I made the 30 days...then...

[Purl]

I got in a bad mood and didn't get enough sleep last night and BAM!!!I ate MEAT and POPCORN!!! Uggghhhh! I feel so GROSS!!!! I'm not too down, I mean, I'm being a little nicer to myself than usu. and I'm back on raw, but WHAT WAS I THINKING???? I'm going to challenge myself to 60 days starting today.

***WHY*** do we binge? It's so confusing. :(

[JinxieKat]

Purl,
It has been soo interesting watching your posts since we started the challenge at about the same time. I think it is just human nature to 'test the waters' so to speak. I did the same blasted thing this weekend. I was tired, hungry, and I wanted, of all things, McDonalds. So Saturday night I had McDonalds. I'm _still_ suffering from the aftermath today. UGH, I feel awful. I can say one thing, it was not worth it! I'm chalking it up to a learning experience and am moving on. Or trying to anyway. I almost feel like I'm back at the begining of the 30 days. I'm so hungry today it is silly, yet I feel so yuck I don't want to eat. I haven't figured that puzzle out yet. Bleh!

Jinx

[Lynnz]

We eat SAD because SAD is addictive. For me, it's not confusing so much as frustrating.

I am finding that I am much more at peace as a newbie with a goal that's less than 100%. When your goal is 100% (perfection), even the tiniest slip-up equals failure. I want to be very near 100%, but I am ok with less than that for now.

Think about the compassion you would have for a child who is trying to do better, and have that compassion for yourself.

[English Tracy]

If we had all started life on a raw diet, we would not have these cravings for the bad things which make up the SAD or poor UK diet and lifestyle.

I never stop craving things that I KNOW are bad for me. It's 40 years of conditioning which is not going to go away overnight.

All I can say is I sympathise, and I'm sure lots of other people who post here do. Falling off the plan does not make us bad people, just human with all the failings that being human brings with it.

Put the 'blip' behind you and move on. (So easy to say, I know!!)

Best wishes,

Tracy

[theresaann]

man, it don't take a cheese burger to feel like crap. This weekend my daughter wanted lebanese food, so I had hummus, 1/2 of a cooked grape leaf and one falafel, plus a lot of lettuce. Not much, you'd think, right? Man, I felt like CRAP. I could actually feel my white blood cells going into an alarm reaction all over my body. Learnt my lesson, I did....

now when i get cravings, I just imagine how I would feel after I eat whatever it is I'm thinking about, and after my experience this weekend, it totally cures the cravings, immediately. It works! Went out to restaurant with family last night-they are all eating stuff I would've LOVED before raw, and I just looked at all the unhealthy, overweight, bloated people in the restaurant and reminded myself how I would feel if I ate any of that food, and I was totally content with my salad. It was a great feeling.

[levamssg]

I hear many folks say they cave in to SAD and just don't know why they do it. Congrats in that you were able to identify WHY you ate the stuff!! --- Being Tired! So pat yourself on the back for the insight. This will help you be more vigilant about the situations you put yourself in with regards to wanting non-raw food.

From experience, I noticed the same thing ... cravings were harder to deal with when I was tired -- and if I allowed myself to get really starving hungry AND tired -- definitely not a good place to be. Right JinxieKat??

So, take your newfound knowledge about yourself and continue to be raw. Sounds like you're both doing a great job of it!

[JinxieKat]

From experience, I noticed the same thing ... cravings were harder to deal with when I was tired -- and if I allowed myself to get really starving hungry AND tired -- definitely not a good place to be. Right JinxieKat??



NoooOoO not a good place to be! I do know better :rolleyes: , I delt with it a few times durning my challenge successfully, but just not this time. I see my husband doing it all the time and he is so much worse than I am about it, he will litterlly just start shaking and getting faint. At least I don't get that bad. Ugh!

Jinx

[Shivananda]

We eat SAD because SAD is addictive. .

No, I disagree. While I know this is a popular way to talk about food, I really wish folks would completely stop saying this. Its not only inaccurate scientifically, but it puts the responsibility in the wrong place, like the meat somehow made her eat it. Nope, that didn't happen. She chose to eat the meat for a reason, and if she grapples with the reason why she made that choice I think she'll have more access to altering her behaviour than she'll ever get saying she is powerless before food.

And I think breaking out like this is more likely to be a sign of boredom with the raw choices you are giving yourself than anything else.

My second point is that committing to Excellence is empowering, while committing to Perfection is ultimately disempowering. Why? Because Excellence is actually attainable, while Perfection never is, so trying to attain it only causes pain.

[Lynnz]

No, I disagree. While I know this is a popular way to talk about food, I really wish folks would completely stop saying this. Its not only inaccurate scientifically, but it puts the responsibility in the wrong place, like the meat somehow made her eat it. Nope, that didn't happen. She chose to eat the meat for a reason, and if she grapples with the reason why she made that choice

I don't think that saying something is addicting negates the choice in the matter. Of course she chose to eat it. Smokers choose to smoke and drinkers choose to drink. (And the fact that they can CHOOSE to stop just proves the point, despite addiction-industry dogma.)
Still, I believe these substances, and cooked foods, are habituating.

(As do you, apparently, per your statement that chocolate is addictive!)

[kmik]

No, I disagree. While I know this is a popular way to talk about food, I really wish folks would completely stop saying this. Its not only inaccurate scientifically, but it puts the responsibility in the wrong place, like the meat somehow made her eat it. Nope, that didn't happen. She chose to eat the meat for a reason, and if she grapples with the reason why she made that choice I think she'll have more access to altering her behaviour than she'll ever get saying she is powerless before food.

I'm guessing you've never experienced an addiction. Based on my personal experience, cooked food IS an addiction. When it controls your every thought, when you plan and plot how to sneak through a drive through when you're out "running errands," when you hide your behavior from your loved ones, when you eat and eat and eat and still don't feel satisfied, and so on and so on. These are the behaviors of an addict. My behavior changed completely on raw. I no longer sneak food. Raw food broke my addiction (to a point of course... I'm still an addict, and if I succumb, I go down big time, not just a little bite. I'm like a crack addict, I've gotta stay away from it at all cost!).

And when did WE start basing our food choices on science? I can show you 1000 scientific studies that say how healthy beef, pork, chicken and dairy are for us!

My thought is, if someone eats cooked food when they really don't WANT to, it's becuase they're addicted. I've heard people say if you over-eat it's because you have "issues" but once I went raw, I realized cooked food was my "issue!"

[Raw Jewelrylady]

Well said-KMIK..I know the sneaking, planning, the whole bit. It is addicting-but does get better with time & with a satisfying Raw diet.

To be successful in Raw-I have found that it helps to find some really great raw recipes-& always have your favorites on hand.

You also need to learn to listen to what your body is really craving-salt/sweet/fat..etc.

We all play the mind games-esp women-sorry Guys -but I do believe we get addicted to things in a different way (emotionally, physically & even hormonally.) In fact-studies have shown that during certain "cycles" when we crave chocolate-we really do NEED it...LOL

Lana

[purtyflowrr]

have you ever read "12 steps to overcoming cooked food" by victoria boutenko? it's soooo good. definitely made me think of cooked food as an addiction. if it's not, why do we crave it? i definitely think it's an addiction.

[Raw Jewelrylady]

Love that book-very inspiring & eye opening.

Lana

[dreamrawalwz]

I think cooked food IS addictive just like alcohol and drugs. I know from personal experiance. Sneaking, planning, lying, hoarding food all to get my fix from the high it gives me. That was cooked food. I'm still dealing with this issue on NONE organic food because the pesticides become addictdive for me as well. I think if you havn't been an addict to something you wouldn't understand, no offense, just fact!

[Shivananda]

I think if you havn't been an addict to something you wouldn't understand, no offense, just fact! And I sincerely respond that if you had ever been addicted to heroin, or had ever known someone who was, you'd never, ever say that people's urges to eat cooked food were anywhere near being in the same league as heroin withdrawal, sorry.

A second significant point is that real addictions have very poor recovery rates, under the best of conditions. Although no official figures are available, informed sources estimate that actual success rate of AA is about 10%, and it is widely considered to have the best success rate of the various 12 Step Programs. I personally believe that the Living on Live Food way, if followed committedly, will work for at least 90% of those who try it. So evoking a drug recovery model actually inhibits this work from appearing as good as it can be.

Third, as I mentioned before, calling food addictive puts the responsibility in the wrong place, and allows people to shirk the work they need to do to stay raw. "The hot dog MADE me eat it!!!" Yeah, yeah, yeah. Blah, blah, blah. All I care about is why you chose to do that instead of doing what you committed to.

Fourth, it makes the wrong associations around raw food in the outside world, in the mainstream community. Tell a bunch of people at a church dinner that cooked food is an addiction and they'll all look at you like you're a nut and stop listening to anything you say. But tell them that live food is energizing and healing and you've got a chance to talk. So the addiction model is not a conversation that is ultimately empowering to the cause of raw food.

Fifth, as I've said before, when you make something wrong you add mass to it. We should be talking about what is right about raw food, not what is wrong with cooked food, because the latter just makes it persist.

[rawpriestess]

Please check out this post by Alissa, I think it says it all

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=452

[Shivananda]

Thanks for posting that RP. I agree completely. What attracted me to Alissa's approach in the first place is that it seemed so much more fun and so much more reasonable and so much more "normal" than all the rigid, wacky approaches of all the raw food crazies I had run into along the way.

And I think that the majority of people's issues that are posted about here would go away if they simply read that post and followed its advice. I think it should be required reading around here. Often! :)

And as for the phrase "Just make it fun!" maybe it should be on the opening screen.

Amen! Amen! Do I hear an amen?!?

[kmik]

And I sincerely respond that if you had ever been addicted to heroin, or had ever known someone who was, you'd never, ever say that people's urges to eat cooked food were anywhere near being in the same league as heroin withdrawal, sorry.


we didn't say it's in the same league, just that it IS an addiction, and for some of us, it feels as desparate as a drug addiction. Just as nicotine is an addiction, but again, "not in the same league." However my cooked addiction was for me life-threatening, because it lead to morbid obesity. Why would that be less impacting than a heroin addiction? Other than the fact that heroin may be a little faster at bringing on someone's demise.

Webster defines addiction as: compulsive need for and use of a habit-forming substance (as heroin, nicotine, or alcohol) characterized by tolerance and by well-defined physiological symptoms upon withdrawal; broadly : persistent compulsive use of a substance known by the user to be harmful

Those of us that can eat a whole large pizza hoping to feel "satisfied" know that the tolerance factor is there. And detox is withdrawal... headaches, flu-like symptoms, crazy dreams. Why would those conditions exist if we weren't going through withdrawals?


I personally believe that the Living on Live Food way, if followed committedly, will work for at least 90% of those who try it.


Your optimistic opinion that I wish was on, though no numbers are out there. And I personally believe that any addiction recovery program will work 100% of the time for those that are 100% commited.


calling food addictive puts the responsibility in the wrong place


only for those not 100% commited.


Tell a bunch of people at a church dinner that cooked food is an addiction and they'll all look at you like you're a nut and stop listening to anything you say. But tell them that live food is energizing and healing and you've got a chance to talk.

I agree 50% here... that's because I've found that if you tell any group that cooked is addictive, half will nod their heads and say "ah, that explains it." and the other half will look at you crosseyed. Tell the same group that live food is energizing and healing and half will say "that's what I'm looking for!" and the other half will shirk back and think to themselves "But I could never give up pizza."


We should be talking about what is right about raw food


I agree 100% here, although non-raw people need a starting reference point, something they can relate to. You'll notice that several people responded that they related to cooked food as an addiction.

I'm not disagreeing with your approach, Shivananda, because there are several people that will relate to you. But I am saying that you can't catagorically say your approach is the way all should see it, because there're many people's lives you can touch and help if you show a little compassion, and understand that cooked food IS their addiction, and they DESPERATELY need someone to take their hand and help them out. Please be there for them too.

(btw, yes, AMEN to Alissa's wisdom, her approach has helped many in both camps!)

[Shivananda]

Hi Kmik,

Thanks for wrestling with what I said. I think a healthy debate benefits everyone. Get it? Healthy debate? :)

To me, Webster's definition of addiction is wholly inadequate, and only serves to empower a simplistic, pop science, psychobabble use of the word. According to that particular definition everyone probably has multiple addictions. But that weeny sense of addiction, which some have actually promoted in the culture, merely diminishes understanding of the extraordinary power of the spiral of true chemical addictions, which includes increasing tolerance, in which ever increasing doses are required, ultimately to the point of death.

I posted a more fleshed out and meaningful definition and discussion of the term earlier today on this thread: http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5780

And your numbers for recovery are unrealistic and totally unsupported by known facts. Although the AA aproach has the best track record for dealing with a chemical dependency of anything going, even stalwart supporters will tell you that the success rate is low. It's just better than anything else so far. I stand behind my 10% success rate figure. Addictive chemicals can mop the floor with people's commitments.

On the other hand psychological "addictions" or habituations like compulsive eating respond extremely well to cognitive therapy, to name one much more effective modality than 12 Stepping it. In other words, identifying food compulsions as addictions can actually send people down the wrong healing path and interfere with them getting better.

And finally, while I can get that some people find "food addiction" to be a useful metaphor for them, I don't get that it is nearly as useful or even as accurate to say "cooked" is addictive but "raw" is not. Sorry, I've read just as many posts here about people binging on raw as on cooked. It's FOOD they are binging on, not the cooked/not cooked factor. And a simple thought experiment illustrates my key point here... I walk into a room and see before me a lovely plate of artfully prepared raw foods, and a bowl of hot gray gruel. If your theory is correct, I should head for the gruel, because it is cooked. But I don't. I pick what is interesting and appetising and appealing to me.

But even more than that, I have to emphasize that far, far more "normal" people, not just people with food issues or health concerns, will ultimately be interested in trying this food on its merits than ever will be scared into it by attacking its opposite. Tell them it will make them look younger and feel better and they will pay attention.

And beside, one slice of my raw pizza knocks out the concerns of those who think they'll have to give something up.

[kmik]

I don't think there will be a "winner" in this debate, but I can't resist responding :p There's no way on God's green earth a scientific thinker and a visionary thinker will agree ;)


And your numbers for recovery are unrealistic and totally unsupported by known facts.
How discouraging this is! Maybe I should have said 100% commited with 100% persistance. If those who "fail" keep getting up and trying again, they stand a better chance of succeeding. I know I personally have "failed" at raw many times, and knowing what you said, I could easily have rationalized that I'm one of the ones that is not destined to be raw and healthy. Any human spirit can overcome any addiction with the right determination, support and direction. THANK GOD we can overcome "supported" facts. It' called "beating the odds," and anyone can do it.



I walk into a room and see before me a lovely plate of artfully prepared raw foods, and a bowl of hot gray gruel. If your theory is correct, I should head for the gruel, because it is cooked. But I don't.
Ah, welcome to my world. How fortunate for you that this has never been the case. Without fail, I would go for the cooked food, leaving beautiful salads and fresh fruit behind.


far, far more "normal" people, not just people with food issues or health concerns, will ultimately be interested in trying this food on its merits than ever will be scared into it by attacking its opposite. Tell them it will make them look younger and feel better and they will pay attention.
look out your window... how many "normal" people do you see? A quickly diminishing proportion. Many people are obese because of their food addictions, not because they "choose" to be. Everyone's promising them a pill or a new book that guarantees they will look younger and feel better. Tell THEM that you have a way for them to break free of their hell, to be liberated and no longer have their lives controlled by food. That's when THEY will pay attention.

Again, I agree that your approach is right for many people, but I feel that food addiction is a relatively new phenomenon, unsupported as yet, by scientific studies, but real non-the-less.

I know my addiction was chemical, because raw food does not play the same roll in my life as cooked food did. My "emotional dependancy" went away when I became raw. My raw food cravings have become my body's way of telling me that I need a nutrient in a certain food, rather than a way of getting me to consume large quantities of substances void of most any nutritional component. I know this because I can eat what raw food I crave and become instantly satisfied, as opposed to eating excessively large amounts of what I craved that was cooked, only to move on to something else, hoping I would find satisfaction somehow, but never feeling it, although my belly was stretched beyond compare.

Different people have different truths and realities. This one's mine, and yours suits you. :) Remember, at one time all studies indicated the earth was flat and the sun revolved around it.

[Shivananda]

I don't think there will be a "winner" in this debate, but I can't resist responding :p There's no way on God's green earth a scientific thinker and a visionary thinker will agree ;).
Really? You're a scientist Kmik? I didn't realize that! Wow! So I guess you must have thought I was a real wacko when I posted earlier that I dowse for the right supplements with a pendulum!

>>How discouraging this is! Maybe I should have said 100% commited with 100% persistance. If those who "fail" keep getting up and trying again, they stand a better chance of succeeding.

No, look, here's my fundamental argument with the whole addiction/recovery approach to this. Addiction theory says that once you are an addict you will always be an addict, and always be in recovery. There is no such thing as a cure, just managing the addiction and "getting better." So it's a cell with no exit.

But as one of my mentors used to say, there is a limited payoff in getting better inside the current reality. The path to transformation involves stepping into a new reality, one in which your previous addictions play no role.

Or at least that is one way to describe it. But as another poster said on a similar thread, it actually is possible to just put these things down and walk away from them and never think about them again. I've experienced that exactly.

I do wish you the best, and every strength you need to do what you think best for you. If I can help you in any way, with my uncommon psychic/intuitive scientific approach, please feel free to call on me at any time.

[kmik]

LOL Shivananda! (Can I call you Bob?) Please don't accuse me, even in jest, of having a scientific brain! Just the thought is overwhelming!

I like the advice of stepping in to a new reality. Addiction or not, that's a good way to look at it.

I missed the dowsing post... I thought that pendulum trick only worked for finding out babies' sex during pregnancy.

hmmm, just realized you have the same birthday as my older brother. I've not had a good "debate" with him in several years since he moved out of the country. Perhaps that explains a few things.

[Raw Jewelrylady]

Shivananda & Kmik-Wow..Great debate-& very thought provoking.

RawPriestass-thanks a bunch for posting Alissa's thread. Everyone should read it & then print it up & put up somewhere to see EVERYDAY. :D

Raw has to be fun, no obsessing, & a variety of foods-or you will end up at a fast food joint.

Lana

[Shivananda]

LOL Shivananda! (Can I call you Bob?) .Sure, fine, if you like. But Steve is at least over in the right sound garden.

>>I missed the dowsing post... I thought that pendulum trick only worked for finding out babies' sex during pregnancy.

Trick? This is no trick. You arrange your choices... foods, supplements, pictures, names, whatever, then ask for the pendulum to point to that choice which best serves your highest purpose. I find that a dozen choices to pick from does not "fog up" the pendulum, although it would surely send my conscious mind into a tizzy, trying to find the "right" answer.

>>hmmm, just realized you have the same birthday as my older brother. I've not had a good "debate" with him in several years since he moved out of the country. Perhaps that explains a few things.

Pehaps you would like to send me your birthday present to him, as a kind of proxy?

[swingbolder]

I agree cooked food can be an addiction, and I personally have known two people (one an ex-boyfriend, one a very good friend) who got hooked on heroin. Saw them get hooked, saw them on it, saw them kick it in rehab, then went to NA meetings with them to lend my support.

In fact, it was while watching "Panic in Needle Park" (an old Al Pacino movie from the 70s about NYC heroin addicts) a few months ago that I started to really see similarities btwn. cooked food addiction and heroin addiction. Your body goes through withdrawal when you kick heroin and when you give up cooked food. Heroin numbs you down, so does cooked food. One bit of cooked food can make you binge out and go off raw for a long long time, ditto with heroin. Both can lead to death.

When I went through a cooked-food phase last year, for several months, I thought of myself as being "on cooked" just like heroin addicts refer to themselves as being "on it." Off raw, on raw, I found the whole thing very interesting.

But I agree that the addiction model is not one that's going to win us too many converts. Better to focus on the better health, the clear skin, etc.

[kmik]

Shivananda... you look more like a Bob to me :)

What a big heart you have, to be willing to stand in like that for him! I'm getting him a new juicer this year, I hear Walmart has a real good one on sale for $29.95... what's your address?