What do you think of this study?

[Lucinda]

Long-term consumption of a raw food diet is associated with favorable serum LDL cholesterol and triglycerides but also with elevated plasma homocysteine and low serum HDL cholesterol in humans.

Koebnick C, Garcia AL, Dagnelie PC, Strassner C, Lindemans J, Katz N, Leitzmann C, Hoffmann I.

Dietary Fibre and the Metabolic Syndrome Group, German Institute of Human Nutrition, Potsdam-Rehbruecke, D-14558 Nuthetal, Germany. koebnick@mail.dife.de

High consumption of vegetables and fruits is associated with reduced risk for cardiovascular disease. However, little information is available about diets based predominantly on consumption of fruits and their health consequences. We investigated the effects of an extremely high dietary intake of raw vegetables and fruits (70-100% raw food) on serum lipids and plasma vitamin B-12, folate, and total homocysteine (tHcy). In a cross-sectional study, the lipid, folate, vitamin B-12, and tHcy status of 201 adherents to a raw food diet (94 men and 107 women) were examined. The participants consumed approximately 1500-1800 g raw food of plant origin/d mainly as vegetables or fruits. Of the participants, 14% had high serum LDL cholesterol concentrations, 46% had low serum HDL cholesterol, and none had high triglycerides. Of raw food consumers, 38% were vitamin B-12 deficient, whereas 12% had an increased mean corpuscular volume (MCV). Plasma tHcy concentrations were correlated with plasma vitamin B-12 concentrations (r = -0.450, P < 0.001), but not with plasma folate. Plasma tHcy and MCV concentrations were higher in those in the lowest quintile of consumption of food of animal origin (P(trend) < 0.001). This study indicates that consumption of a strict raw food diet lowers plasma total cholesterol and triglyceride concentrations, but also lowers serum HDL cholesterol and increases tHcy concentrations due to vitamin B-12 deficiency.

Someone (a med student) posted this on another board and said that there is no proof that a raw food diet is more healthful in the long run.
I'm not sure how to respond... I probably won't... It's probably not worth it.

Do you need to supplement with B12 if you feel fine? They also said a vegan should be supplementing every day with B12...?

[vickiesltw]

Do you need to supplement with B12 if you feel fine? They also said a vegan should be supplementing every day with B12...?
What is b12 and why do we need it

[michigan roman]

to the med student i say look around america and see the results of the cooked food diet . all the over weight and diseased people . what other proof is needed that its wrong ? forget all the scientist talk , im not waiting for them to figure it out . im not listening anymore , im going on survival instincts . good day coco

[misslinda]

Typically whosever conducting/funding the studay, has great impact on the findings.

It seems the scapegoat phrase is "In longer term consumption" blah balhbalh a scare tactic to make people think raw foods are "potentially" hazardous.

I'm no scientists but I can tell you right now that I cannot live off of MSG,FD&C yellow #4, mice hairs in processed foods.

Coco did it make you concern?
:)

[Evelynn]

Did they compare this to anyone who eats cooked food? No? How convenient for them. People like that drive me nuts! It only lists one deficiency!
I'm sure those following a SAD diet have many, many deficiencies, and I'm willing to bet that more than 38% have them! Did they use people following the diet correctly, or did they pick vegans off the street (so to speak)? Were they fed organic food, or conventional food that was sprayed and scrubbed to death, thus removing any trace of B-12? I also believe they've admitted to being wrong about how much B-12 you really need--sort of like the protein issue. How old is the study?
I would ask who conducted this study and if there were any statistics regarding those who eat cooked food as opposed to raw.

[dreamrawalwz]

They also didn't say they were 100% raw did they or did I miss it somewhere?

[Gosia]

Not much. Read the article (in blue) below (also, some facts about B12 are at http://www.rawgosia.com/articles/sevenpoints.html).

Sincerely,
Gosia.




(From http://health.groups.yahoo.com/group/Rawschool/)

This post was on the livingnutrition board and I thought Dr. Vetrano's writing was very clear on the B12 issue.

Kim

Re: Nurtitional Yeast
Posted by: Dave Klein - Moderator (IP Logged)
Date: March 28, 2006 10:20AM

Hi Stephanie,

I was mistaken. Dr. Vetrano did write an article for me on B12 but I have not printed it. I reviewed the article and showed it to some other health scientists and concluded it is too brief to adequately get the point across. It's brief because I asked her for a brief article - my mistake. She knew that a longer aricle was needed with more thorough explanations of her points and I now agree that she is right. I will ask her to expand it. Below is the article. In case you don't know, Dr. (Vetrano) had been studying nutritional science and Natural Hygiene including the B12 issue for over 4 decades, and the past few years she has been working on a book on vegetarianism which will have a much larger discussion on B12, perhaps the most detailed one ever. She has been researching this issue like no one else I know of and she has the knowledge in bio-chemistry and physiology plus 45+ years of clinical experience to make her as much of an expert on this subject as anyone in the world. I trust her deducements above all others.

Dave

---------

Rethinking & Clarifying the B12 Issue
by Dr. Vivian V. Vetrano
[vetrano.cjb.net]

There is no such thing as a deficiency of vitamin B12, even in 100% raw vegans. They do not have to eat dirt, animal products, or take pills to secure coenzymes of B12. Bacteria in the intestinal tract make it for us, and the metabolically usable and necessary forms of coenzyme B12 are contained in unprocessed, fresh natural plant foods, particularly in nuts and seeds. The real problem in so-called B12 deficiency is a failure of digestion and absorption of foods, rather than a deficiency of the vitamin itself.

Vitamin B12 coenzymes are found in nuts and seeds as well as in many common greens, fruits, and many vegetables. If we ate 100 grams of green beans, beets, carrots, and peas we would have half of our so-called daily minimum requirement of Vitamin B12 coenzymes, provided that our digestion and absorption are normal. From Rodale's The Complete Book of Vitamins, page 236 we find the following clarification: “As you know, the B complex of vitamins is called a ‘complex’ because, instead of being one vitamin, it has turned out to be a large number of related vitamins, which appear generally in the same foods.”

A little publicized source of active Vitamin B12 coenzymes is from bacteria in the mouth, around the teeth, in the nasopharynx, around the tonsils and in the tonsilar crypts, in the folds at the base of the tongue, and in the upper bronchial tree. This source alone will supply sufficient quantities of Vitamin B12 coenzymes for the very small requirement of total vegetarians, especially considering that their needs for this vitamin are not as great as for those on conventional diets.

I have studied this issue thoroughly, and have learned that biochemists, neutraceutical scientists, and many writers mistakenly use the term Vitamin B12 for cyanocobalamin, which is not usable by the body but is included in all vitamin B12 supplements. When speaking of Vitamin B12 they are referring to the semisynthetic Vitamin B12 (cyanocobalamin) that initially was contaminated with poisonous cyanide during its chemical extraction from animal tissues. Carbon columns are used during the extraction process and the carbon combines with nitrogen from the medium forming the poisonous cyanocobalamin, that scientists insist on calling Vitamin B12. The original method used to extract Vitamin B12 from its sources included heating the medium in a weak acid, the addition of cyanide ion, and exposure to light. In this process the coenzymes were converted to cyanocobalamin, yet this was overlooked. (Review of Physiological Chemistry, Harper, Harold A., Lange Medical Publications, New York, 1977, page l81. Also refer to Cobalamin: Biochemistry and Pathophysiology, Wiley. N. and F. Sicuteri, New York, 1972.) Moreover, in the manufacture of vitamin supplements, cyanide is added to the medium because the carbon and nitrogen are needed to form large molecules as are found in vitamins; and, additionally, they need it to extract the B12 from fermentation liquors and liver homogenates. Carbon is needed in great quantities when making vitamins or any other manufactured vitamin or substance that mimics the natural vitamin that normally contains a lot of carbon.

The two Vitamin B12 coenzymes known to be metabolically active in mammalian tissues are 5-deoxyadenosylcobalamin and methylcobalamin (methyl-B12). When extracted in light, these two coenzymes undergo photolysis and are destroyed. Natural B12 is found solely in plants and animals, and that is the only form that can be called “coenzyme B12.”

If an animal or individual is given cyanocobalamin the body removes the cyanide because it is not usable as a coenzyme and it is toxic. Then the cobalt of the former cyanocobalamin can combine with other nontoxic substances and actually form Vitamin B12 coenzymes that are usable by the body. These normally existing Vitamin B12 coenzymes are labile and break down easily unless inside living tissue.

Potassium in the body can react with the cyanide found in cyanocobalamin – the “Vitamin B12” – and form toxic potassium cyanide (KCN). Potassium cyanide is a poisonous compound used as a fumigant. This is one reason why the body jettisons the “Vitamin B12” (i.e., cyanocobalamin) injections so rapidly. Within 24 hours most (about 90%) of the cyanocobalamin in supplements has been eliminated.

The names of cobalamins formed by the body or in a laboratory are: l. hydroxocobalamin if it combines with a hydroxyl ion (OH), and 2. aquocobalamin, when it combines with water. Cobalamin also combines with anions such as nitrite a form of nitrogen, chloride, and sulfur. These are not usable by the body. The two active coenzymes that can be formed in the body after stripping off the cyanide are 5’deoxyadenosylcobalamin, or adenosylcobalamin for short, and methylcobalamin. The problem is that the cyanide is toxic and makes many people sicker than they were before taking the supplement.

Cyanocobalamin is in every vitamin B12 supplement known because it is stable and less costly to manufacture. But it is not usable in the body. If the body has sufficient energy it may be able to offload the cyanide and benefit from the useful component. Mainly, what people experience after taking cyanocobalamin supplements is stimulation. The toxic effect of the cyanide triggers a rush of energy as the body works hard to excrete the poison, and this fools people into believing that the supplement has “worked” to heal them. Meanwhile, if their blood tests show an increase in B12, it mainly reflects the amount of the cyanocobalamin in the blood stream. The usable forms are carried into the cells and can’t be discovered by testing the blood as is the current practice. Blood tests are often inaccurate and, as previously stated, in the case of cyanocobalamin supplementation and B12 injections, about 90 % of it has been eliminated from the body in 24 hours.

Looking at it Hygienically, no Vitamin B12 therapy can cause a recovery from any so-called deficiency disease. It may only hide the symptoms and cannot promote health. When people report that their apparent B12 deficiency symptoms have been relieved by cyanocobalamin supplementation, they are mistaken. They are not getting usable Vitamin B12 coenzymes, and their bodies are forced to convert the cyanide form into the active forms, methylcobalamin, and adenosylcobalamin. This extra function stimulates but wastes nerve energy, and they are are actually getting worse, not better. They have not addressed the cause of their troubles.

In summary, vegans and raw fooders all have sufficient amounts of coenzyme B12 in their diets, and from that produced in their bodies. The most common basic cause of a natural cobalamin deficiency is a failure to digest, absorb and utilize the various cobalamins from food and from the intestinal tract as in the case of gastritis or gastroenteritis. The cause of malabsorption is commonly a gastrointestinal disorder and this was known by pathologists way back in the l800s. In this case, one's lifestyle must be assessed and brought into unison with the needs of the living organism. Furthermore, absorption of the natural B12 coenzymes can take place in the mouth, throat, esophagus, bronchial tubes and even in the upper small intestines, as well as all along the intestinal tract. This does not involve the complex enzyme mechanism for absorption (intrinsic factor) in the small intestine as required by cyanocobalamin. The coenzymes are absorbed by diffusion through mucous membranes.