me a genuine yellow tomato, it's probably a pretty good time to stop and reexamine my position.

And frankly, that has turned out to be the case most often in my own life whenever I have taken a totally black vs white position, and become blind to to the gray in the middle where so much that is true actually lives. If there is any rule that seems to universally apply to people it is that there IS NO RULE that universally applies to everyone.

What does Cousens say in that article Alissa quoted in the Index? (Thanks RawTruth for the reminder it was there) There are one million four hundred thousand genetic variations in our DNA. How could we possibly all be the same? So any statement that starts out with "everyone" or "no one" is practically doomed to failure. And part of what I appreciate about Ayurvedic medicine is that it begins with an appreciation of those inherent differences, and takes them into account both in diagnosis and in prescription.

So while some may get away just fine their whole lifetime without B12 supplementation... Cousens himself says he may be part of that small group... there are just as clearly others who cannot, and who suffer disease as a result. I have two of those "yellow tomatoes" in my own life, and others have posted here in this thread, so it seems ridiculous to me to keep saying their existence is a myth.

[heabrook]

** Please note I am not trying to say that you should not supplement your diet with B12 **

I do not believe in taking B12 every day. In my opinion, through research that I have done, it is not necessary to take B12 on an every day ongoing basis. It is estimated that we hold a three-year store of vitamin B12 in our bodies. Therefore, in my opinion, once a week or a few times a month is sufficient enough.

B12 is made by microorganisms found in the soil and by microorganisms in the intestines of animals (including us). But, the amount made in our intestines is not adequately absorbed, so it is not enough to live on.

Also, just to clarify, animal products are not the only source of B12. They are, however at this time, thought to be the only stable source of B12. That is because conventional food is not grown in healthy soil with enough B12 to supply the body (plus, most people clean the food rigorously before eating it). Organic food has more of a supply of B12, however it is impossible to judge how much B12 you are absorbing by eating organic since our produce comes from a variety of places.

My suggestions is to monitor your B12 levels by having a doctor check them. That is truly the best way to make sure you are getting enough B12. Whatever the result is, you can better judge what to do from there.

[Gosia]

Hi Nora, thanks! I am waving here!

It's true, I am a very determined person (my husband can confirm this :) ). I do not get convinced easily, or scared off by arguments that defy logic and my common sense. True, it takes a lot of determination to continue spread the truth, but I know that it's worth it!

There is a Polish saying, which very much relates to how I feel about all this, "The darkest spot is under the street lamp". What it means is that people often are unable to recognize simple truths, no matter how obvious they are.

I do understand that those beliefs that you mentioned, Nora, are the extension of the arms of the old cooked-food-tradition octopus, in which it is believed that one needs to supplement, occasionanlly see a doctor (who supposedly knows better than your body, and never eliminates the cause of disease anyway), take harmful vaccines allegedly to fight off diseases, and do everyting but change their lifestyle to the one that nature intended. So, I understand that the evolution that is currently taking place, thanks to raw foodism, will take some time. It is a gradual process. I believe that humans eventually will realize that their minds are not better than the nature, from which they can learn more than by reading fractured "scientific" (true science never defies the nature) articles.

Even though, or should I say, thanks to my highly analytical mind (since I was as little as 4, I was analyzing the world around me, reading scientific aritcles at the age of 8), I know that nature does not need to be proved to be right. Nature is right. It is humans who sometimes think that they know better.

Gosia.

[CorporalChicken]

< a newbie that has read the b12 stuff but has questions!

Hi folks. I believe that people should be vegan for supreme health, that anything less is asking for trouble.

Raw food I totally agree with as well, as it basically makes perfect sense!

Here lies my problem. I think humans were born to be vegan. I also think we were born to eat raw food... but if B12 is essential to the human body yet can only be found as an 'extra' in sources outside our natural fruit and veg then this pretty much screws up my idealogy ;-)

If meat and dairy had never existed as a diet and we'd all been vegans for centuries... where would we be getting our b12 from right now?

Thanks :)

[heabrook]

Here lies my problem. I think humans were born to be vegan. I also think we were born to eat raw food... but if B12 is essential to the human body yet can only be found as an 'extra' in sources outside our natural fruit and veg then this pretty much screws up my idealogy ;-)

If meat and dairy had never existed as a diet and we'd all been vegans for centuries... where would we be getting our b12 from right now?

Thanks :)

read my post above
I stated:

Also, just to clarify, animal products are not the only source of B12. They are, however at this time, thought to be the only stable source of B12. That is because conventional food is not grown in healthy soil with enough B12 to supply the body (plus, most people clean the food rigorously before eating it). Organic food has more of a supply of B12, however it is impossible to judge how much B12 you are absorbing by eating organic since our produce comes from a variety of places.

Our soil used to be very nutritious and therefore our vegetables would have adequate amounts of vitamins and minerals.

Another source of B12 is nutritional yeast (grown on molasses)

Studies are starting to show that some seaweeds have high levels of B12.

[Shivananda]

Hi CC,

There are actually several natural sources of B12 that may have been available to our ancestors that are not generally part of a modern diet... for... um... several reasons.

1) A number of animals eat their own feces, apparently for this very reason. But personally I've just never found the right dehydrator setting to get them to come out right, myself. :eek:

2) Root vegetables, if not cleaned of all their dirt, can be a significant source. Especially if the vegetables have been fertilized with human waste. Care for some beet chips? :D

3) Insects infesting the food are an often unsuspected source of B12 in primitive cultures that disappear when modern sanitation standards are applied. Some researchers believe this factor is behind the widely reported problem of B12 deficiencies that arise when Indian vegetarians emigrate to western cultures like London, and keep eating the exact same food, but start getting sick.

4) Fungi and natural yeast growth are another possible source, including rotten fruit and vegetables.

5) Seaweed and algae are another possible source. Like a pondscum smoothie? :p

In any case, theory aside, it's not hard to find a way today to get what you need. And you do need it. That's exactly why it is called a vitamin, because it is a nutrient that you only need in very small quantities, but which will cause disease if it is missing or deficient.

[CorporalChicken]

Ahhhhhhhhhm thanks heabrook and shivanda!

Sorry if I was re-asking anything anyone had said... I read very fast and sometimes only bits sink in! I was kind of proposing the idea of how we would live in a vegan world without supplements and fortified foods :-) Of course, if we lived in a vegan world, I like to think I wouldn't be living near a capital city choked to the ceiling with fumes where organic veg is considered a luxury item!

LOL @ the poo dehydrator and beet chips! You know, I don't think I'd have a problem with human poo as long as it definitely wasn't full of rotting semi-digested meat and chemicals!

Does this mean that a lifetime of animal cruelty and ecological damage means that some of us are forced to take supplements in our goal to have a natural diet?

That's prejudice!

[theresaann]

well, I've read compelling arguments on both sides of this issue-the pro-supplementation is very scientific and anecdotal heavy, the con-side is very ideological and not scientifically backed.

I figure it this way-it's not a line in the sand that I"m willing to stake my health on so I swallow a whole-food multi-vitamin with B's in it a few times a week-may GOD not strike me dead..... ;)

[Gosia]

CorporalChicken, thanks for this good, inquisitive question. You are on the right track. :) Yes, humans were meant to be vegans (incindentally, there is a lot of supporting evidence for this, if one wishes, including our build and genetic make-up). And no, veganism does not cause deficiences, so called B12 deficiency is observed in all types of foodists (cooked, non-vegetarian), and it is not observed in all vegans. By the way, there exist several-generation-vegan families, who are not even raw, and they have no deficiency problems. As a raw foodist, assuming that you eat wholesome foods, have enough rest and exercise, you have even less reason to worry. B12 and anything else that your body needs from foods, is found in raw foods. Your ideology is perfect, the assumption about needing anything from non-vegan sources is wrong. Enjoy your foods!

The following quote (apologies if you had read it already) is relevant to your question:

" Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes providing our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”

A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets. "

(Dr Vetrano, http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html)

Gosia.

[karenisraw]

Does anyone know where the B-12 comes from that is put into vitamin and mineral suppliments? Is it from animals or somewhere else?

k
:)

[misslinda]

Gosia or any other articulate individual of clinical/scientific language,

I read the B-12 Cousens article for the 3rd time (Alissa provided). To understand, the enterophic (sp?) pattern is the "channel" that B-12 flows? It's the malonic acid that hinders absorption? why would it interfere and what is the significance of it? Instead of b-12 deficiency, isit the malonic acid tht raises that ovetakes b-12? I hope I sound competent :o




This is a question for ONLY those that had been deficient confirmed by means of testing and supplemented and then tested again.


Of all B-12 supplements ( food,shots or pills) that you tried, which balanced your B-12?

[Forever Young]

A lot of the problem with B12 deficiencys is from the colon not being cleaned out enough to absorb the nutrient's from raw food plants. It takes years to clean the colon completely to receive 100% benefit from organic raw foods. So if you aren't willing to clean yourself out then take your supplement's and be safe. Forever Young :cool:

[misslinda]

FY, I agree but then I reread the Cousens article and even mentions that it cannot be absorbed b/c of the malonic acide and trying to keep those levels low seems to be one of the challenges????

I'm dizzy from reading that article

[Forever Young]

MissLinda....."I'm dizzy from reading that article".........

Well then take some supplements...maybe you are lacking in B12.....LOL!

[misslinda]

OMG, that was too funny!
Got me on that

[Gosia]

Misslinda, I do not want you to feel that I am ignoring you. I too feel a bit fatiqued from all this intelectual work (so I will have some more grapes, this does the trick for me). Perhaps some other time? I gotta go (have to prepare a lecture!).

Best,
Gosia.

[misslinda]

Gosia, by all means don't feel obligated to answer--that's why I was compelled to address as "OR." Thank you for saying so.



;)

[Shivananda]

I'm dizzy from reading that article Hmmmmm, that really shouldn't be M'Dear. Good intellectual work is energizing, not depleting. I dunno, is it possible you overdid the fruit today? Are you getting enough greens? If not, dizzyness and loss of energy is a common reaction. See Victoria Boutenko's newest book Green For Life for more details. You should probably be around 40-50% greens, according to Victoria, and she suggest lots of green smoothies to achieve that. . :)

The key thing to get from what Cousens was saying is that he believes that urinary testing for methyl malonic acid is a more reliable test (what he calls the Gold Standard Test) than the traditional and widely used blood serum test for B-12 to indicate systemic health as regards this essential nutrient.

[Shivananda]

Here lies my problem. I think humans were born to be vegan. I also think we were born to eat raw food... but if B12 is essential to the human body yet can only be found as an 'extra' in sources outside our natural fruit and veg then this pretty much screws up my idealogy ;-) Yep, that is a problem isn't it? Especially since chimpanzees, arguably our closest biological relatives, are not completely vegan in the wild. About 5% of their diet is made up of insects and small animals. And since the body (theirs and ours alike) can store approximately a 3 year supply of B12, primarily in the liver, that small amount of consumption on an occasional basis seems to be sufficient. But deprive them of that small amount and they will eventually get sick. Just like humans do. So pure veganism cannot really be justified on a purely "natural science" basis for humans. This is a weak argument when closely examined.

But ethical vegans do not have that same dilemma, because they are not looking for some standard in nature to achieve, but simply look to their own conscience. And in fact the modern vegan movement did not really start with the natural science arguments of the last few years, but instead with the yogic swamis of Kashmir, several thousand years ago, which intellectual and philosophical tradition actually carries down through the Siddha Yoga line today.

I say that ethical considerations for the health of the planet and all of its 6.5+ billion inhabitants is more than enough to totally justify a meat free diet, devoid of any artificial arguments about the length of the upper intestine or anything else. You don't need to prove or justify an ethical stand for a vegan diet, you just live it.

And it leaves you free, when your body needs something that cannot be adequately produced in the plant world, but which can be artificially produced using fermentation or bacterial culturing, to utilize that resource without guilt or recrimination or denial.

See what I mean?

[karenisraw]

And it leaves you free, when your body needs something that cannot be adequately produced in the plant world, but which can be artificially produced using fermentation or bacterial culturing, to utilize that resource without guilt or recrimination or denial.

Shivananda,

Is this where B-12 suppliments come from? Are suppliments from animals?

k :)

[Gosia]

Hi Misslinda, I am back (almost, have to go again soon). How about instead of trying to analyze the article which I disagree with at many points, I will summarize my main points (to provide the comprehensive list of all the supporting references, would take me along time, sorry that I do not have this amount of time on my hands, but these are readily available on-line):

* B12 (do not confuse with wrongly used cyanocobalamin), and anything else you need from foods (other components are required for perfect health as well, this includes rest, sunshine, exercise), is available in raw vegan foods (multiple sources of all B group have been listed in the links I provided).

* There is nothing wrong or deficient in raw vegan diet. Any problems that arise, are the result of our past, for example years of eating cooked food, which led to digestion problems. Problems with digestion may lead to health problems. These can be overcome by proper diet (raw; food combining rules). In some cases, where the body is very toxic (after years of abuse) this may take some time.

* Biologically, humans are meant to be raw vegans (As evidenced by our build, we are fruit-eaters. As evidenced by DNA studies, we came from Africa where sweet fruit is aboundand; Our closest relatives, bonobos, eat primarily fruit, although I would not use their diet as an absolute key, afterall we are humans not bonobos :) ).


And, finally, when we switch to raw foods, we are not meant to suddenly be scared of any deficiences. We are meant to have fun and eat foods we love! Do you see the amount of concern about deficiences amongst cooked foodists? I think they are the ones who might have the right to worry.

Gosia.

[Shivananda]

Is this where B-12 suppliments come from? Are suppliments from animals? No, the vegetarian ones are not. They are cultivated, much like nutritional yeast is, or in some cases synthesized chemically. It's basically an organic compound of cobalt. But either way the amounts are soooooo tiny... less than a tenth of a drop of water in volume for a daily supplement... that they are inconsequential in any regard except protecting ones' long term health.

It's just that they are not, strictly speaking, from plant sources. Unfortunately most of the "plant sources" mentioned are turning out not be actual B12 that the body can use, but merely B12 analogs... compounds that test positive for B12 content but actually do not alter B12 content in the body when ingested. Spirulina is an example of that issue. Highly vaunted as a vegan B12 source, but actually making almost none available to the body.

[firefaery]

Gosia, I'm inclined to agree with you on the B-12 point. However since many people here have not been raw or vegan for a long period of time, doesn't it stand to reason that they SHOULD be taking a supplement until the body has cleaned house, so to speak? Especially people who embraced this lifestyle as a way to heal, isn't it necessary to support themselves until the healing occurs? That's how I'm trying to see it. I have alot of intestinal damage and some pretty good liver damage going on as well that I am attempting to heal. For someone like me these supplements are what will keep me healthy on a raw vegan diet until my body reprograms itself. Am I looking at it the wrong way?

For a pp: my deficiency was confirmed through a standard blood test, but since I felt that it was an inaccurate test I got a plasma homeocystine test. I didn't do injections, just massive gut healing along with sublinguals every day. i also did algaes and nutritional yeast, but didn't rely solely on them.

[bell]

To get B12 from raw foods should we not wash our veggies?

[misslinda]

To get B12 from raw foods should we not wash our veggies?


:confused: but what about the bugs?

I need to step back and do more reading on B-12 I find it fascinating that one of the most important and impactful nutrients would be such a controversy. I do belive it IS really simple but it's just not sinking in right now.

[cherry405]

Well, I take some b12 a couple times a week just to be on the safe side.
I would really hate to fall out & have people think it was because of
me being a raw vegan. I have read of a few raw people that had problems
with b12 deficiency...I certainly don't want to be one of them. :cool:

[misslinda]

Well earlier I read a number of studies that administered an extraction of fecal matter from case study paritcipant and B-12 was restored.........

I don't understand why the colon does not absorb it yet after we take a shit and eat it, it restores the levels?????


This is utterly hilarious.......I'm by all means not paranoid about B-12 but it's fascinating to me :rolleyes:

[bell]

:confused: but what about the bugs?

I need to step back and do more reading on B-12 I find it fascinating that one of the most important and impactful nutrients would be such a controversy. I do belive it IS really simple but it's just not sinking in right now.
Unless I'm reading it wrong I was under the impression that B12 is derived from microorganisms lol so I don't know. Btw, what do the abbreviations D.S., M.A., AIYS (Dip. Irid.) mean? Regarding Dr. Gina Shaw. Sorry if that's a stupid question.

[RawTruth]

OMG!!! You all are STILL debating this?

I'm outta here. Bored.

[firefaery]

Miss Linda~ I believe it's because of where it's produced in the tract. It's too far down to be usable...so ingestion of it allows the absorption to happen higher up as it needs to.

[Shivananda]

:( confused: but what about the bugs? Just eat 'em. They're good for you :)

But seriously, leaving a little dirt on root veggies is considered to be a valid way to get some natural intake of B12, and several raw chefs I've studied with have emphasized not cleaning root vegetables like beets and carrots TOO well, especially when making juices. As a matter of fact I see that the guy that wrote The Maker's Diet and several other folks are now selling select, premium dirt in jars just to sprinkle on your food, for the natural microorgamism content. No joke.


I I find it fascinating that one of the most important and impactful nutrients would be such a controversy. I do belive it IS really simple but it's just not sinking in right now. Like I said earlier, it's a corner "natural law" vegans paint themselves into, because there simply is no reliable source of B12 in the plant world but we do need it to avoid pernicious anemia and long term nerve damage, etc., but admitting to that observable fact would be like an evangelical Christian admitting that something in the Bible was a mistake. Even a single exception, if admitted to, puts a big crack in the whole argument. Ohmigosh, what if there is another exception? And another? The whole megillah could just... crumble!

To ethical vegans it is much simpler. Veganism harms no animals and has a smaller, kinder ecological footprint than eating meat and dairy does. Period.

And with that stance, one doesn't drive oneself crazy when long term, large scale studies show that there's something non-plant we need to eat to maintain our health. There's no contradiction.

And there's nothing to prove, nothing to defend. It's just a choice.

[sweetgoddess]

RawTruth, help me! My poor head!!!

Linda, hahahaha!!!

Please remember, you are going to read about a few people who have experienced absolutely everything there is to experience! Don't go into fear mode!



B-12 deficiency is in no way vegan specific

[misslinda]

Again --

I strongly suggest you read the three threads Alissa posted here on this forum.

Funny how some will search alll over the place but ignore information that our host believes relevant enough to raw veganism to put right here where we can read it.


LOL...........eRRRRRRRRREEEEEEEEEERRRR I read it 3 times and I think one of the issues is some of the articles are so lengthy and parts of it use scientific lango and phrasing that you feel overwhelmed and a started interpreting correctly or [incorrectly] or all together something completely different?????? :eek:

It doesn't sound to me like most of us are questioning the veganism part but why the [bleep] does our own feces level it after eating???? Why is absorption such an issue? why is the malonic acid interfering with the levels ? :D

I'm gonna read those articles again. Seriously. Rewind.

[misslinda]

Just eat 'em. They're good for you :)



Like I said earlier, it's a corner "natural law" vegans paint themselves into, because there simply is no reliable source of B12 in the plant world but we do need it to avoid pernicious anemia and long term nerve damage, etc.,



NO!!!!!!!! I don't believe that Shiva daddy. It's not the diet I'm concerned with it is the body's phsyiological/metabolical (if I'm even using correct terms here) mechanism in manufacturing (lack of),assimilating and absorption (lack of)that is what fascinates b/c there are vegan sources out there so there I do disagree. I don't think my [creator] would make B-12 such a ,mystery :)

[Forever Young]

You can debate this post till the cows come home and you will still be back to the place you started from. For your notice the cows came home a long time ago. Forever Young :cool:

[misslinda]

* coughs *


Who's gonna be the first to take "crap" :D

[bell]

This whole B12 issue is really confusing. I can understand intuitively that the colon will not reabsorb everything. Nutrients will be taken along with the passing of excrement, especially with high fiber diets. That makes sense to me. So some people are saying that we recycle our B12 but we need cobalt to do so and since we do excrete some of it then we should try to replace it even if it's only in small amounts? Are some saying that we don't lose it at all?

Also, why wouldn't we refer to cyanocobalamin as B12? Doesn't the body convert most cobalamins into an active coenzyme form?

[Shivananda]

So some people are saying that we recycle our B12 but we need cobalt to do so and since we do excrete some of it then we should try to replace it even if it's only in small amounts? ...
Also, why wouldn't we refer to cyanocobalamin as B12? It's actually simpler than you think. Cyanocobalamin is the chemical name for the organic cobalt compound commonly known as Vitamin B12. Vitamins are, by definition, nutrients that are required in the diet in very small amounts, but which can cause disease in the body when absent or deficient.

This entire massive thread is centered around the tug of war between scientific research, which massively demonstrates that you must get B12 in your diet, and that is almost impossible to do so from natural plant sources, versus those who have passionately held but unprovable ideological beliefs to the contrary.

Clearer now?

[bell]

It's actually simpler than you think. Cyanocobalamin is the chemical name for the organic cobalt compound commonly known as Vitamin B12. Vitamins are, by definition, nutrients that are required in the diet in very small amounts, but which can cause disease in the body when absent or deficient.

This entire massive thread is centered around the tug of war between scientific research, which massively demonstrates that you must get B12 in your diet, and that is almost impossible to do so from natural plant sources, versus those who have passionately held but unprovable ideological beliefs to the contrary.

Clearer now?
Yes, I understand that plant sources are not a good source of B12 outside of the soil it was grown in and I prefer to wash my veggies lol. Also, I understand that there are different forms or maybe isomers of B12 and that only two cobalamins, 5'-deoxyadenoxylcobalmin and methylcobalamin, are active as coenzymes and our body can convert the other forms (hydroxocobalamin, cyanocobalamin, aquocobalamin etc) into these active forms. I just don't understand why someone said not to call one of forms of b12, b12. Sorry if that doesn't make sense.

Some people seem to be saying that we hold onto all/some of our minerals.
What I want to understand is the biochemical mechanism that either causes us to keep or lose the cobalt (obviously as a compound). That seems to be the crux of the issue as far as I can tell. For example, we know what happens to glucose and why we need to continually consume it. Glucose-> glycolysis-> into pyruvate-> krebs etcetera. What happens to the B12?

eta: thanks for taking the time to help Shivananda

[Shivananda]

eta: thanks for taking the time to help Shivananda You are very welcome. Always glad to help whenever I can.


What happens to the B12? For a more scientific explanation than I could give, read Alissa's Index post on this, that Raw Talk referred to earlier:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3244

[bell]

You are very welcome. Always glad to help whenever I can.

For a more scientific explanation than I could give, read Alissa's Index post on this, that Raw Talk referred to earlier:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3244
Thanks Shivananda. I did read the article but I didn't see anything about B12 excretion but I may have missed it. Either way, if B12 can be found in the feces and urine then that means there is a mechanism for excretion and since we know that then I don't understand the debate. Or are some people just saying that excess B12 is excreted and total stores will not be depleted? As far as veggie sources are concerned...can't we just run what ever assay's to determine if B12 is contained in certain fruits?

[Shivananda]

Either way, if B12 can be found in the feces and urine then that means there is a mechanism for excretion and since we know that then I don't understand the debate. OK, the key thing you missed, I think, is that B12 is produced by bacteria in the lower intestine, but it is excreted in whole, without being of any use to the body at all, because the lower intestine cannot absorb B12. We are the unwitting hosts for a process we do not benefit from. It's just one of those quirky little cosmic jokes one finds all over the natural world.


As far as veggie sources are concerned...can't we just run what ever assay's to determine if B12 is contained in certain fruits? Yes, we can and we have, and that's what is behind Gabriel Cousens and other's assertion that B12 is not available from plant sources. (And Cousens, if you don't know, is one of the foremost raw food healers in the world) The confusion has arisen because B12 analogs HAVE been found in plant sources, like spirulina, which pass the chemical assay test, but do NOT produce B12 activity in the human body. We've seen this before, in cases where say, the "left handed" version of achemical compound had distinct health benefits to the body, whereas the "right handed" chemical twin produced no results or even negative results.

Beyond that very general explanation, I'd suggest you head out to the internet or in to your library to dig into it deeper. There's a ton of information available. Sifting through it all is the issue. :)

Good luck!

[bell]

OK, the key thing you missed, I think, is that B12 is produced by bacteria in the lower intestine, but it is excreted in whole, without being of any use to the body at all, because the lower intestine cannot absorb B12. We are the unwitting hosts for a process we do not benefit from. It's just one of those quirky little cosmic jokes one finds all over the natural world.
Oh....I get it lol. der. Sorry to be so dense. Ok some believe we do benefit and some believe we don't. Gosh, that took a while to sink in.


Yes, we can and we have, and that's what is behind Gabriel Cousens and other's assertion that B12 is not available from plant sources. (And Cousens, if you don't know, is one of the foremost raw food healers in the world) The confusion has arisen because B12 analogs HAVE been found in plant sources, like spirulina, which pass the chemical assay test, but do NOT produce B12 activity in the human body. We've seen this before, in cases where say, the "left handed" version of achemical compound had distinct health benefits to the body, whereas the "right handed" chemical twin produced no results or even negative results.
ok, yea I remember that from organic chem class.


Beyond that very general explanation, I'd suggest you head out to the internet or in to your library to dig into it deeper. There's a ton of information available. Sifting through it all is the issue. :)

Good luck!
Well, I do have a few books but it's all so long and complicated. This specific nutrient is far more complex then other nutrients I've read about.

Thanks for taking the time to explain this to me and now I understand why there is such a debate. It would probably be difficult to prove that we don't benefit from the bacteria in our colon with out a controlled study and that would probably be unethical to conduct.

[Vandy]

This thread is cracking me up!!! hahaha everyone is getting

A) Brain Damage from being so confused
B) More worried
C) A Good laugh that this debate has become so CRARARARZZY

but I think it is great... one big happy family!

[CorporalChicken]

I think this is the most in-depth info/debate I'd ever stumbled across on B12 :)

Obviously, B12 defiency exists. But what's the likelihood/stats of ALL people on raw food diets who take neither supplements or fortified foods getting this?

Are some people more at risk than others?

And if so, why?

Are there any meat-eaters who regularly have access to B12 yet still have defiencies, and how severe is this defiency in contrast to raw food vegan defiency?

I think there's more than meets the eye on this one!

Maybe in the year 2375 they'll discover all along that you can get your B12 intake from eating your fingernails or bogeys or something ;)

[bell]

Maybe in the year 2375 they'll discover all along that you can get your B12 intake from eating your fingernails or bogeys or something
lol that's hilarious

[sweetgoddess]

I can breathe the air and ingest toxins.....I can eat a green leaf and ingest pesticides that damage me internally...I can bathe in water and take the chemicals in through my skin which then damage my organs....I can be fed via implant through my colin to nourish my entire body.....how is it that the only thing in the world that can be inside me with absolutely no benefit or detriment is B-12? That is some special stuff!! Worthy of being our new currency!

[Gosia]

Still going? Want something scientific and easy to understand? Here it is:
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/articles/vetrano1.html

Hugs,
Gosia.

[misslinda]

Something is not right................LOL, Cousens kinda disappointed me when he said "some are lucky" that is so far from his lango :p that made me want to reach out and put him on cooked food. :D

I do believe I am not deficient and have no worries :)

Dang, if someone decides to open a laboratory business to take clients fecal mnatter and do a vit b12 water extraction, would you be inclined??? ;)

[misslinda]

when I do a keyword search on raw vegans and vit b 12, Cousens is quoted 99%99 of the time so I'm leaning towards whatever he's yacking ;)

[bell]

Still going? Want something scientific and easy to understand? Here it is:
http://naturalhygienesociety.org/articles/vetrano1.html

Hugs,
Gosia.
I don't think this article is so easy to understand lol but I have some questions anyway.


The intrinsic factor is not secreted by the small intestines, although some think it is secreted at the beginning of the duodenum. It is thought to be a mucoprotein or many mucoproteins, and the manner by which it facilitates absorption of B-12 is unknown.
I thought the role of the intrinsic factor was to bind to the vitamin in the small intestine. Is that not true? I also don't understand why this vitamin has to complex with something else. Is that because of the cobalt some how?


Since the intrinsic factor acts only in a pH of seven, it would seem that it would of necessity be useful only in an area of the digestive tract that is neutral or be altogether non-useful to man. Inasmuch as the secretions of the gastrointestinal tract of man are either acid or alkaline, where would the intrinsic factor be useful
I thought the ph of the SI is 7, no?


When most of the stomach is removed because of gasrtic ulcer or cancer, pernicious anemia will develop in two to seven years. Is this really due to a lack of intrinsic factor or poor digestion due to a lack of secretions in general?
This is a good question


We know that patients who have been on vitamin B-12 injections for years without much benefit can take a fast and get well.
I don't understand what injections have to do with taking a fast. Injecting B12 would over ride the need for digestive absorption would it not. do you know the name of the study they are referring to? I'm not sure what they are saying here.


Much ado is made of the vegans in England who supposedly after a few years develop pernicious anemia because of a lack of animal proteins in their diet. It is said that they do not develop the blood condition but that they develop the more serious troubles, such as degeneration of the spinal cord and brain.
I thought pernicious anemia was defined as an autoimmune condition in which the body produces antibodies that attack parietal cells. What does this have to do with animal proteins?


Vitamin B-12 is necessary in minuscule amounts. This, regardless of what the "authorities" say, we can get in our vegetable foods. We can store enough B-12 in the liver to last approximately two years or more
This sounds familiar.


It is also found in the intestinal contents of normal persons, as well as in the feces of patients with pernicious anemia. There is, therefore, no reason to believe that a dietary deficiency of this factor is the cause of the disease."
I think this is an important point but again with the paragraph quoted above it goes along with main stream thinking about B12. We can store it for a few years, need minute amounts etc.

I'll stop with the questions and commentary. I don't know if I would consider this a scientific source.

[Gosia]

Hi Bell, I think that the best for you is to email Dr Vetrano (a scientist) and ask her directly. It is well known that patients diagnosed with so called B12 deficiency get better simply by fasting. Again, ask Dr Vetrano, she will be able to give you the details. She is a very approchable person. I remember people gathering around her when she visited some boards which I used to visit once. My impression was that she was very nice to talk to.

Gosia.

[karenisraw]

I want to post about an occurance of thought I have, but I don't want to REALLY tick somebody off here so I won't talk about it.

k
:p

[misslinda]

LOL.....OMG, now FASTING is INVOLVED with B-12!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I love this thread. It never gets boring........Ih ave to be alone to read all the information and then refer to one of my med heads to explain all of it to me.

Karen, everyone's opinions,quesitons and insight is so importnat for all of us to grow in raw land. I would love to hear your insight :)

[misslinda]

Are they suggesting that fasting lowers the levels of methyalonic acid (sp) that hinders vit b 12 levels?

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:

[karenisraw]

O.K. Misslinda,

What I have to say and this is just a natural progression of thought that simply occurred to me and this does not mean there is any validity to it, but here goes.

Now, if, like it seems there is no source of b-12 other than animals and long ago before the invention of fire people were not very intelligent, and if like what I have read, B-12 is necessary to proper brain function and after the invention of fire and the consumption of meat the people evolved into being more intellient then, do you think that they became more intelligent from the B-12 they got from meat? *ooohh, please dont shoot me for saying that* *looking over my shoulder expecting to get shot*.

This just occurred to me. I would like to believe that vegans are the way humans were designed or at least intended to be designed.

I've looked everywhere and can't find any sources of b-12 except from animals that can be utilized by the body. So I don't know what to think. I agree with shivananda and all of his posts. I have found exactly the same info as he posted. I just wonder if I should just accept taking suppliments and be happy with that.

k
:)

[Gosia]

OK, what about B-13, C-5, E-23 and X-2 (only to start with)? How can you prove that you are not getting deficient on these on raw vegan diet?
Gosia.
(blink blink)

[misslinda]

LOL............that was going to be my next question Gosia..........there's a possibility that another deficiency of another vitamin can hinder b-12?

there are so many other vitamins---why is b-12 such a hearbreaker? I mean other deficiencies causes similar symptoms as b-12 deficiency. :rolleyes:

I'm tired...........Karen, LOL................* no comment * Cousens discusses injections. ;)

[bell]

Hi Bell, I think that the best for you is to email Dr Vetrano (a scientist) and ask her directly. It is well known that patients diagnosed with so called B12 deficiency get better simply by fasting. Again, ask Dr Vetrano, she will be able to give you the details. She is a very approchable person. I remember people gathering around her when she visited some boards which I used to visit once. My impression was that she was very nice to talk to.

Gosia.
I will email her. It's nice that she's available. I don't doubt that B12 absorption could improve following a fast, I just don't understand the comparison with intravenous B12. Thanks!

[Shivananda]

why is b-12 such a hearbreaker? Mostly, I think, because a serious vitamin B12 deficiency can take years to develop, and sometimes present no serious symptoms until it is too late to correct. And there is also the confusing factor that people's experience with B12 varies widely.

But the reason Minot, Whipple and Murphy were awarded the 1934 Noble Prize for Medicine for their discovery of B12 is that it meant that the puzzling and widespread condition then known as pernicious anemia could finally be prevented easily and inexpensively.

In the specific case of my former sweetie who developed tingling and numbness and loss of fine motor control in her fingers... a real tragedy for an artist... it took 20 years or so for the issue to come to the fore in her life, though for some it can apparently happen in as little as 3 or 4 years.

She had once read a little pamphlet saying vegetarians didn't really need to worry about Vitamin B12, so she didn't. She just didn't think about it ever, never got tested, nada. Then many years later she started having issues. She tried many "alternative" solutions, including the Natural Hygiene method of fasting, but they were all useless for her. Finally she elected to take conventional Vitamin B12 injections and eventually the progress of the disease stopped, although it can never be reversed. But she is now finally stable, on regular supplementation.

Today on a "standard" vegetarian diet that tragedy might not have happened, because Vitamin B12 fortification has become so common recently in breakfast cereals and other processed grain products.

But raw food vegans aren't eating any of those fortified foods, so the B12 has to come from somewhere else, for all but those lucky few who do seem to have a genetic predisposition to making it on their own.

As Arky said much earlier, it is very cheap to supplement for... it costs me maybe $1 a month... and there is no downside to making sure I get enough. So why risk the heartbreak?

[RowanC]

I'm too depressed today to spend the hours it would take to read these 89 posts with dial=up. So I'm asking if there is a quick answer in here anywhere and if so, if someone will give it to me?

I think the B=12 is a valid issue.
I have a lot of the symptoms myself of B=12 deficiency.

Is there a food, or group of foods that we can eat every day to ensure enough B-12?

You speak of supplements, Shiv. My understanding is that our bodies cannot absorb mineral supplements... so then what?

[jujube]

This is a very informative thread. I have not supplemented B12 in the 3 years I have been raw, but tomorrow I'm going in for a blood test to see what my levels are, just to be safe. I will post my results here if anyone is interested.

One thing that has concerned me is I've been having some numbness/tingling in my hands and feet lately, which I've heard is a symptom. The last time I had any blood work done was about a month before I went raw. B12 was normal then. I was vegetarian at the time, but only ate eggs once a week and never had dairy. I was probably getting B12 through fortified foods though...cereals and such.

I'll be interested in knowing what my B12 status is now. Does anyone know what the normal range is?

[greengirl]

Shivananda, can I ask which high value sublingual supplement you use? Thank you!

[Shivananda]

Is there a food, or group of foods that we can eat every day to ensure enough B-12? OK, so you want the Reader's Digest version of a 1,200 page tome... :)

OK, well, no, not really, not for raw vegans. That's the issue. And the debate. But prudently speaking, the overwhelming consensus of the available research says no.


You speak of supplements, Shiv. My understanding is that our bodies cannot absorb mineral supplements... so then what? Well, *FOR ME* the so-called vegetarian B12 supplements are close enough for jazz, because they produce measurable increases in the B12 levels in the body, versus all the spirulinas and other supposed sources that do not produce that result.

Like I said earlier, the amount needed is tiny. One sublingual tablet, the size of a tiny pea, costing maybe 5 cents, containing 1000 mcg of B12, supplies 160 times the currently accepted RDA (roughly 6 mcg avg.). So taking one occasionally, in addition to the nutritional yeast I use and the wheatgrass I juice I make every day, and the healthy dirt I leave on my beets and carrots is *TO ME* a no-brainer piece of personal health insurance.

[RowanC]

I've tried the wheatgrass juice and it's not for me. Burns my esophogus and stomach like it was on fire.

So the amount we need is minimal?

How many times a week would I have to eat one boiled egg to get enough B12?

[AutumnBreezColordLeavz]

Gosia,

I found this in the article that I posted a link to above.

"The current nutritional consensus is that no plant foods can be relied on as a safe source of vitamin B12.

Bacteria present in the large intestine are able to synthesise B12. In the past, it has been thought that the B12 produced by these colonic bacteria could be absorbed and utilised by humans. However, the bacteria produce B12 too far down the intestine for absorption to occur, B12 not being absorbed through the colon lining."

You may want to look somemore into the B-12 issue.

k
:)
So, I wonder if colon cleansing would rob you of B12 absorbing recycling that goes on when you are getting rid of the other stuff below.
I plan to do a colonix cleanse when my product gets here. I am going to do the cleanse for 60 days but also take B12 along with the friendly bacteria tablets as to be sure I am not losing out and B12 for once a week for a couple of weeks when I am through as to be sure I am not robbing during the cleanse.

[RowanC]

I can no longer follow this thread. It literally goes off the righthand side of my screen and I cna't click on the postings.

I've tried the other "modes' of display, but can't find most of the posts. THis sucks.... help?

[Shivananda]

How many times a week would I have to eat one boiled egg to get enough B12?No, no, don't even go there. :eek:

Trust me, it's far, far simpler just to let a little sublingual tablet dissolve under your tongue once in a while. A 1000 mcg tab is the B12 equivalent of maybe 140 dozen eggs. :D

[bell]

So, I wonder if colon cleansing would rob you of B12 absorbing recycling that goes on when you are getting rid of the other stuff below.

I was wondering the same thing. I had lunch with a biochemist today and probed him with B12 questions and this one in particular. He said that the bacteria in our colon might produce B12 and 1-2% could get into the body via passive diffusion but since there isn't any "intrinsic factor" (that word again lol) B12 in the colon is not a reliable source. Point being...a cleanse probably wouldn't have a great affect since it's not a great source for B12 anyway.

I take a B12 once a week/two weeks but since I'm trying to increase raw percentage in my diet I'll probably take a vitamin twice a week. Fortified cereals were always a part of my daily diet so I didn't worry about supplements (I really don't like to take any pills).

[bell]

This just occurred to me. I would like to believe that vegans are the way humans were designed or at least intended to be designed.

:)
I don't think it matters if were were designed to be vegan or not. At least we have culturally evolved enough to realize that animal exploitation/killing etc is not necessary.

[shelah]

shivananda,
thanks for all your valuable input!
can you tell us which brand of b-12 sublingual you use? TIA

[rawpriestess]

You can get B12 from these sources, there are more, but these are the most common raw sources
Alfalafa Leaves
Bananas
Barley grass
Bee pollen (not vegan)
comfrey leaves
Concord Grapes and raisins
ginseng
Hops
Miso (unpasturized)
Mustard greens
Nutritional yeast
Plums and purnes
Sauerkraut (unpasteurized)
Seaweeds (especially kelp and nori)
spirulina
Sprouts (all)
Sunflower seeds
Yogurt (vegan)
Wheatgrass

I would think this would be enough to keep anyone's B12 up

also, I eat veggies right out of the garden, no rinsing unless absolutely necessary, I eat mushrooms out of the lawn, and I kiss my dog on the mouth,

so I get PLENTY of B12

[RowanC]

I eat all of the above, so looks like I'm safe! :)
Thanks!

[stRAWberry fields forever]

rawpriestess,

What is vegan raw yogurt? Where can I find this?

[Sheryl]

Robert Cohen had a great newsletter about B12 that was definitely for adults only.... I'll leave that to your imagination! Some of you might have seen it! I just searched for it on his site and can't find it now.

Cheers,
Sheryl

[misslinda]

In case anyone didnt' read the link that Gosia supplied,

http://www.roylretreat.com/articles/b12.html


NO we can all sleep tonite :)

[rawpriestess]

vegan yogurt and keifir, can be made with nut milks and the yogurt culture

[Shivananda]

shivananda, thanks for all your valuable input!
You are very welcome. I really, truly hope nobody on this board has to ever deal with what these two wonderful, extraordinary women have had to deal with, over a few cents worth of dietary supplementation they didn't get.


can you tell us which brand of b-12 sublingual you use? Mine? I don't know. My Naturopath's dispensary puts it up in a plain wrap bottle whenever I need some. But wherever you are, you should be able to find it, and pretty cheap too. B12 is ridiculously inexpensive, so there's no big international drug cartel driving the use of this essential nutrient. That's why it makes no sense *TO ME* not to take it.

On my way home from a meeting tonight I stopped off at a local HFS to check and I found a vegetarian B12 (1000 mcg) /Folic Acid (800 mcg) /B6 (2 mg) sublingual for $8 / 100. That's a year's supply at 2x per week, 2 years at 1x. I mean, why wouldn't you?

Besides, as Raw Priestess was good enough to remind us in another thread, http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12865 the recent International Living Foods conference at the Hippocrates Institute in Florida concluded as a body this January, in the combined wisdom of Living Foods experts with 405 years total experience between them, that B12 supplementation is one of the basic rules of raw vegan life.

Trust me on this, the alternative is not a pretty picture.

[sweetgoddess]

Incan berries are high in B-12 and a delicious way to get your share.
Alissa carries them www.alissacohen.com (http://www.alissacohen.com/)

[sport]

Inca berries are high in B-12 and a delicious way to get your share.
Alissa carries them www.alissacohen.com (http://www.alissacohen.com)
I have had 2 bags of them in my cupboard for weeks and only last week started to add them to my smoothies. I have never read anything about them and do not know how many you should use. I added 6 today but that my just be a drop in the ocean.
The taste is reasonable strong.
I tried adding them to walnutt icecream but the food processer made no dent in them and they ended up whole in the finished icecream but they blend nicely.

[Im2Fruity]

I have b-12 supplements that I take every so often but not every day..I don't think I notice a difference either.