I know you've heard it before... B12

[Queenie]

I'm very confused. I read a post on "Another" discussion board in which someone posted an article that did indeed seem well-researched about B12. The only way, according to that article, to get B12 is from animal foods.

B12 deficiency takes up to 20 years to show up in the body, and usually does show up eventually in COOKED vegans. Do we need to take B12 supplements as raw vegans? Does anyone have any evidence that long-term raw vegan diets don't lead to B12 deficiency? Are there any raw foodists out there that have been raw (and Vegan) for 12-20 years straight?

I'm a little tired of the controversy and of hearing people try to tell raw vegans that they need to eat animal products. I don't see the harm in a few organic eggs now and again (having had chickens in the past, they're pretty happy creatures if they're not caged up)... Any thoughts? I'm sorry - I'm not trying to get people on the defense. I'm not advocating eating animal products. I'm just questioning. Thanks !!!

[Guydiane]

Hey Queenie

I eat organic eggs every now and then. Chicken lay eggs regardless of where they are at some are fertile some are not.
Here is a good link that may help you with your question.
http://www.vegansociety.com/html/food/nutrition/b12/

[Queenie]

Guydiane, Thank you so much! I like getting information that is not tainted with prejudice and emotional clinging to a standard that may or may not be realistic. Q

(PS: I really like this posting board, it is my favorite.)

[RowanC]

Queenie, I agree with the previous poster and I do the same. I get them from the local farmer's market or the lady down the street.

The B-12 issue is one to take seriously. If I were you, I'd do a LOT of research online about it. There are many many articles, written from both sides of the camp. And remember, ANYBODY can write an article. Just because it says "blah blah" online does NOT make it true. Pay more attention to the actual research, if any.

I don't think taking B-12 supplements is the answer either. Personally, my body does not assimilate supplements, period. In one day, out the next.

Anyway.. good question.

[Queenie]

RowanC, thanks for the feedback. I agree. And like I said, organic free-range eggs really do not hurt the chickens. What is bad is the factory-farming practices that have become so prevalent in this country and others (I think factory farming is the culprit in the Avian Flu). I think the point is to make sure the animal products are cruelty free and clean...

[wyjoz]

Every time I read that we get B12 from 'beef' COWs I ask my self and how do cows get it????????????????? they eat grass all day and stay in the sun all day. That is my very short version on this subject. Don't start eating 'animal meats' . I strongly believe that it's in trace amounts in 'greens' because we need it in trace amounts. No one has studied how much B12 greens have because it's 'trace' amounts.

One more subject that I'm looking into right now is we are to produce B12 in our stomach ? with right kind of food intake and good bacteria. I'll start saving the information from now on as too many people are looking for it. Joz

[wyjoz]

I have this print out. Purslane is a great source of Omega 3 also. My question is if Pursalene has B1,2,3,5,6 does it have B12? trace amount? and check out parsley, spinach, lambsquarters, dendelions, minerslettuce etc.

Nutritional Information for Purslane,raw
Nutrient Per 100 Grams 1 cup 1 plant RDA Per 100 Grams
Ash g 1.250 0.5375 0.0375 0
Calcium mg 65.000 27.95 1.95 6.5%
Carbohydrates g 3.430 1.4749 0.1029 1.1%
Cholesterol mg 0.000 0 0 0%
Coppper ug 0.113 0.04859 0.00339 0%
Energy KCal 16.000 6.88 0.48 1%
Fiber g 0.000 0 0 0%
Iron mg 1.990 0.8557 0.0597 19.9%
Magnesium mg 68.000 29.24 2.04 17%
Manganese mg 0.303 0.13029 0.00909 15.1%
Monosaturated Fat g 0.000 0 0 0
Phosphorus mg 44.000 18.92 1.32 4.5%
Polysaturated Fat g 0.000 0 0 0
Protein g 1.300 0.559 0.039 2.1%
Refuse (non edible part) g 24 10.32 0.72 0
Saturated Fat g 0.000 0 0 0%
Selenium ug 0.900 0.387 0.027 1.3%
Sodium mg 45.000 19.35 1.35 1.8%
Total Lipids g 0.100 0.043 0.003 0.1%
Vitamin A iu (ug * 5) 1320.000 567.6 39.6 26.4%
Vitamin B1 (Thiamin) mg 0.047 0.02021 0.00141 3.1%
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin) mg 0.112 0.04816 0.00336 6.5%
Vitamin B3 (Niacin) mg 0.480 0.2064 0.0144 2.4%
Vitamin B5 (Pantotheic Acid) mg 0.036 0.01548 0.00108 0.3%
Vitamin B6 (Pyridoxine) mg 0.073 0.03139 0.00219 3.6% Vitamin C mg 21.000 9.03 0.63 35%
Vitamin E mg 0.000 0 0 0%
Vitamin K (Potassium) ug 494.000 212.42 14.82 12.3%
Water g 93.920 40.3856 2.8176 0
Zinc mg 0.170 0.0731 0.0051 1.1%

[Queenie]

wyjoz, thanks for the info. Sea vegetables supposedly have B12, but it is very hard to get from vegetables... Also, it breaks down almost immediately upon entering youir alimentary tract. It's a very weird vitamin. I think that our bodies SHOULD be able to manufacture it the way cows' do, but it's not that simple. For one thing we are completely different than cows.... There are so many different opinions and research on the topic, I think we all need to go by what makes us feel best. I don't feel good emotionally about eating animal, but organic eggs don't bother my conscience.

One issue I deal with is that of CONSTANT hunger. I mean, I could eat forty tablespoons of nut butter a day and still be hungry. I have a VERY fast metabolism. I'm almost 6 feet tall and at the moment - due to the raw diet - I weigh about 130 (I was 143 before). It's NOT enviable. I've been almost 100% raw since valentine's day and I've been trying to do this diet since August but I am CONSTANTLY hungry. Even on Cooked, I'd be ready for a nosh two hours after a huge meal that knocked everyone else out of commission for the rest of the day. It's a PAIN.

If eating a couple of eggs every now and then will keep me raw, then that is what I will do. I wish someone could reassure me that the constant hunger and the skinniness will resolve. I'm totally dedicated to RAW but I hate being this skinny. Oh well. I look better on Raw otherwise. So I'll stop complaining. Right now.

Love you all!

[Queenie]

PS: purslane is amazing, I agree. Dandelions also and Rocket (arugula)... nettles... lady's thumb... anything wild

[Queenie]

Guydiane: I'm very impressed by your numbers (weight loss). I can't get the journal to come up.

Good work though. Q

[THX-1138]

The only way, according to that article, to get B12 is from animal foods.

B12 is the by product of a microorganism and in nature on a raw vegan diet, one would never have to worry about B12 because it grows on root vegetables. Unfortunately, this isn't the case anymore due to the intensive hygenic practices that our produce undergoes in today's society which washes virtually all of the B12 away. Organic, locally grown root vegetables should have some B12 on them since they're not going through the traditional middlemen that the big commercial growers go through. Mushrooms contain B12 as well. And so does seaweed, but its not an active forum, though that doesn't mean that its worthless. B12 from seaweed is still beneficial. All in all, I would still recommend a supplement. The lack of B12 is an unfortunate circumstance in our unnatural environment.

[Queenie]

Hi, THX, manure is a good source! Another way to get B12 is to make sure your garden is well-manured and don't wash the vegetables too thoroughly. But as you said, that's not the case any more.

Most of the manure you buy in the stores has been sterilized. You'd have to get it from your local farmers. Gardens and fields were meant to be manured. Ah well. We need to go back to a more sustainable way of life, no doubt about that...

[Shivananda]

Every time I read that we get B12 from 'beef' COWs I ask my self and how do cows get it????????????????? they eat grass all day and stay in the sun all day.
****
One more subject that I'm looking into right now is we are to produce B12 in our stomach ?

First point, yes, cows produce B12, but their digestive systems are very, very different than ours. I mean, unless you personally have multiple stomachs, and bring food up from your stomach to chew it a second time, and can only digest grass and hay and grain. :)

Second point, no, that is incorect. B12 is actually produced by bacteria in your intestines, not in your stomach. Unfortunately it is not bioavailable to you. It never gets into your bloodstream. You'd have to eat your feces to get it into the part of your digestive system where it can be absorbed. And there are even some vegans who advocate doing precisely that.

Personally I'd rather use brewer's yeast sprinkled on my food, and eat lots of mushrooms and seaweed. I think they taste better.

And I also use a daily sublingual B12 vegan supplement.

[shelah]

shivananda,
this may be a silly question, but if the b12 supplement you take is vegan, then what is the source of the b12 in it and can't we just get it from the same source in our diet? :confused:

[Queenie]

Maybe it's from manure!

LOL!!

[THX-1138]

shivananda,
this may be a silly question, but if the b12 supplement you take is vegan, then what is the source of the b12 in it and can't we just get it from the same source in our diet? :confused:

The vegan B12 supplements are biosynthesized using bacterial enzymes.

[shelah]

thx-1138,
thanks for the info. do you have a website or other source that would give more detail. i'm trying to figure out a way to get the same substance into my system without using a supplement form. i make and eat a large amount of cultured vegetabes, using a starter that is largely l.plantarum. would the resulting cultured veggies contain such "bacterial enzymes"?

[THX-1138]

I don't much other info, but I wouldn't be surprised if B12 could grow and multiply in cultured foods.

[Queenie]

I'd be curious about this. I eat a lot of sauerkraut and kim chee. I know they are high in B-vitamins in general as is Rejuvelac (I can't make or drink that stuff, though) but is B-12 one of them?

our intestinal tracts are supposed to synthesize it, I thought. But apparently we don't make adequate amounts???

[Gosia]

Yes, we've been through this before. I summarized all you need to know about B12 at the following page:
http://www.rawgosia.com/articles/sevenpoints.html
(Warning: there is a lot there to digest. :) )

Gosia.

[Shivananda]

our intestinal tracts are supposed to synthesize it, I thought. But apparently we don't make adequate amounts???

No, we actually produce quite a lot of it. We just cannot use any of what we produce. The B12 you need ALL has to come in via your mouth, and you MUST be dilligent about getting it into your system.

And I cannot emphasize this strongly enough because two of my closest friends, including a woman I deeply love and had hoped for many years to marry, have suffered permanent, irreversible neurological damage because of long term B12 insufficiencies in their vegan diets.

I'll add something here I have not seen posted anywhere else... an old acquaintenance of mine, a former microbiology biology researcher (and PhD) at Univ of Washington in Seattle, wrote an article a long time ago called something like "The Myth of Vegetarianism," in which she demonstrated that traditional vegetarian cultures, like those based on Hinduism in India, had been shown to obtain their B12 from accidentally ingesting the insects which infested their food supply. When these people relocated to modern cultures with high levels of food sanitation, such as by moving from India to London, although their diet remained absolutely unchanged, their B12 levels dropped dramatically, and their illnesses multiplied.

Sounds gross, but apparently having weevils in the lentil bin is actually a good thing. :)

[RowanC]

[QUOTE=Shivananda]No, we actually produce quite a lot of it. We just cannot use any of what we produce. The B12 you need ALL has to come in via your mouth, and you MUST be dilligent about getting it into your system.

QUOTE]

We make it but it's all in the lower colon, where it cannot and is not absorbed. If you test your bm's it's full of it, but I'm not gonna eat it.. nope!

There's actually a pretty good scientific article on B12 and veganism out there if you do a search on it, but I don't wanna get booted off the board, so you're on your own. :D

[Mina]

Shivananda!!!!
How come you know so much about these things. I'm amazed, I love to read your posts and always find them very interesting. I'm glad to have you on our side!!!!!.

[wyjoz]

""" B12 is actually produced by bacteria in your intestines, not in your stomach."""" to me without going into details and lengthy explanations intestines and stomach are so closely interwined that I did not go into details or specifics. But thanks for claryfing this for those that need it. Joz

P.S. Please remember we need it in trace amounts? Then again, no, we are not like cows, so why would I eat a cow that produced B12 but I can't find a live source that I can benefit from? IF WE WERE NOT MEANT TO BE CARNOVORES, than why would I need to consume a 'Filet Mignon'? or cow liver and onions to get cow's B12?

P.S.S. Victoria Boutenko states that she does not supplement. The whole family went though very extensive medical check ups, The doctors were amazed at the results. They were not lacking in anything. No symptoms of any deficiencies.

P.S.S.S. Shivananda states that ""You'd have to eat your feces to get it into the part of your digestive system where it can be absorbed. And there are even some vegans who advocate doing precisely that".
? so does that mean that the B12 from cows actually is derived from the cow's feces? I'm off to eat my 'greens"

[rawpriestess]

My hubby and I do not take suppliments,

we grow our own organic food, eat it straight from the garden, wihtout washing,
we eat mushrooms without washing, they grow in manure, we also kiss our dog and cat on the mouth

I'm sure we get plenty of B12 in there somehow.

we do our best to eat naturally, by that I mean, NOT store bought stuff, and all raw, ripe, fresh and organic, we try to grow all of our own, and will soon, however, we still live in the US, in a cold in winter state, so not quite there yet.

will let you know when we achieve sustainability.

[jenjenn]

I was going to ask you how much you spend on olive oil and such but when u mentioned that you only grow certain kinds because of wheather conditions and where u live Im going to ask you what do u grow? and what do u think people rent can grow?I want to grow stuff but I rent right now and don't know if how and where i can start?

[Ariannah]

The fact that meat eaters and non-vegans DO ALSO get B-12 deficiency (more frequently than vegans I believe) suggests to me that it's not a dietary problem, but an absorption problem.