Helen Of Tennessee Plz Step In - Raw Dog Questions

[TP]

My questions are for you and anyone who has experience/recommendations for feeding/transitioning a dog to a raw food diet.

I have a 2yo labradoodle named Jed. He is feeling the increased stress of my 2 month old raw food diet, because I am out running him like he has never been ran before. He loves the increased exercise, but the poor feller seems like he is getting too skinny and seems like he is always hungry. We feed him a premium kibble but aside from that he eats a few veggies and fruits and eggs that my kids eat that fall to the ground here and there.. And sometimes I remember to put some coconut oil in his dish..

I read in a post of yours somewhere that you feed your dogs a raw diet. I have read a little about it but the one time I checked into it, I had a lady quote me $100/week to feed him raw.. I forget the name of the packaged raw stuff I was looking at. I am sorry but that's just not gonna happen lol.. We spend I would guess about $30/month for his food now, and I am willing to spend more if need be to get him what he needs but not $100's more lol..

I am sure there is a cheaper way to do it, but I don't know where to look for advice. Have ye any for me? What do you do and (if you don't mind me asking) what does it cost you to feed your dogs raw?

Thanks!

[honeybee joy]

I do this. I go to my local Wild Oats Market. They have a juicer. I go up and ask them for the pulp from the vegetable juicer. They give it to me for free! If you have a wild oats market (or a juice bar) ask them. They will probably just give it to you. It is a waste product and they throw it away. I just add a few more other veggies. Right now I just blend it into the vita mix with other veggies and add it to their dry dog food for now.

[TP]

interesting.. so they eat it if you mix it in? my dog probably would as long as it isn't too much.. is there much nutrition left in the pulp? I have a juicer and make juice for my kids (not for me as much anymore as I prefer smoothies).. so I could do this but I question how valuable it is nutrition-wise..

[TP]

i am thinking more along the lines of the classic raw dog food diet i've heard about where you give them bones with meat on them and other kinds of raw meat.. where to buy? how to do it economically? what to buy? how to feed it in a sanitary fashion.. (yuck)..

[jenna rose]

Have you considered just switching their regular dry kibble over to a raw kibble brand? I've had much success doing that with my dog and cats. The brand I use is InnovaEVO, if you're curious.

I've wanted to do just fresh raw food for them, but with the number of animals and not having a good source here for quality meat, I haven't made the jump yet.

[Mothergoose]

It is a rip off to buy premade raw dog food. I would prepare it myself. There are several approaches to the diet. Billinghurst has a book out "BARF" and "Feed your dog a bone". Also Kymathy Shulze and Susan Johnson have very good books out about raw feeding for dogs.

You normally feed 3% of the dog's body weight of food per day. 60-70% of that should be raw meat on bones, 10% should be offal or organ meat, and 10% can be veggies mix and other percent can be eggs, yogurt (probiotic) and extra. Some people feed grains some people do not (if your dog has allergies I would avoid grains). Volhard has a book out too with a fairly economical raw diet, and also Pitcairn....I do not care for Pitcairn's version due to he uses a lot of grains.

There are also raw feeding groups on yahoo to consult too.

[jenna rose]

Why is it a "rip off"? It's working quite well for me and my animals are thriving. Their brand of food has no grains/fillers in it, either.

[TP]

I am really looking for what would be the easiest/most convenient, and economical way to do it. I do think we need to get him off grains. I know he has allergies although we've never done anything about it..

I guess I should take this to a yahoo group or something.. Another concern is that even if I brought him home some meat he would make a big mess of it.. I can't imagine giving him anything that he couldnt gobble up from within his dish.. But that factor right there means more preparation etc..

Sounds like I should also look into the book by Volhard.. Thanks :)

Jenna, where can it be purchased and what's the cost? I'll look into this too..

[TP]

My initial google suggests that InnovaEVO isn't raw.. But maybe there are different types.

[Mothergoose]

I just think it is a better deal to do it yourself instead of buying premade raw. Depending on what you buy it can cost about 200.00 a month to feed about a 60-75 lb dog on a premade diet. You can cut the cost at least half if you do it yourself. Also, it is no easier really to buy the premade, you still have to understand how to feed the dog. It is more important to watch the dog's reactions to the food than if he were on kibble. However, it is a preference (drive standard or automatic)....I just think of this as an economic decision as well.

[jenna rose]

200$?! wow. well, the InnovaEvo that i have is around 45$ a bag. I think it's a 28.6 lb. bag, too. it's "raw food in a kibble form". I have a 100lb. dog and I have to buy a new bag about every 3-4 weeks. I feed him twice a day.

http://www.naturapet.com/display.php?d=product-detail&pxsl=//product%5B@id='1246'%5D Here's the Innova.

There is another brand called Prairie that carries the dry and also the frozen.

One of my cats has cancer and the main dr. at the vet's office is a big advocate of raw food for animals and he was pleased that I had put her on Innova evo. He also mentioned the Prairie brand to me.

[honeybee joy]

Thanks for the info Jenna. I have 3 dogs also and feel at this time trying to feel that many raw would just not be feasable at this time.

I have been feeding them dry nutro dog food with blended juice pulp from the juice bar and mushrooms, red bell pepper and celery. I would just do it in the vita mix.

I will try that out.

What changes have you seen in your dogs health since starting them in that?

[TP]

wow that sounds great jenna! thanks. I will give it a go for sure at that price.. THere are plenty of stores around that have it too.. Then over time I will keep reading what mothergoose suggested and take it from there.. :)

[jenna rose]

Thanks for the info Jenna. I have 3 dogs also and feel at this time trying to feel that many raw would just not be feasable at this time.

I have been feeding them dry nutro dog food with blended juice pulp from the juice bar and mushrooms, red bell pepper and celery. I would just do it in the vita mix.

I will try that out.

What changes have you seen in your dogs health since starting them in that?

I had all of mine on some forms of Nutro petfood, as I thought it was the best brand around. I worked at a pet store for 4 years so that's what I learned was the best, along with Iams/Eukanuba. I started getting more into animal activism and found out that Iams was actually testing on animals, so I veered from that.

Once I stopped working at the pet store, I was reading up even more and talking to more and more people and found out that brands like Nutro/ Science Diet weren't even as "great!" as I had been taught to believe and sell. It was all to get customers to buy the food we sold.

Basically, if it's sold at a grocery store or pet store, I don't buy it or recommend it. The Innovaevo that I get is sold at a specialty shop for animals (mainly dogs). They also don't sell animals at that specialty shop so I feel better for that, too.

-stops rambling- :p

[jenna rose]

Ack, I forgot to answer your "what changes have you seen in your dog's health.." question.

Well, for starters. He's a labrador/newfoundland mix. He's about 5.5-6 years old. We're not EXACT on the age because he was adopted as an adult.

I've noticed some really incredible changes in his skin and coat. For the longest time he had this really bad dry, flaky spot on his back at the base of his tail. I could never get it to go away and this was when I was feeding him Nutro - which is advertised as being superb for skin and coat. Go figure. His coat is shinier, even when I haven't bathed him in a while. It's easier to take care as it's really thick and funky from being a mixed breed. He has more pep; he's lost weight; he has more energy. I really think he's happier overall and calmer, too, for some reason. I can't put my finger on it.

I'm thinking of introducing the Prairie frozen raw food every now and then and see how that goes.

[chilove]

It is very easy and cheap to feed a raw diet at home. Chicken is usually around 79 cents per lb or cheaper on special. My dogs (and cat) only get raw chicken (I remove and discard the breasts because they don't need that much muscle meat) that I cut up with poultry shears, some organ meat, and some veggies blended up with raw eggs once a week. It is very easy and way cheaper than premium kibble. Check out http://rawfed.com/myths/ You can also do a search online and come up with tons of info. Just don't be intimidated by any sites that make it sound any harder than cutting up some poultry and blending up some veggies occasionaly.

Nora Lenz (www.rawschool.com) does consulting for feeding dogs raw. I did a consult with her after doing some research and got a lot out of it.

I just figured it out and it costs me about $70 per MONTH total to feed a 90 lb dog, a 9 lb dog AND a 9 lb cat!

At the very least, every dog should be taken completely off all grains. Grains are very unnatural for dogs (and cats). You can find grain free premium kibble and canned food now in the higher end pet stores.

Take care,

Audrey

[TP]

Wow good info! Thanks.. I have more questions but I will read the links you posted instead of bugging you with them! lol

[honeybee joy]

Originally Posted By jenna rose

I had all of mine on some forms of Nutro petfood, as I thought it was the best brand around. I worked at a pet store for 4 years so that's what I learned was the best, along with Iams/Eukanuba. I started getting more into animal activism and found out that Iams was actually testing on animals, so I veered from that.

Thanks for the ramble.

I had a feeling Nutro was not a good as they claimed, just did not know where to look for that info. I was also wondering whether they tested on animals or not.

I just found out that one of my dogs has arthritis of the spine. He is only 3 or 4. (Not sure of exact age, got him from the pound.)

I will try out the stuff you reccomened when their food runs out.

[chilove]

TP, you or anyone else is welcome to email me with questions! I'll try to answer them, I'm not an expert, Nora is. I really recommend a phone consult with her. But I'd be happy to help you if I can. My email address is chilove88@hotmail.com

Take care,

Audrey

[sigtau66]

Well, I'm getting here late to this thread, but I feel I must respond since I'm a self-professed "dog food snob." :D

I'm going to back what Jenna Rose said, Innova Evo is probably the best food (in kibble form) you can buy for your dog. I can't testify to any dramatic changes for my dog (check out my journal to see a picture of him) since he's been eating it since he was 5 months old, but there are plenty of stories out there. Also, once again I'm going to second her comment about if it comes from a grocery store or pet store, it's no good. Those foods are high in grain content which is not good for a dog.

As for raw diets, there are a few commercial raw food diets available. Bravo being the one I'm most familiar with (I've looked into doing it). But, if you have the patience and time to learn about raw food diets for pets and time to prepare them, it's MUCH cheaper to do it manually. The price/lb will actually be cheaper than a lot of kibbles you can buy, let alone a prepared raw food diet.

The toughest part about taking your pet raw is making sure they are getting the proper nutrition over the longterm. If you want to make a change tomorrow, that's good and you don't have to worry about getting the nutrition right initially. But, you do need to do research for the longterm on getting the pet what it needs to be healthy.

Good luck if you do transition your pet to this. It's something I've wanted to do and, now since I'm raw, I might get there for my boy. :)

*edit: Oh crap, forgot to paste this link. :) This is an interview with a veternarian (it's 4 parts). You can ignore the parts where she tries to sell her food, but do pay attention to the other nuggest of information that she gives about commercial dog foods. Very eye opening if you didn't already know this info.

http://www.newstarget.com/015940.html

[Helen Of Tennessee]

Hi TP,

I go to Wild Oats and they sell the Whole Natural Chicken, usually for $2.29 a pound, but if I watch for sales I can get it for $1.49 a pound. I just ask them to ground up the whole chicken(s), bones and all.

Then I use the "S" blade in my food processor and put in carrots and lettuce. Sometimes other veggies and mix that up and add it to the meat.

Occasionally I'll add in some raw eggs.

Snacks: bananas, apples, carrots (whole), etc.

Then on a real occasion, I will have some Barleygreen powder in the house and I'll add that to their dinners.

Here are a few websites to give you ideas of what to feed your dogs. The trick is finding the meat at a reasonable price:

http://www.patmckay.com/

http://www.barfworld.com/html/barf_diet/barfdiet_specific.shtml

http://www.healthy-paws.ca/

[Sillybloss]

Coming in late in the game here, but I also feed a raw diet to my dog, a 50 lb Aussie. As Helen said, the trick is to look for the deals. We only do chicken, as it's cheapest and my dog had terrible reactions to beef (which I understand is not unusual). Recently, I got 10 lb bags of chicken leg quarters for $3.00 each :rolleyes: Two of those fed him for at least a week. You can NOT beat that with ANY other food! I buy frozen bone-in chicken at the big box stores. My dog has come to LOVE working on his meal! The chewing is also very healthy (I don't grind anything....he gets it as it comes from the store). I also give him green powder as he refused my attempts as ground veggies. He LOVES the green powder. Waits for it every day!

The books were helpful, but I think you're better off either doing a consult or checking on the raw food yahoo boards and feeling your way along, because every dog, cat (and person!) is different. Just as some of us can eat unlimited fruit, others cannot. A book is only one perspective. (In my opinion),

P.S. - I'm totally against grains in any dog food.....How much grain would a dog eat in the wild....only a VERY small amount in gut contents or a little grass snacking.

[myssi]

Here is another brand that offers a pre-packaged frozen raw diet. I haven't tried their raw line yet, but my pets have thrived beautifully on their dry food. A good friend of mine who manages a pet store saved her dog from cancer by switching to raw.

http://www.naturalbalanceinc.com/dogformulas/RAW.html

[TP]

thanks for the input everyone.. this turned out to be the informative thread I thought it could be :) I have a lot to digest :D

[CorporalChicken]

Can I just say that dogs as omnivores and cats as carnivores (though they are living in a current omnivore state with their cereal based supermarket food) do need so much special care with their diets. I think only the most dedicated pet owners- with time to spare- can seriously attempt to seize control of an animals diet.

I wanted my cats as vegetarian (preferably vegan) and bought some Vegecat (vegan cat supplement with artificial taurine (a must for cats)). I did a lot of research on the net about veggie pets etc and I generally saw a lot of bad experiences (among with a few good) from people trying to get their pets to go veggie/vegan. My neighbours cat loved the vegecat, but my new feral didn't. I don't have the time to wean them onto 100% vegetarian, but my Dad picks them up an organic brand (plus they eat lots of human food!).

A cat can go out and hunt if it's lacking something in its diet. Dogs aren't likely to.

Have you tried a vegedog style food mix just to see if there's a difference/improvement? You make the meals yourself and use the supplement to make sure they get their nutrients.

I always found it bizarre that my bf's cat loves melon, my neighbours cat loves vegan spaghetti bolognese and my own two each have a love of marmite toast and V8 vegetable juice!

I'm sure if we work at it, we'll find out what they need, like and love eventually. :)

[rawnora]

[QUOTE=CorporalChicken]Can I just say that dogs as omnivores and cats as carnivores (though they are living in a current omnivore state with their cereal based supermarket food) do need so much special care with their diets. I think only the most dedicated pet owners- with time to spare- can seriously attempt to seize control of an animals diet.

Animals that are anatomically omnivorous can actually thrive on a much LARGER range of foods than, say, human beings or other plant-eating species. This is especially the case with an opportunistic scavenger species like canines. Feeding dogs is not a complicated science best left to the "experts" in the dog food industry. That idea is precisely the opposite of the truth. The dog food industry is single-handedly responsible for epidemic sickness among dogs. No matter *what* you feed your dog, it is not difficult to improve upon commercial dog food.

Feeding cats is no trickier. All they need are the bodies of small plant-eating animals: Muscle, bones, organs, some 'pre-digested' plant matter (infrequently), and you have it.

There are lots of things I've learned from experimenting with my animals' diets and from my own raw transition that I like to pass along to other people, and these can save them from having to experiment like I did. Getting some guidance allows a person to get a head start, but is not necessary.

Figuring out how to feed an animal you've taken responsibility for is something we've all been brainwashed into thinking is optional or only for those who have extra time on their hands. That's wrong, imo. Responsible pet ownership isn't about annual vaccinations, check ups at the vet, and having a nice dog house in the back yard (so your dog can be dry while he lives out his life sentence in solitary confinement). It's about giving them what they naturally require, nutritionally and socially.

Nora
www.RawSchool.com

[CorporalChicken]

Hiya Raw Nora

I totally agree store bought food is a disgrace. That stuff sickens me! Yuck!

My post was more aimed at the people who might not have time on their hands to prepare their pets dishes correctly and in the name of what was right for their pet. I'm sure most responsible pet owners wouldn't do anything bad, but I was worried someone might stumble across this thread and start trying to bring their cat or dog up on a diet that was not researched.

Made my boyfriend a vegetarian lasagne last night. My oldest cat sat there positively drooling ;-)

[Kris]

I feed my dog raw (ground raw meat and bones, fresh fruits and veggies) and was hopeful that these so-called "raw" kibbles would be an easy way to feed her a meal or two while traveling and away from refrigeration. However, after reading the ingredients of these kibbles, I am very unimpressed. Sure, they may be better than Iams, but they all still contain dairy products! DAIRY?!?!?! For dogs?!?!? I think not.

Dunno about the rest of you, but I'm sticking with my cheap (around $15/month, including LOTS of treats and goodies) raw dog food for my sweet little doggie. She deserves the very best, even if it takes me 5 more minutes per day to mix up her food.

[CorporalChicken]

People have been so badly brainwashed by dairy, it's frightening :-(

I never understand the idea of anyone or their animal companions getting the BEST from health via another animal's eggs and breast milk.

Are there any stories of any kind of addictive additives or drugs being added to cat food? We all know that cat food only has a tiny percentage of meat worthwhile to a cat, so why do cats often choose cat food over fresh meat? I know at least three cats who will turn down fresh meat but will gorge themselves on some horrible popular brand food.