Milk and cheese (and honey)

[Grible4]

I recently started on the raw food diet and have heard so many bad things about milk. I know all about the hormones, pasturization and homoginization. All the information I have read on the raw food diet tell you to stay far from all dairy. Is dairy in itself bad, or is it the pasturization and homoginization (which I know releases toxins as the milk fats break up)? I am lactose intolerant, so it may seem weird for me to ask this question, but I eat a lot of raw (unhomoginized) milk and cheese. I am extremely fortunate to live down the street from a raw dairy farm- they use no hormones, the cows are all pasture fed, free roaming (within safe fences, of course) and they are very very clean. The farm beleives in heating nothing above 100 degrees F and does not homoginize. Raw cow milk is usualy digestible by lactose intolerant people and I have found no problem whatsoever eating the raw milk and cheese. Is this a no-no for a raw diet?
Also, I have found a lot of raw honey, but only one kind has the propolis in it. Where does the propolis come from, and is it only taken out for texture reasons?

[Rawkinlocs]

Hi Grible4 and welcome to the forum.

Well, the thing is, this is a raw vegan discussion forum, so we do not support nor advocate the consumption of raw animal products (meat, dairy or eggs).

It's not that it's a "no-no" in the raw diet, but it just depends on the type of raw diet you're on. There are some who do the "paleo" diet where they consume raw animal products, but again, we don't support that here on this particular forum, though some who post here may consume said products...we just don't get into that discussion here (please see our Mission Statement).

Now, I know I said that this is raw vegan site, but there are also those here who consume raw honey and there has been discussion about this here in the past. So, some have labelled us raw "beegan" (those who consume honey but no other animal products).

I don't know the answer to your question about the honey...I'm sure someone will come along who does, though. But as for the question about raw dairy, you might want to consult a raw board where consuming that is widely accepted. Also, check out Carol Alt's book as she advocates consuming raw animal products in her raw diet.

You might also want to view http://notmilk.com for more on dairy and why it's not particulary the most optimal thing for humans to consume regardless to whether it's pasturized or not.

[Grible4]

Thank you for the links. Most of the raw food information I have found has been vegan, and it has been the most helpful to me in the transition to raw. I understand the reasoning behind not eating dairy, but it may take me awhile to determine the best way for me to go raw, I suppose. My body may tell me later to stop eating it, and that will be all right with me (I was basically vegan for about two years, except for honey, due to lactose intollerance). I would never eat meat or any animal by-product I feel has been produced in a way as to adversly affect the animal.
A strang thing has happened, though. I used to eat eggs (very rarely), and I started to at first (raw eggs were never a problem for me) but I have stopped craving them and they even seem yucky to me when I think of them. I think this is my body saying that eggs aren't what I should be eating; I don't need them. I don't think I will miss them....

[purtyflowrr]

you should definitely read The China Study. it will completely change your perspective on milk and animal products. i know i will never look at it in the same way.

[juliebove]

I used to think I was lactose intolerant. I knew milk made me sick. But I didn't think that cheese did. I've been on a variety of diets over the years. Up until recently I was eating cheese. Gave up eggs after my daughter was diagnosed with food allergies, one of which was eggs. I had some occasional egg in things like mayo or pasta from a restaurant. Then I made the mistake of eating some purchased egg salad. Got really sick 16 hours later. Felt better. Ate more of the egg salad. Was violently ill 1/2 an hour later. Then stupidly, I did the exact same thing about a month later. Vowed from then on never to touch another egg. Oddly, I had been having an aversion to eggs prior to eating them. But for some reason, the thought of them sounded good. I then began having an aversion to all dairy. I'd try to eat cheese but would find myself spitting it out after one or two bites.

I then went in for a RAST test. Figured since my daughter and mom both had food allergies, I was bound to have them. Bingo! Severe egg allergy and also allergic to dairy and almonds. Listen to your body. If it's telling you not to eat something, there's probably a reason!

[karenisraw]

From my RVD's point of view, not only are the hormones and such bad for you, but you simply do not need dairy. I have heard that dairy can cause bone loss, but I am not sure if it is the dairy itself or the hormones etc. I also heard and I am not sure about this, that the calfs are taken away from the mothers at a young age so the milk can be harvested for human consumption.

I think that may be one reason why raw vegans don't drink milk or eat dairy.

Here is an article about why you don't need milk and the detriments of milk on the body.
http://www.ecopolitan.com/newsletter-articles/strong-bones

Here is an article about raw foodist's bones study (positive)
http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=12025

Personally, I have rarely in my whole life eaten any dairy products except for yogurt. Never drank milk, never ate cheese (rarely)

K

[Revvell]

I would never eat meat or any animal by-product I feel has been produced in a way as to adversly affect the animal.

So, who or what is more important... You, or the animal? You say you are lactose intolerant yet you eat a lot of dairy and " I am extremely fortunate to live down the street from a raw dairy "?

Personally, I start with me, first... meaning, take care of me and the rest (the animals, the environment) are helped as well. Why are you subjecting YOUR body to something it is intolerant of?

Revvell

[firefaery]

Human beings of your age are meant to be lactose intolerant. From a biological perpective we stop producing lactase (the enzyme needed to break down lactose) at around 4 years-the natural age of weaning. OF course of you were given milk without a break you would still produce it...but after any time away from dairy you would notice a BIG change as your body would promptly cease production.

The best information I have in terms of not consuming dairy is this: cow's milk was designed by nature for an animal that is meant to grow to weigh 2000 pounds in it's first year. Their brains are quite small in comparison. What exactly can the result be when a human drinks the milk? Rapid growth of cells that leads to to rapid growth of abnormal cells (cancer.) This is besides the fact that the hormones, fat and cholesterol content are completely inappropriate for the human body. Not to mention that toxins are stored in fat. So even of you are buying organic, raw milk, you are getting a large amount of toxins. That is the big benefit of eating lower on the food chain.

[RowanC]

We are brainwashed from birth:

"Milk does a body GOOD!"

Do you know that when I was a girl it was VERY common to see advertisements for cigarettes telling you how HEALTHY it was to smoke?

On the other hand, you NEVER would have seen a television ad for feminine hygiene products, underwear, attorneys, or drugs.

At what point did we arrive to the place where it was NECESSARY to purchase those products anyway? What did women do for thousands of years before tampax began selling their pesticide-soaked cotton plugs and talked us into shoving them up into places where the skin was most likely to absorb those toxins? I'll tell you what they did.... THEY (the women) had convinced the men that being around a bleeding woman was taboo... that she'd better not cook your food, or clean your house, or step over your plate or you'd DIE! Instead, she'd better go out to the menstrual hut to be with the other women of the community (who were all bleeding together, by the way) where she could visit, laugh, take a break from the drudgery, do sacred women's mysteries and rituals, and reconnect with the Earth or "reground."

Then... we got civilized. Too bad.

WHY do I have to wear a bra that constricts the flow of lymph and causes breast cancer?

WHY do I have to wear pointy shoes that cause me to have painful hammer-toe when I'm 80?

WHY do I have to wear makeup on my face - makeup full of toxic chemicals that cause brain fog, headaches, rashes, liver and kidney damage. Hey.. this one's nothing new. Women for centuries died from the lead and mercury in their powder. They dropped belladonna in their eyes to make their pupils larger... all in the name of vanity.

WHY do I have to have a new set of clothes every 18 months out of fear I'll be unfashionable? Who do you think is benefiting from THAT idea? Me? Or the fashion industry?

WHY do we train our daughters and sons to be just like Pavlov's dogs and perform whenever these advertisements bark their orders?

We say we are free. But we're not.
We are slaves.
We are willing slaves, which is worse.
We don't even KNOW we're slaves, which is even more terrible.
We just walk to the slaughter and say, "baaaaaaa..."

At some point, society hopefully will awaken from the nightmare they insist on dreaming and realize that advertisement... ALL advertisement, is about MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. Money is what makes your favorite program happen on television. Money is why you have to turn 12 pages of advertisement to find one article to read in a magazine. Money even influences the scripts themselves.

You want to stop this craziness?
Hit them where it hurts.. in the pocketbook.

Boycott their products and don't purchase their advertisements.
If a magazine is nothing but advertisements for products that are toxic, unneccessary, and lies, then write the magazine and tell them to cancel your subscription and tell them why. If you're weary of the pharmaceutical companies telling you to "ask your doctor!" about this drug and that drug... turn the damned thing off.

And stop buying thing you don't need, for goodness sakes.
Think of what you could do with the money you saved.

3 years ago I went to Europe for a three month trip. It cost me under $1,000 per month, less than $3,000 total. I went to Amsterdam, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, France, Portugal, Spain, Ireland, and Wales. I got a 3 month unlimited rail pass from Rick Steves and I found lodging in each city simply by walking up the street and seeing signs that said, "rooms" in various languages. I never paid over $25 or $30 for a room. In Cinque Terra, Italy you can get a whole apartment for $250 a week! I ate what the locals ate and picnics were common. It was an incredible trip. And you know what? I do it about every 3 or 4 years. And my total income per month is rarely over $500.

How do I do it?
I don't buy anything new except underwear and shoes.
EVERYTHING else comes from yard sales and goodwill.
We live in a disposable society. People believe they need a new coffee pot every year. So I have a running list of things I need, and when spring comes (It's here TODAY! YAY!) I go yardsaling every weekend. I buy books and resell them. I look for things on my list. I never pay more than 10 cents on the dollar and I have all the "things" that everyone else has.

And with all the cash I save, I travel.

I would challenge you all to start really thinking hard before you make the next purchase. Do you really NEED this thing or has someone just convinced you that it will bring you happiness? Will it REALLY bring you lasting happiness, or just fleeting happiness at the excitement of spending... only to get home and wonder why you did it? Can you live without the thing? How often will you honestly use it? Will it really save you time or will you have to work HOURS and HOURS to pay for the "time-saving" device?

This is a big one for me. I bought one of those chopper doohickeys and used it exactly once. That's all it took for me to realize I could achieve the same affect with a sharp knife and then just wipe it clean with a dishrag instead of having to take the danged thing all apart, wash it, dry it, put it together. It didn't save time at ALL!!! It took MORE time! And for the price of it, I could have bought more organic produce, which would have REALLY made me happier and healthier.

Ok. this is getting too long. I'll step off my soapbox. But this hit a nerve.

We, as a people, have GOT to wake up and stop spending, spending, spending. IT's just MADNESS!

[firefaery]

Oh, and you don't have a problem because raw milk still contains lactase, and most cheeses are ages and don't have lactose at all. You still need to consider the health problems associated with drinking a non-species specific milk.

[Rawmommie]

RowanC, what an amazing post!

[Fragola]

RowanC
I LOVED your post!!!
I like it "simple" too, and people always think I am a boring person :rolleyes:
By the way, could you pass some info about the cheap places you've found in Italy and in Europe?
It might be very useful!! :)

[firefaery]

Sorry, I can't string two thoughts together! Propolis is what the bees use to seal up their hives. It is very good for you, antifungal, animicrobial, anti-inflammatory, you name it. Yes, it is usually taken out to achieve a clarity in the honey. Most people don't like the chunks. We raise bees and always leave it in unless otherwise ordered. It is a different method of extraction when you are leaving it out.