Flouride...again...and lycopene question

[mommamia]

I've read as much as possible on this subject and teeth in general. I know I haven't read it all. I don't think flouride is naturally occuring, right? If it is, where? (I think I read somewhere I have to chew on rocks? :o )

Meanwhile, I basically use my tooth soap, try to floss, eat celery or rinse after fruit smoothies or fruit in general. After any dehydrated foods (not often) I rinse or eat celery. Any other thoughts on how to protect the teeth or how to "substitute" flouride?

Concerning lycopene. I had a friend mention this amino acid (right?) found in cooked (only) tomatoes. She mentioned that it is particularly helpful w/prostate issues. I did a search and found some but not a lot of info on it. If anyone has input or thoughts on how to get lycopene w/out cooking or info in general I would be interested. Also prostate health in general as prostate cancer runs in my husbands family.

Thanks so much!

[Revvell]

First of all, flouride does not protect teeth. It is naturally occuring in most water sources yet, certain folk think it's supposed to be added ~ the "more is better" crowd. From my readings, flouride "may" slow down the decay process yet, does not prevent it and adding more to water, toothpaste, etc. creates a toxic condition.

My understanding about prostate is to eat foods containing zinc.

Personally, I don't concern myself with all these issues. Eating a variety of raw foods, brushing, flossing, rinsing, etc. I could spend all day every day looking at this "issue" and that "issue" and even creating issues. what about candida? how about diabetes? Cholestrol? breast cancer? Sheesh! I'd drive myself nutz! I eat as well as I can; a variety of raw fruits, veggies, seeds and nuts and let nature work her wonders.

As far as something "running" in the family, usually that occurs because people eat what their family eats or does what their family does. My suggestion ~ focus on health, not disease. Eat well, do conscious movement (qigong/taiji) and enjoy life and most of all ~ play with your food. :)

Revvell

[Sheryl]

Lycopene is naturally occuring... look for red (tomato, watermelon) and you're seeing lycopene.

The myth is that cooked tomatoes test higher in lycopene than raw tomatoes. It's a myth. Blended tomatoes test as high as cooked tomatoes too, so it's really just a factor of how small the particles are when they test. Blending won't magically create lycopene, but does cause it to test higher. If you're chewing your tomatoes, or eating watermelon (it has 150% more lycopene of cooked tomato) then you're fine!!

We researched this well last year when every raw food article we saw in popular media brought out the 'cooked releases more nutrients' argument with lycopene. I love knowing watermelon has even more!!!

Cheers,
Sheryl

[Arky]

Red grapefruit is another great source of Lycopene and also contains substances beneficial for the cardiovascular system (stengthens capillary walls).


J.

[Shivananda]

I don't think flouride is naturally occuring, right?

Yes, it is naturally occurring in some water supplies. Matter of fact, that's how they initially found out that fluoride helps reduce tooth decay, because people living in areas where the natural fluoride level was high had fewer cavities than the general population. After a lot of research, they found a way to reproduce that protection artificially.

[Shivananda]

>>Lycopene is naturally occuring... look for red (tomato, watermelon) and you're seeing lycopene.

Gee, and I thought that red color was from iodine... I mean, that's what someone else here said... :)

Here's a reference chart I found on HerbalGram:

Table 1: Lycopene content of common foods
Food Type Amount mg per 100 gr.
Guava Fresh, pink 5.4
Tomatoes Fresh, red 3.1-7.7
Tomato Juice 7.83
Tomato Paste 30.07
Grapefruit Fresh, pink 3.36
Watermelon Fresh, red 4.1
Ketchup 16.6
Pizza sauce 32.9
Spaghetti sauce 17.5
Papaya Fresh, red 2.0-5.3

and also strawberries, though they weren't included here.

>>The myth is that cooked tomatoes test higher in lycopene than raw tomatoes. It's a myth.

OK, I'm open to what you are asserting here, Sheryl, because this is a residual concern I personally have about AllRawAllTheTime... so, where's the proof this is a myth? I mean, I can find scientific studies all over the place that say the opposite, that lycopene is more bioavailable in cooked tomatoes than in any raw food, but I have not seen anything at all to suggest what you're saying is true. Where is it?

[Arky]

Flouride, as it relates to deliberate flouridation of municipal water supplies, is a toxic byproduct of industry. How useful for industries producing this toxin to be able to not only dispose of it for free, but actually be paid by water companies for their toxic waste! There are forces at work in this world which care far more for self-serving interests than they do for public health, so don't be fooled by the B$ rhetoric the public is fed by government and media! ;)

More on flouride in this old thread:

http://www.rawfoodtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4917


J.

[Sheryl]

Raw tomatoes at one level, cooked at another. They did another study where they compared BLENDED tomatoes and they were the same as cooked and basically showed that the cooked tomatoes belief was a belief only and not substantiated. You still read it everywhere though; like many things once proven, then disproven quietly without fanfare (Ie most of Europe has stopped adding fluoride to water due to problems, but the last place in Australia without fluoride is about to add it). I've seen the studies on lycopene, and if you look you will find them in online scientific journals (real ones).

Much of cooked like tomato paste are higher because they are concentrated.

If you want the studies look for them... I don't have time to dig them out for you now, and didn't think I needed to put footnotes on my posts!

Cheers,
Sheryl

[Sheryl]

From one of our articles:
"As people start eating more living food (usually replacing denatured, nutrient poor food) their consumption of important micronutrients tends to increase. Many useful vitamins and minerals are found in higher concentrations in raw food. For example, most people have heard the line about cooked tomatoes being higher in lycopene than raw (by around 18%). What is invariably left out of examples like this though is that that same cooked tomato (by the same USDA figures) loses nearly half of it ’s vitamin A, 65% of vitamin K, 35% of beta carotene and a whopping 100% of it’s alpha carotene7. That’s just on the nutrients measured! As usual nature provides us with more complete sources of nutrition anyway; for example raw seedless watermelon having 150% of the level of lycopene in cooked tomatoes without any damaged essential nutrients.

Aiming for the highest level of vitamin XYZ is not the goal. The goal is health, strength and increased energy to enjoy life! We can pop a pill for more lycopene than even the mighty watermelon; however this is the same thinking that says a bowl of styrofoam sprinkled with vitamin tablets is healthier than a fresh salad. It’s the thousands of (mostly unidentified) nutrients working together that provide the benefits of living food, not just high levels of any one substance.8 To quote the Department of Food Science, and Institute of Comparative and Environmental Toxicology at Cornell University, New York "dietary supplements do not have the same health benefits as a diverse diet rich in fruits and vegetables, because, taken alone, the individual antioxidants studied in clinical trials do not appear to have consistent preventative effects"9

9 Protective role of Phytochemicals in Whole Foods: Implications for Chronic Disease Prevention. Rui Hai Liu, Department of Food Science, and Institute of Comparative and Environmental Toxicology, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA"

[Arky]

Call me a heretic, but under the circumstances (and watermelon notwithstanding), the logical conclusion would be to consume a little cooked tomato with your raw tomato - that way you get the best of both worlds. If one wishes to be pedantic about this, one could argue that the alkaloids, which are concentrated in the skin of nightshades, such as the tomato, are detrimental to joint function and should therefore be removed or should be cooked (which tends to render the alkaloids less harmful). Let's face it, there are sometimes benefits to each mode of eating, it's not all doom and gloom for non-raw (as societies like the Hunzas clearly demonstrate), much though I support the raw ethos in general (and I also recognise that raw-foodists face an uphill struggle in current society). There is a danger, though, in being too anti-cooked, in a reactionary sense, in order to promote the health benefits of raw food, don't you think?

Peace.


J.

[THX-1138]

As for the flouride issue, I agree with the other sentiments that its harmful in the doses that is being put into the water and toothepaste. It is naturally occurring, but too much is toxic.

As for lycopene: all carotenoids (with a few exceptions) are increased when cooked including lycopene, beta carotene, alpha carotene, lutein, and so on. What is occuring is the fibers are being broken up and separated from the carotenoids making them more accessible. Concerning the blended idea, it is possible that the amount of lycopene is equal in blended tomatoes as it is cooked tomatoes since the fiber is being broken up in both. Although I've never heard of this before until now. But it does make sense.

Regardless, carotenoids are the most abundant antioxidant found in food and more isn't necessary. We would never need to worry about carotenoids in nature so it isn't a legitimate argument against raw foodism. And more importantly, the negative side effects would far outweigh the negatives.

[Sheryl]

I've been looking (although I said I wouldn't!). It's definitely in one of the 130 books we just added to our library in the last 2 months... somewhere. Piers thinks it was in one of Gabriel Cousins books. I read it, shared it with him, and we've both seen references to back it up since. When I find it I'll track down this thread and post again.

Cheers,
Sheryl

[Shivananda]

<<I've seen the studies on lycopene, and if you look you will find them in online scientific journals (real ones).

Like I said, Sheryl, I looked, but didn't see them. I found quite a lot of studies and cross studies saying cooked tomatoes are higher in lycopene. I didn't find anything that supports your assertion that blended raw is better. I'm not saying that information doesn't exist, just that I didn't find it.

<<Much of cooked like tomato paste are higher because they are concentrated.

OK, so what? That is one of the timehonored functions of cooking, to remove water and concentrate nutrients. This simply tells me that a serving of conventional spaghetti marinara will have more lycopene for my body to use than a similar sized serving of raw spaghetti marinara. That does not mean that I'll choose one over the other based solely on lycopene content, but it does say to me that blanket statements about raw vs cooked almost never hold up. There are always exceptions, going in both directions. I think this is one of them. Cooked tomato clearly has superior content to raw tomato FOR THAT PARTICULAR NUTRIENT.

<<If you want the studies look for them... I don't have time to dig them out for you now, and didn't think I needed to put footnotes on my posts!

Actually, you do, if you really want anyone who doesn't already agree with you to be convinced by what you're saying. But if you are comfortable just preaching to the choir, then keep on making unsupported statements with no verifiable evidence to back you up.

But look, don't stress over it... that could give you wrinkles! :D

[Shivananda]

for example raw seedless watermelon having 150% of the level of lycopene in cooked tomatoes without any damaged essential nutrients.

Whoaaaaaa, this is what I mean... you're cutting corners on the argument again... I just posted a reliable table of lycopene contents which says the exact opposite, and I said where I found it. Here are the pertinent numbers again:

Tomato Juice 7.83
Tomato Paste 30.07
Pizza sauce 32.9
Spaghetti sauce 17.5
Ketchup 16.6
vs
Watermelon Fresh, red 4.1

In what way is the watermelon level 150% of any of the numbers shown for cooked tomatoes?

[Sheryl]

The figures I quoted are from the USDA nutrient database made available to the public by the USDA government body in the USA. You can look them up there. Nutrient amounts vary widely depending on what produce is tested; tests of organic test much higher too.

If you'd read on to my next post you'd see I just spent about half an hour looking for the study for you... I'm still not happy about the sunshine thread the other day, and reacted more strongly to the questions you asked more so that I would have to anyone else. Maybe it's the masculine femine thing you brought up the other day. Although it's likely not meant this way many of these threads are starting to FEEL hostile to me.

Cheers,
Sheryl

[Shivananda]

Rui Hai Liu, Department of Food Science, and Institute of Comparative and Environmental Toxicology, Cornell University, Ithaca, NY, USA"
This reference made me smile. 7 years ago, after returning from a seminar trip in Scotland, due to a string of bizarre incidents I still do not totally comprehend, I unexpectedly washed up on the shores of Ithaca, New York, and sublet a room from a grad student for the summer. It was up in the gables of a grand old house on State Street, a couple of blocks from the Cornell Campus, and my five other housemates, all women, were all grad students (and one Asst. Prof.) at Cornell. I could easily have walked over to talk to Ms./Mr. Liu from there.

And, with gentle irony, it's fun for me to recall that one of my real stress busters that summer, in between my weekly flights out to parts unknown to lead my seminars, was to piddle around in the garden there tending to my tomatoes and basil and peppers and such. It was, unfortunately, the last time I had access to some real dirt and time to do something with it.

Maybe this year.

And I also recall how much fun it was, after working in the hot sun weeding, to walk down the hill to the gorge and go swimming with many of my neighbors in the cold, cold stream. Hence the bumper sticker, popular in those parts: "Ithaca is Gorges."

And also, I happened to find a real treasure during my brief stay there, at a little guitar store with the most amazing instruments. I found there a rare Guild blond maple F412, the huge 12-string Paul Simon used to play, built around 1980, and in perfect condition. I was just playing it earlier tonight, preparing for a little performance I'm giving tomorrow night at a dinner I'm attending.

Where the tomatoes will all likely be cooked. :)
****
OK, back to the pie throwing, already in progress.

[Shivananda]

>>If you'd read on to my next post you'd see I just spent about half an hour looking for the study for you...

It's that syncronicity thing... I read all posts before responding to any... but you had not posted that second message when I started writing my response to the first. And in the process of replying I stopped and ate dinner. Then when I hit the send button I was surprised to see you had written another post while I was away. So don't take it all so personally!

And I assure you, I really am genuinely interested in this topic. I mentioned it specifically to one of Alissa's associates a couple of weeks ago as a question I'd like Alissa to answer at the training I hope to attend. .

>>Although it's likely not meant this way many of these threads are starting to FEEL hostile to me.

Let me assure you that I am not feeling hostile to you personally, or to anyone else here. But sloppy reasoning just makes me go postal (see the flecks of foam around the edges of my mouth?)

And anyway, if you could see it from my standpoint for a minute, you might notice that there have been a number of closed minded, self-righteous, and/or sometimes just plain nasty posts written, by several different people, in response to things I've posted here.

Ah well, keeps life from getting boring, eh?

Take care, and keep smiling.

[honeybee joy]

From what I have read, the flouride that they put in the water and toothpastes and whatever else they put it in causes hypothyroidism. A long time ago they used to use flouride to treat hyperthyoidism. (Which is high thyroid levels, the flouride would lower it.) In this book I read, they said that studies have been done that show that flouride causes low thyroid levels. They found that the states that have flouride in their water have much higher amounts of people with hypothyroidism. I have hypothyroidism, so when I found this out, I stopped drinking tap water and using the toothpaste that had flouride in it.

[Arky]

I know I've mentioned this eBook quite a lot recently (mostly because it's free and because it covers a very broad range of topics with some interesting insights), but Jon Barron ( http://www.jonbarron.org/documents/lessons.pdf ) provides some truly frightening fluoride statistics therein (how about an 80% increase in rectal cancer, in artificially-fluoridated water areas, for example?), and he's not the 'scaremonger' type - he's just fearlessly laying it on the line for the reader.


J.

[mommamia]

Just now back from vacation and replying:

Thanks so much for the views on flouride and in particular the lycopene. Very interesting on both sides of the lycopene issue and I appreciate hearing the views. I will make my decision on tomato eating accordingly.

I have to say that I have come to the anti flouride decision at last. I have been reading a ton of info and threw out all the toothpaste for good. With the exception of Burt's and ToothSoap.

Thanks so much everyone!

M

[honeybee joy]

Originally Posted By Shivananda

>>Although it's likely not meant this way many of these threads are starting to FEEL hostile to me.

Let me assure you that I am not feeling hostile to you personally, or to anyone else here. But sloppy reasoning just makes me go postal (see the flecks of foam around the edges of my mouth?)

And anyway, if you could see it from my standpoint for a minute, you might notice that there have been a number of closed minded, self-righteous, and/or sometimes just plain nasty posts written, by several different people, in response to things I've posted here.


For some reason today I woke up thinking about this situation. I felt I should comunicate what I thought about it. I have no idea if this situation has been resolved or not, so disregard this if it has.

I was thinking that maybe some on here might be feeling things were feeling hostile to some, might be the way that they are coming out. I can tell you believe strongly in what you say, and who could not respect that. I can tell you enjoy the occasional educational debate, who wouldn't? The only thing I see that might be making people feel that things might be hostile is that you seem to believe that your idea's are the only right one. The feeling I get is that you may feel that everyone should naturaly agree. That is a understandable feeling, because when we believe we are right, we also belive that others should or could see it also. We want them to, for their wellbeing.

I feel I used to be alot like you, extremely opininated, wanted everyone to know what I knew, because I wanted to help. I would get sooo disapointed, because it seemed like everyone was upset with me, and then they would not listen.

One thing I learned though, is sometimes if you phrase things the wrong way, it really turns people off. Then they shut you down, and you have lost the chance to "sell" them on your belief/idea.

I have learned to present it as "my opinion" and if they listen, cool if not, let it go.

I have also learned to alow people to have their own opionion. That was a hard thing for me to learn.

Anyways, I didn't mean for this advise to be ofensive, I just woke up and felt I should tell you that.

I can tell deep down that people like ya, they just might feel they are not being able to have "their" opinions.

We all have to be able to make our own desisions, and be responsible for that. We are not alowing others to be adults if we are not giving that to them.

I have learned that we are all entilted to our own opinion, and that it a beautiful right that we all are happy to have.

One other thing, alot of times, I have learned that if we give others the freedom to disagree, then alot of times the will listen or understand better, because they do not feel pressure to do so.

[Revvell]

Dayum honeybee! Well said and I agree totally! You said it wayyyy better than I could.

Revvell

[karenisraw]

Shivnannadnndandannna,


I like your dialogue.

I believe there is something to this lycopene based soley from my own experiences. I have had a lifelong incredbly beautiful relationship with the following literally eating with a spoon out of the jar or can: tomato paste, spaghetti sauce, sundried tomatoes, tomato puree, stewed tomatos, diced tomatos (canned), any cooked, especially concentrated forms of tomatos. I also am currently eating grapefruit most days and also loooooove watermelon. and when I do get a watermelon, I can easily eat a half a watermelon in one sitting.

I do think I have some type of deficiency that has to do with tomatoes. I do eat raw tomatoes almost daily, but it is often that I really feel the need to eat a jar (literally) of cooked spaghetti sauce (or some type of cooked tomato) in one sitting.

k